Convince Me to Stay Catholic!

[Fragile]

You do realize that if you leave the Catholic Church that you are also leaving the Sacraments, right? You’ll be leaving behind Jesus Himself in the Most Holy Eucharist…

Not if he goes “Orthodox”, according to “The One True Church”, they have valid Sacraments as well, but not the Anglicans, they had them, but lost them somewhere down the line…

 

[Loving_disciple]

I know Catholics that disagree with catholic teachings but they still are obedient to them. No one can agree with everything. It’s fine if you disagree with those doctrines as it is not an issue of salvation. From my experience God wants obedance and from that obedance understanding will come

 

[jinc1019]

Hi OP, Convince you to stay Catholic? Can’t do that, you have free will.

I am the only Catholic in a large protestant family, some devout, some not, so I found your thoughts to be similar to my experiences. My thought is that usually it comes down to how one looks at obedience as virtuous at the end of the day. I view it as liberating, the responsibility of moral certitude is not a burden, nor the potential detriment of wrong establishment of Christian conscience because I follow the teachings (not without failure), but helps me avoid deepening a debt of iniquity caused from wrong development of conscience. So obedience becomes a freeing and liberating virtue.

For some in my family, they have a desire to “establish their own parameters of faith”. They feel obedience to “rules” is a stranglehold and prevents them from flourishing and living up to their potential. Well, the thing is, if you do that, you become morally culpable from your own wrong conscience development (because it was willful) and possibly anyone else that your “ministry” affected that was contrary to the faith (the millstone, right). So, this “false freedom” then becomes a terrible vice, possibly a condemning one.
I liked your statement, “. I am not saying I am absolutely certain I am right”. That is an important one–hang on to it. I’m not suggesting anything about your “rightness”, I’m just glad you’re not taking the definitive, “I’m sure I know more than the Church” tract.

As a Catholic, I don’t get to define and own my faith, in that sense. It preceded me without my (name removed by moderator)ut. Obedience to it is liberating and I LOVE the freedom. I wouldn’t want to ever become a slave to the finite limits of my discerning mind and let my salvation depend on whether my personal intelligence is sufficient. There is a danger in that of saying to God, “If you want me, then provide me the right information and direction” and risk Him saying “I already did, you rejected it because you wanted to be in charge.”

Just my two cents.

I greatly appreciate your “two cents,” and I am glad you can, to some extent, understand where I am coming from. I understand what you mean about obedience, and it’s not obedience that is the problem. It’s determining whether obedience is warranted, whether it is true that I should be obedient, that this obedience is what Jesus commanded. I don’t know about that. There are very good historical reasons to question papal authority, as many Orthodox Christians on this forum can explain with great passion, and I happen to believe very firmly, based on the evidence, that they are right on that issue. I appreciate your comments, but this idea that this is somehow about rebelling against authority for rebellion’s sake is just not true.

 

[robwar]

I have done this a great deal…and the more I have studied after praying, the more convinced I am of my position.

I am not sure how you have come up with your conclusions but why don’t you ask God “I believe but help my unbelief” and then find a good spiritual advisor.

 

[jinc1019]

You do realize that if you leave the Catholic Church that you are also leaving the Sacraments, right? You’ll be leaving behind Jesus Himself in the Most Holy Eucharist and you’ll also be leaving the Sacrament of Reconciliation which is the means God has provided by which we can be reconciled to Him after committing a mortal sin. You’ll also leave behind the Sacrament of the Anointing of the Sick and any other Sacraments that you are eligible to receive. Keep in mind that you will also be leaving behind the Holy Mass which is the most powerful prayer on earth and is the sacrifice of our Lord.

First of all, if I stay in the Catholic Church, I am not allowed to have the sacraments anyway! So your point really doesn’t apply. I wish that wasn’t the case, but it is the way the Church operates and I can’t control that. Additionally, as I already mentioned, I do not believe we are sacrificing Jesus at the Mass, so that isn’t the issue either.

 

[R_C]

I have studied the scriptures and tradition very closely, read all of the great classic and modern Catholic apologists, and despite all of this, on the issues of supreme papal authority, papal infallibility, and transubstantiation (I do accept some form of the Real Presence, but not the Catholic view), I cannot submit.

You cannot, or you refuse to? I sense a bit of pride, here. What you believe is in fact quite irrelevant and quite meaningless, for you and I are but two small specks of dust. The fact is that the Catholic Church is quite special, and if you take a small step back and look at the big picture, you will realize that when a teaching is heard, you have only one choice: either leave or bow your head like Peter and the apostles and say: “to whom shall we go? Only you have the words of eternal life”.

Here is my invitation to you: by a heroic act of obedience, submit will and intellect to those three teachings.

 

[jinc1019]

I would also recommend reading on the following websites:

staycatholic.com/

catholicscomehome.org/

catholic.com/

God bless,
Holly

Thank you for the sources, I have used them all extensively already and they are good websites I would recommend.

 

[jinc1019]

I know Catholics that disagree with catholic teachings but they still are obedient to them. No one can agree with everything. It’s fine if you disagree with those doctrines as it is not an issue of salvation. From my experience God wants obedance and from that obedance understanding will come

I would gladly do this, but the Catholic Church is actually quite clear that you must BELIEVE in these things as well as be obedient. If you don’t believe in them, you cannot receive the sacraments. It’s not about simple obedience.

 

[Steve_Jay]

Hello jinc1019,
you might not like all that you read in this post but what I say here is in your best interest and well being.

The Roman Catholic church is the Bride of Christ. Do you accept that truth?
Jesus as the groom loves his Bride. It isn’t everyone within the Bride that listens to the Holy Spirit. That is why we have the pope. If all were to listen to the Holy Spirit then the bride would not need a pope. Last year, for example, Jesus did a no show on May 21st. The end result was that many lost faith and there were suicides too. People being guided by dangerous false prophets. Jesus told St. Peter to feed his sheep. That same Peter headed an election for a successor for Judas. It’s in the book of Acts. So it would be even more important that St. Peter had successors
Go oin to any Catholic Church and you will see images that place Jesus at the very centre. That’s where Jesus should be. Not only in a church building but also in our hearts.
Jesus prayed that his followers may all be one. How can we all be one if we all go in different directions? Imagine a Bride going up the alter with feet that don’t know which way to go. The Groom is right in front of her. She would look stupid and clumbsy.
What is more important? Jesus or our differences? If we allow our differences to keep us apart then our differences are made more important than Jesus.
You stay with the Church where you are safe. You make the decision to do that and allow God to reveal to you the sense behind the things that currently don’t make sense to you.

 

[jinc1019]

You cannot, or you refuse to? I sense a bit of pride, here. What you believe is in fact quite irrelevant and quite meaningless, for you and I are but two small specks of dust. The fact is that the Catholic Church is quite special, and if you take a small step back and look at the big picture, you will realize that when a teaching is heard, you have only one choice: either leave or bow your head like Peter and the apostles and say: “to whom shall we go? Only you have the words of eternal life”.

Here is my invitation to you: by a heroic act of obedience, submit will and intellect to those three teachings.

As I already mentioned, it’s not about obedience. Catholics that make this argument don’t understand the teachings of the Church. You cannot just be obedient, you must also BELIEVE in these teachings. I can’t force myself to believe in something when all of the evidence I see points in the opposite direction. So many Catholics accuse me of being prideful, but in my experience, devout Catholics are often the most prideful people I know, because no matter what evidence is presented to them, they hold to their own beliefs given by the Church. There is ample evidence to suggest, for instance, that bishops and priests are one order, not two as the Catholic Church says. Even St. Jerome, a Catholic saint, believed this and wrote extensively on the subject. Yet, Catholics today will reject the notion outright without even examining the evidence.

 

[jinc1019]

Hello jinc1019,
you might not like all that you read in this post but what I say here is in your best interest and well being.

The Roman Catholic church is the Bride of Christ. Do you accept that truth?
Jesus as the groom loves his Bride. It isn’t everyone within the Bride that listens to the Holy Spirit. That is why we have the pope. If all were to listen to the Holy Spirit then the bride would not need a pope. Last year, for example, Jesus did a no show on May 21st. The end result was that many lost faith and there were suicides too. People being guided by dangerous false prophets. Jesus told St. Peter to feed his sheep. That same Peter headed an election for a successor for Judas. It’s in the book of Acts. So it would be even more important that St. Peter had successors
Go oin to any Catholic Church and you will see images that place Jesus at the very centre. That’s where Jesus should be. Not only in a church building but also in our hearts.
Jesus prayed that his followers may all be one. How can we all be one if we all go in different directions? Imagine a Bride going up the alter with feet that don’t know which way to go. The Groom is right in front of her. She would look stupid and clumbsy.
What is more important? Jesus or our differences? If we allow our differences to keep us apart then our differences are made more important than Jesus.
You stay with the Church where you are safe. You make the decision to do that and allow God to reveal to you the sense behind the things that currently don’t make sense to you.

I appreciate the advice greatly! Thank you.

 

[R_C]

As I already mentioned, it’s not about obedience. Catholics that make this argument don’t understand the teachings of the Church. You cannot just be obedient, you must also BELIEVE in these teachings. I can’t force myself to believe in something when all of the evidence I see points in the opposite direction. So many Catholics accuse me of being prideful, but in my experience, devout Catholics are often the most prideful people I know, because no matter what evidence is presented to them, they hold to their own beliefs given by the Church. There is ample evidence to suggest, for instance, that bishops and priests are one order, not two as the Catholic Church says. Even St. Jerome, a Catholic saint, believed this and wrote extensively on the subject. Yet, Catholics today will reject the notion outright without even examining the evidence.

No, it is you who don’t understand the teachings of the Church and of Christ.

When Christ spoke of giving His flesh as true food, to be “chewed” (that’s the term he used), many of his disciples abandoned him. The apostles, mind you, had no idea of whatever he meant, so Peter - being their leader and also a bold man - simply told Him:

“This teaching is hard! Who can hear it?”

And Christ very simply replied: “Do you want to leave me as well?”

The decision of Peter and the Apostles to follow Christ here was not based on belief of the specific idea, but on belief in Him.

Now, if you understood what the Church is, then you would obviously understand why it would be a heroic act to submit yourself by obedience. But since you do not believe in the Church - as our Profession of Faith requires - then you are willing to depart. Well then do so. Join some schismatic community, or some novel heretical church. Or even better, come up with your own doctrine. That’s what is done by those who don’t believe in the Church.

It is not a matter of pride to reject all ideas that are contrary to the teachings of the Church, because this is the commandment we have received from Christ Himself, who commissioned the apostles so that “those who hear them hear him, and those who reject them reject him”, and he told us through s. Paul to “hold on to the tradition we have received, whether by word of mouth or by writing.” We don’t pick and choose according to our own fancies, we follow what the Church, our Mother and Teacher, has passed down to us through the solid apostolic tradition.

I renew my invitation once more.

 

[georget]

Funny how so many people can be so well read about the same subject and come to such different conclusions.Anyway, I suspect this may sound simplistic to you and perhaps it is, but to me this is not a thing of the head, it’s a thing of the heart.
My God bless you on your journey
I will say a prayer for you.

 

[grannymh]

I was born and raised Catholic, but my parents were hardly devout. For most of my life, I wouldn’t have even considered myself a Christian. However, about 2 years ago, I became a Christian and began really closely examining the various denominations and beliefs within Christianity, as many of my forum posts on this site have shown. I started out rather skeptical when it came to Catholicism, but one by one, as I began really studying the Church fathers, my theological views began to come in line with traditional Catholicism. However, as some of you may know, there are certain issues that I simply CANNOT accept regarding Catholicism.

I have studied the scriptures and tradition very closely, read all of the great classic and modern Catholic apologists, and despite all of this, on the issues of supreme papal authority, papal infallibility, and transubstantiation (I do accept some form of the Real Presence, but not the Catholic view), I cannot submit. I have prayed to St. Peter, I have spent countless hours in private prayer, I have spoken to numerous and devout Catholics, as well as clergymen, and I cannot accept those three things as the Catholic Church teaches them. I am now at the point where I can’t go to Church and participate as a normal member of the Church without essentially feeling dishonest. I don’t partake of the Eucharist, and I want desperately to be apart of a Christian community.

snip due to length requirements for a post

So while it is true I have three major doctrinal disagreements with the Church that have only been further confirmed over time and through research, I do love much about the Catholic Church. At this point though, I just feel like moving on to another church. I have carefully considered this over the last year especially and I feel that I have no other choice but to leave. Before I do though, I am going to speak to everyone I know, including priests, and this forum is apart of that process. So what is your position on those staying in the Church despite having irreconcilable differences?

Am I really better off as a Christian staying in the Church as an outsider who is not eligible to engage in any kind of a ministry, to partake of the Eucharist, or to be truly and completely apart of the Church? Aren’t I better off finding a church with apostolic succession and being more involved there? Am I really better off spending a lifetime in the Church as an outsider who is unable to engage in a full Catholic life? Your thoughts and prayers are greatly appreciated.

Just as a note, I am NOT interested in engaging in a debate about the problems I have with the Church. I am confident in these positions and I am very well read on them. The problem isn’t the information. I have come to these conclusions based on a ton of evidence. I am not saying I am absolutely certain I am right, but I am saying that my position isn’t going to change…or at least for the sake of the current issue, please act like my position is not going to change on these issues.

One of the four Marks of the Catholic Church is that the Catholic Church is Holy.

Our Church is seen as Holy because it witnesses with fidelity to the Gospel of Jesus, Whose Holy Presence continues within the Church. Jesus promised His Holy Presence at the “Great Commission” following His Resurrection. He specifically told us that He would not leave us orphans at the Last Supper.

Jesus calls all to a holy life. We are holy because we are united with Our Lord Jesus in the Sacrament of Baptism. Yet, in honesty, we know that our bit of holiness is imperfect. The Catholic Church acknowledges our sinfulness with the Sacrament of Reconciliation and then it continues the Good Shepherd’s search for us with the Sacrament of the Eucharist.

I wonder how long Jesus sat at the well, waiting for the Samaritan woman to come to Him. And when she arrived, with the simple task of drawing water, He gently asked her for a drink. She had nothing in common with Him. Yet, she continued the conversation acknowledging that the Messiah would eventually come. Jesus said to her and to you and me: “I am He, the One Who is speaking with you.”

To answer your question --"Am I really better off as a Christian staying in the Church as an outsider who is not eligible to engage in any kind of a ministry, to partake of the Eucharist, or to be truly and completely apart of the Church? Am I really better off spending a lifetime in the Church as an outsider who is unable to engage in a full Catholic life? "

At the well, Jesus was patient with the woman’s questions. She asked Him, “How can you a Jew, ask me, a Samaritan woman, for a drink?” Jesus answered her with love.

For me, being able to sit in the presence of Jesus, empty bucket at my side, is priceless. Many of us are “Samaritans” one way or another. When we physically come near Him in the Catholic Church building, even with our lack of belief in this or that, Jesus welcomes us in love. When the Samaritan woman questioned Him, Jesus listened. He will not do less for us.

Jesus Christ is present in the Gospel during the Holy Sacrifice of the Mass. He is present in the congregation as we pray, sing, and receive His Body and Blood. Even when some of us choose not to receive the Eucharist, Jesus Christ is in our midst. His Presence is precious.

It was not dishonest for the Samaritan women to come to the well for water. Jesus was not dishonest in speaking with her. Coming to the Holy Sacrifice of the Mass, with recognition of one’s own position, is honesty at its best. All of us can learn from the woman at the well.

(Sources: Matthew 28: 16-20; Chapters 4, 6, and 14, Gospel of John)

 

[Inego_de_Loyola]

To whom would you go? The Church of Christ is one, holy, catholic, and apostolic. The Anglicans are none of these and the EO are neither one nor catholic. It is useful to note that only one church bears all these marks, and this is it.

Do you believe in the authority of the ecumenical councils?

 

[Z_Ninja]

Just as a note, I am NOT interested in engaging in a debate about the problems I have with the Church. I am confident in these positions and I am very well read on them. The problem isn’t the information. I have come to these conclusions based on a ton of evidence. I am not saying I am absolutely certain I am right, but I am saying that my position isn’t going to change…or at least for the sake of the current issue, please act like my position is not going to change on these issues.

If you say your position isn’t going to change, then per the title of this thread, no one will be able to “convince” you to stay Catholic. As another poster stated, we all have free will and you have chosen to not believe in those issues. All I can offer is to pray for guidance by the Holy Spirit. The Catholic Church allows us to use our reasoning combined with faith, so keep searching and learning. Spirituality is certainly a lifelong process. I pray you find what you are looking for, and if you do come into full communion with the Catholic Church, she will always welcome you back.

 

[Steve_Jay]

I appreciate the advice greatly! Thank you.

You are welcome.
there is something else that has come to me that I want to put to you.

The last supper took place 2000 years ago. That was Jesus’ last meal before he suffered. That’s before our lifetime. Jesus is our greatest friend. Had we have had the opportunity to be at the last supper with him, would we join him in his last meal on his invitation to be there? I think you would say yes to that. Wouldn’t you?
So would you just be there or would you accept the bread he offered and the wine he offered? Would you join in with the apostles? Or would you go away and break bread and drink wine somewhere else? The mass presents our chance at Jesus invitation to be there at the last supper with him. “This is my body.” “This is my blood…” Jesus said it. So he is present.

 

[Pax]

I was born and raised Catholic, but my parents were hardly devout. For most of my life, I wouldn’t have even considered myself a Christian. However, about 2 years ago, I became a Christian and began really closely examining the various denominations and beliefs within Christianity, as many of my forum posts on this site have shown. I started out rather skeptical when it came to Catholicism, but one by one, as I began really studying the Church fathers, my theological views began to come in line with traditional Catholicism. However, as some of you may know, there are certain issues that I simply CANNOT accept regarding Catholicism.

I have studied the scriptures and tradition very closely, read all of the great classic and modern Catholic apologists, and despite all of this, on the issues of supreme papal authority, papal infallibility, and transubstantiation (I do accept some form of the Real Presence, but not the Catholic view), I cannot submit. I have prayed to St. Peter, I have spent countless hours in private prayer, I have spoken to numerous and devout Catholics, as well as clergymen, and I cannot accept those three things as the Catholic Church teaches them. I am now at the point where I can’t go to Church and participate as a normal member of the Church without essentially feeling dishonest. I don’t partake of the Eucharist, and I want desperately to be apart of a Christian community.

So why not just join the United Methodists, conservative Anglicans, evangelicals, etc.? For several reasons. First, I believe that schism is not what Jesus intended in Christianity generally and should be avoided at all costs. Second, I believe that in the world we live in today, a united, international, and powerful Christian voice is essential in the world, and only the Catholic Church has the ability to stand against some of the threats presented by radical Islam (not moderate) and extreme secularists like those who want to eliminate Christmas and all remnants of our Christian heritage. Third, I believe that, along with the Eastern Orthodox Church, the Catholic Church is unwilling to compromise its central beliefs no matter what. Even the very conservative Southern Baptist Convention supported abortion in the 1970s. Fourth, I agree with MUCH of Catholic theology, including devotion to Mary, the creeds, seven sacraments, infant baptism, apostolic succession (although my view tends to merge priests and bishops into one class), praying to the saints, and various other beliefs as well.

So while it is true I have three major doctrinal disagreements with the Church that have only been further confirmed over time and through research, I do love much about the Catholic Church. At this point though, I just feel like moving on to another church. I have carefully considered this over the last year especially and I feel that I have no other choice but to leave. Before I do though, I am going to speak to everyone I know, including priests, and this forum is apart of that process. So what is your position on those staying in the Church despite having irreconcilable differences?

Am I really better off as a Christian staying in the Church as an outsider who is not eligible to engage in any kind of a ministry, to partake of the Eucharist, or to be truly and completely apart of the Church? Aren’t I better off finding a church with apostolic succession and being more involved there? Am I really better off spending a lifetime in the Church as an outsider who is unable to engage in a full Catholic life? Your thoughts and prayers are greatly appreciated.

Just as a note, I am NOT interested in engaging in a debate about the problems I have with the Church. I am confident in these positions and I am very well read on them. The problem isn’t the information. I have come to these conclusions based on a ton of evidence. I am not saying I am absolutely certain I am right, but I am saying that my position isn’t going to change…or at least for the sake of the current issue, please act like my position is not going to change on these issues.

jinc 1019 in Christ,

You are in my prayers.

God bless.

 

[jinc1019]

No, it is you who don’t understand the teachings of the Church and of Christ.

When Christ spoke of giving His flesh as true food, to be “chewed” (that’s the term he used), many of his disciples abandoned him. The apostles, mind you, had no idea of whatever he meant, so Peter - being their leader and also a bold man - simply told Him:

“This teaching is hard! Who can hear it?”

And Christ very simply replied: “Do you want to leave me as well?”

The decision of Peter and the Apostles to follow Christ here was not based on belief of the specific idea, but on belief in Him.

Now, if you understood what the Church is, then you would obviously understand why it would be a heroic act to submit yourself by obedience. But since you do not believe in the Church - as our Profession of Faith requires - then you are willing to depart. Well then do so. Join some schismatic community, or some novel heretical church. Or even better, come up with your own doctrine. That’s what is done by those who don’t believe in the Church.

It is not a matter of pride to reject all ideas that are contrary to the teachings of the Church, because this is the commandment we have received from Christ Himself, who commissioned the apostles so that “those who hear them hear him, and those who reject them reject him”, and he told us through s. Paul to “hold on to the tradition we have received, whether by word of mouth or by writing.” We don’t pick and choose according to our own fancies, we follow what the Church, our Mother and Teacher, has passed down to us through the solid apostolic tradition.

I renew my invitation once more.

Your assumption is that the Church’s teachings on everything is the same as those the apostle taught. Yet, all of the evidence suggests that bishops and priests are of one order, not two as the Catholic Church teaches (just one example). The Catholic Church has completely rejected its own tradition in numerous instances, this being just one. Last I checked, the Bishop of Rome was not initially chosen by “cardinals.” Did the Church hold true to its tradition in this instance? No. And you don’t care.

 

[jinc1019]

One of the four Marks of the Catholic Church is that the Catholic Church is Holy.

Our Church is seen as Holy because it witnesses with fidelity to the Gospel of Jesus, Whose Holy Presence continues within the Church. Jesus promised His Holy Presence at the “Great Commission” following His Resurrection. He specifically told us that He would not leave us orphans at the Last Supper.

Jesus calls all to a holy life. We are holy because we are united with Our Lord Jesus in the Sacrament of Baptism. Yet, in honesty, we know that our bit of holiness is imperfect. The Catholic Church acknowledges our sinfulness with the Sacrament of Reconciliation and then it continues the Good Shepherd’s search for us with the Sacrament of the Eucharist.

I wonder how long Jesus sat at the well, waiting for the Samaritan woman to come to Him. And when she arrived, with the simple task of drawing water, He gently asked her for a drink. She had nothing in common with Him. Yet, she continued the conversation acknowledging that the Messiah would eventually come. Jesus said to her and to you and me: “I am He, the One Who is speaking with you.”

To answer your question --"Am I really better off as a Christian staying in the Church as an outsider who is not eligible to engage in any kind of a ministry, to partake of the Eucharist, or to be truly and completely apart of the Church? Am I really better off spending a lifetime in the Church as an outsider who is unable to engage in a full Catholic life? "

At the well, Jesus was patient with the woman’s questions. She asked Him, “How can you a Jew, ask me, a Samaritan woman, for a drink?” Jesus answered her with love.

For me, being able to sit in the presence of Jesus, empty bucket at my side, is priceless. Many of us are “Samaritans” one way or another. When we physically come near Him in the Catholic Church building, even with our lack of belief in this or that, Jesus welcomes us in love. When the Samaritan woman questioned Him, Jesus listened. He will not do less for us.

Jesus Christ is present in the Gospel during the Holy Sacrifice of the Mass. He is present in the congregation as we pray, sing, and receive His Body and Blood. Even when some of us choose not to receive the Eucharist, Jesus Christ is in our midst. His Presence is precious.

It was not dishonest for the Samaritan women to come to the well for water. Jesus was not dishonest in speaking with her. Coming to the Holy Sacrifice of the Mass, with recognition of one’s own position, is honesty at its best. All of us can learn from the woman at the well.

(Sources: Matthew 28: 16-20; Chapters 4, 6, and 14, Gospel of John)

Excellent post. I appreciate the thoughts. However, the Church does not allow Christians to receive the Eucharist who do not believe in the doctrine of transubstantiation.