Convince Me to Stay Catholic!

[jinc1019]

True.

Please be patient with me. It is hard to express what I feel when I have been unknowing like the Samaritan woman. A long time ago, I heard a description of a tired thirsty Jesus whose hands were big, yet scarred from carpentry. The fact that Jesus recognized the foreigner as a person as He was a person (as well as God) has remained with me. My halo is not only tarnished but chipped in places, yet Jesus recognizes me as a person He loves. What I tried to say is that even when someone is not allowed to receive the Eucharist for valid reasons.-- within the environment of the Holy Sacrifice of the Mass, Jesus is present (like He was at the well) and He can minister to us.

It sounded to me like you want to be a Catholic, somewhat like the Samaritan woman who wanted water. The fact that she was not Jewish did not distract Jesus from His mission to all people. At the Holy Sacrifice of the Mass, Jesus is present – Where two or more are gathered… Coming to Mass with the desire for the water of truth is a good way to meet Jesus toe to toe. Perhaps, the truth is in this prayer. Jesus I believe you exist; heal my doubts about Your existence in the Eucharist.

We are people who are complex to the max. The meeting between Jesus and the woman at the well is the opposite in its simplicity. Perhaps, it is time to set aside rational thoughts. Regardless, it is perfectly possible for you to go to the well with your empty bucket. Stay at the Holy Sacrifice of the Mass as long or as short as you wish. Jesus will not check His watch.

I appreciate your advice, I will consider your points very closely. Thank you again and God bless.

 

[jinc1019]

I commend you in your sincerity/desire to follow your conscience. I recommend that the following five paragraphs from a Catholic classic:

THE SPIRIT OF CATHOLICISM
(Father) Karl Adam

… background on the author.

​

From **Chapter XII: The Educative Action of the Church
** and here is online link to the complete book from EWTN’s Library (I have a copy of the book…and it can still be purchase through Amazon…maybe Ignatius Press…or Roman Catholics Books…should you desire to read it/have a copy.

Prayers for you and best wishes
Pax Christi

ewtn.com/library/THEOLOGY/SPIRCATH.HTM

I appreciate the source, it was well written. However, the reality is that whether the Church wants this to happen or not, millions of Catholics are forced to stay and lie or leave if they want any kind of a Christian life. It’s unjust in my view that I should, despite being willing to do all the Church asks, be removed from the community for my internal beliefs based on very real evidence.

If you were a Catholic before the Church removed the requirement to refrain from eating meat on Fridays, and you believed then that such a requirement was incorrect, how unjust it is for that person who was removed from the Church for a belief the Church later adopted itself? I think quite unjust. Yet, this is the world the Catholic Church has created for itself.

 

[jinc1019]

I didn’t mean to suggest rebellion. No, I’m sure that this is more honest and thoughtful than that. I mean that what we see doctrinally is a snapshot of result, not necessarily the sometimes decades of commentary, discussion, or rationale that lead up to it. Have you ever had a conversation with someone that was clearly not as knowledgeable as you on a subject and perhaps biased and thought, “if you actually understood the entirety of this topic, you wouldn’t make such statements”, and know this to be a legitimate thought? All I’m saying is that I would allow room that a pope or cardinal might think that way of me about a particular doctrinal decision. You have to be able to say conclusively that: 1) You possess all public and private information for an issue, 2) I have greater political, theological, spiritual insight than the powers-that-be, 3) I have authority make standard of faith changes, and 4) I accept penitential reprimand to my proposed changes for myself and all others that I may influence. Dissension (like faith) is never just about you, your life influences others, especially since you’ve mentioned ministry.

You very well may be right. But, honesty, how long should I wait before simply recognizing that my beliefs are my beliefs and they are not changing? Five years? Ten years? At some point, I am doing more damage by NOT engaging in a Christian community that I am engaging in the “wrong” one, at least that is how I feel.

 

[jinc1019]

I appreciate all of the support and posts…It seems that a consensus has been reached. Most of you seem to feel that I should stay in the Catholic Church until I come around to your position on these issues. I can understand this position and I appreciate it, but honestly, if I never change my position, your solution would be to simply live a life outside the Church, outside of communion, forever. How could that possibly be better than being in another church? I have studied these issues intensely for years now and I am only now more certain of my beliefs than I was before. I have prayed, I have met with clergy, none of it has convinced me that my positions are incorrect.

I appreciate the suggestions very much, but I think the question initially asked has been answered sufficiently.

 

[R_C]

I am sorry, but no. The Catholic Church does NOT teach what the apostles taught in every instance. In many, yes. In all? No. I gave you an example. How were popes chosen in the early church? By cardinals in Italy? No. What about bishops and priests? They were one order in the early church as St. Jerome himself confirms. This was also a teaching the Catholic Church has changed on.

I have done some more search on the topics you mentioned.

The Western view, that the essence of Priesthood is the offering of Sacrifice, and that the High Priesthood or Episcopate is** only a higher rank of Priesthood, and not a different order**, was current and dominant in St. Jerome’s time, and is still the teaching of Western theologians, and represents the official usage of the Latin Church.

Therefore, there is no break with apostolic tradition here.

Now the election of the Pope.

There was* no fixed process for papal selection* before 1059. The lack of an institutionalized process for papal succession was prone to religious schism, interference from the secular authorities, and led to extensive periods of sede vacante and the presence of several antipopes. The Holy Roman Emperor often directly named the new pope, or the pontiff named his own successor - an invalid election that was subject to the ratification of the legal electors. Even further, the pope was elected by the clergy and the people of the diocese of Rome alone. In 1059, Pope Nicholas II succeeded in limiting future papal electors to the cardinals with In Nomine Domini, creating standardized papal elections that would eventually evolve into the papal conclave.

Therefore, in this case, too, there was no break with tradition.

In all honesty, I think the issue is that you don’t believe in the Church and thus you embrace everything that appears to strike a blow at the Church. On the other hand, I already know that the Church is not a human institution and that her head is Christ, therefore it is only a matter of time, patience, and research before any argument brought forth against her can be charitably refuted.

 

[R_C]

if I never change my position, your solution would be to simply live a life outside the Church, outside of communion, forever. How could that possibly be better than being in another church?

We believe in the Church, that is One, Holy, Catholic, and Apostolic. Going from being a member of the Catholic Church to “being in another church” means committing a grave sin of schism or formal heresy.

And that which you call “our solution” (I don’t see a consensus, here…) is nonsense. The solution for someone who cannot find himself in agreement or understanding with very important tenets of the Christian faith is to submit his intellect and will to the teachings, in the manner of the apostles, until the Spirit deigns to illuminate you with the truth.

Remember what the Church Fathers had to say about leaving the Church.

Ignatius of Antioch: “Do not deceive yourselves, he who adheres to the author of a schism will not possess the kingdom of God.” Cyprianus: “he who leaves the Church of Christ cannot arrive at the rewards of Christ”.

Augustine:

Outside the Catholic Church …] one can have honor, one can have the sacraments, one can sing alleluia, one can answer amen, one can have faith in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Ghost, and preach it too, but never can one find salvation except in the Catholic Church.

Jerome:

As I follow no leader save Christ, so I communicate with none but your blessedness, that is, with the Chair of Peter. For this, I know, is the rock on which the Church is built. …This is the ark of Noah, and he who is not found in it shall perish when the flood prevails. …And as for heretics, I have never spared them

 

[grannymh]

It’s not that I want to conduct the mass, or that I even reject apostolic succession…The problem is I don’t believe the earliest Christians believed the Eucharistic meal was literally the body and blood of Jesus being sacrificed. I believe there is ample evidence to show this, so again, no this has nothing to do with elevating myself.

Re: ."…the Eucharistic meal was literally the body and blood of Jesus being sacrificed." is not common sense or logical.

In the Holy Sacrifice of the Mass, the literal death of Jesus is re-presented in an unbloody manner. I briefly referred to that subject in post 53.
Only once did Jesus hang bleeding on a cross. The Body and Blood of Jesus is present under the appearances of bread and wine so that we can truly receive Him personally and spiritually as our Savior God. Chapter 6, Gospel of John explains the importance of our being united with our Savior.

People need to realize that not every word of the Early Church Fathers and great saints is automatically a Catholic doctrine about the Eucharist. An easy way to check the Early Church Fathers is to use the Index of Citations, page 689, in the Catechism of the Catholic Church, Second Edition.

 

[Ridgerunner]

I doubt I can add anything to this, but I’ll say the following. You expressed your problems with the Church as follows:

“on the issues of supreme papal authority, papal infallibility, and transubstantiation (I do accept some form of the Real Presence, but not the Catholic view), I cannot submit.”

And you’re considering joining some protestand denomination as a result.

Meaning you no disrespect, this seems to me like choking on a gnat but swallowing a whale. You are not intellectually persuaded of papal authority, infallibility or the Catholic version of what transubstantiation, yet you accept (I guess) the other things the Church teaches. Well, that’s, indeed, what protestantism is. It’s “I accept a lot of what the Catholic Church teaches, but I don’t accept X or Y because I can’t persuade myself of the truth of them. I ‘protest’ those parts.” A Catholic accepts what is “Universally” taught, whether he is intellectually convinced of all of it or not.

I have a lot of trouble understanding one turning to protestantism. I can understand atheism much better. People who turn protestant readily accept the much more difficult concepts of the existence of God, of the divinity of Jesus, of His Resurrection, of Grace, of salvation, that the Bible is divinely inspired…all requiring a great deal of acceptance, but not a single one of which can be “proved” beyond disputation, but reject this or that far less difficult teaching. And thus they set themselves apart into one of the many sects that better match what they do not question intellectually, or perhaps start their own.

If you are resolved to become protestant, nothing I or anyone else here can change that. But it just might be worthwhile to first consider why it is that you accept so much yet turn away at so little.

 

[Church_Militant]

You’re wrong on the Real Presence too jinc.
See The Eucharist IS Scriptural

 

[Michael_Francis]

(Please Note: This uploaded content is no longer available.)