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1Tim215Mommy
Guest
What about them will answer my question to you?
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dzheremi
Guest
No, nothing has changed: Cardinal Kasper is still wrong.
M
marywarfield
Guest
My answer was in response to the claim made that
nothing in RC doctrine etc created unity. Had nothing
to do actually with OC.
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1Tim215Mommy
Guest
Catholic Church is made up of what 27 different churches & rites, various creeds (at least 2 conflicting), multiple liturgies, multiple patriarchs, at least 2 sets of Canon Law, differing beliefs - even about the Trinity (Filioque vs. no Filioque & Christ’s 2 Natures vs. 1 Nature).
Where is the unity?
If the unity is in the person of the Pope, what’s the point of having a Pope who allows complete chaos as long as you pledge allegience to him?
M
marywarfield
Guest
That takes us all the way back to an earlier discussion
on abortion birth control. Lots and lots of Orthodox
women believe the Orthodox Church makes birth control
a matter between husband and wife and not a sin
I have never met an RC woman who did NOT
think birth control was viewed by the Church as a sin whether or not they agreed.
Why? One Head.
It would seem it is much easier for Orthodox to
become confused on these issues.
M
marywarfield
Guest
Really? Really? Within the TWO in accord with
the Pope none of that exists. I really think you should
check your facts. There are two Catholic branches in accord
with the Pope- Rome (west) and the East.
Those with the serious issues you describe are the
Orthodox.
As far as different liturgical languages practices really?
Speaking Swahili rather than Dnglish is disunity?
Giving Communion on a spoon instead of the hand
is disunity? Really?
Come on people. Get real.
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dzheremi
Guest
A question that I’m sure must weigh on every Orthodox Christian considering Rome’s claims, 1Tim215Mommy. An Indian Orthodox friend of mine once observed that the only true heresy according to Rome is ecclesiological. Many things are permitted in the Roman communion that are not permitted in Orthodoxy, as unity in the RCC revolves around an agreed ecclesiological vision that has at its center the Pope of Rome (just look at the several replies in the “What does Eastern Catholicism offer that Eastern Orthodoxy doesn’t?” thread that say “unity with Peter” or some variant thereof, by which the respondents mean the See of Rome), rather than the opposite situation in Orthodoxy where agreed Theology and Christology informs our communion while allowing relative freedom in each autocephalous church to maintain its own hierarchy, traditions, etc. without submission to any external central authority beyond what the Fathers have laid down for all of us to follow (regardless of which particular jurisdiction we belong to).
Perhaps a harsh assessment in some ways, and certainly not one I would ever expect anyone here to agree with, but just the same I have yet to hear anything from faithful Catholics of any particular church or rite that leads me to doubt the fundamental truth of this observation.
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marywarfield
Guest
-]/-]
is you are looking for?
Because for the life of me the only sign of unity
I have ever witnessed in Orthodoxy is dislike of the
Pope. Other than that- practice. Doctrines, moral
teachings, catechisms- evangelizing- Orthodoxy
is a total chaos.
Orthodoxy is very good at critiquing Rome. But not itself.
If I walk into a planned patenthoid clinic and ask two
Greek Irthodox women if tubal ligation is sinful I will
experience has shown get TWO different answers.
And again I ask you- did all Orthodox agree with
Putin as a sterling example of human rights defense
the other day with the Russian Orthodox standing
by his side? Really? Are all Orthodox unified with
Russian Orthodox that Russia has human rights
down well?
Really?
I’m sorry. Can you explain where or what this “unity”
is you are looking for?
Because for the life of me the only sign of unity
I have ever witnessed in Orthodoxy is dislike of the
Pope. Other than that- practice. Doctrines, moral
teachings, catechisms- evangelizing- Orthodoxy
is a total chaos.
Orthodoxy is very good at critiquing Rome. But not itself.
If I walk into a planned patenthoid clinic and ask two
Greek Irthodox women if tubal ligation is sinful I will
experience has shown get TWO different answers.
And again I ask you- did all Orthodox agree with
Putin as a sterling example of human rights defense
the other day with the Russian Orthodox standing
by his side? Really? Are all Orthodox unified with
Russian Orthodox that Russia has human rights
down well?
Really?
M
marywarfield
Guest
And here is another example.
In thirty minutes a Melkite will attend Mass with a Lithuanian
in an RC Church in California with a predominately
Spanish and Italian congregation. Our priest will be
an Indian from India from the Eastern Catholic Syro
Malabar Rite.
We will profess the same Creed, read the same word,
drink from the same Cup, partake of the Same Bread,
and upholding the same Christ and His Same Authority
on earth with the same understanding of doctrine and
morals in complete unity with the RC in the next
town, the next state, Europe or anywhere else.
Our readings , Gospels, and prayers again will be
the same.
There is not ONE Orthodox Church on earth anywhere
that will be that diverse or that unified.
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Peter_J
Guest
It was meant less as a serious answer to your question than a light-hearted response to the idea that Catholics are disunited.
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Peter_J
Guest
Hi Steve b.
But, unfortunately, I don’t know the answer to your question.
I’m definitely glad to hear that you think of it in that way.
But, unfortunately, I don’t know the answer to your question.
K
kotim
Guest
Unity is a very difficult issue due to the length of time, that there has been separation. Also many of the supposed issues such as purgatory, filoque etc are in reality non issues. The reality is that Eastern Orthodoxy and Catholicism are so similar that for the vast majority of people who are born in one or the other it would make no difference to their life of faith.
Any examination of E/Orthodox or Catholicism or indeed Oriental Orthodoxy will find that most differences are really only nuances as far as leading a spiritual life. We might say that the Eucharist is the pinnacle of faith proclamation and living and all three of the above have the same attitude regarding that.
Effectively it all boils down to Unity with the Bishop of Rome. For those that seek it a decision is made and go with it. For eg. I am sure that if Orthodoxy said yes the Catholics are right and we shall rejoin with Rome, then for 99% of Eastern Orthodox it would actually make no difference to how they live and practice their faith.
That ultimately is why the issue is so hard because there would be very little change in peoples lives, so why change.
Any examination of E/Orthodox or Catholicism or indeed Oriental Orthodoxy will find that most differences are really only nuances as far as leading a spiritual life. We might say that the Eucharist is the pinnacle of faith proclamation and living and all three of the above have the same attitude regarding that.
Effectively it all boils down to Unity with the Bishop of Rome. For those that seek it a decision is made and go with it. For eg. I am sure that if Orthodoxy said yes the Catholics are right and we shall rejoin with Rome, then for 99% of Eastern Orthodox it would actually make no difference to how they live and practice their faith.
That ultimately is why the issue is so hard because there would be very little change in peoples lives, so why change.
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dzheremi
Guest
I’m not looking for it. I’m living in it already.
Hmm. I don’t know where you got this impression, but the Roman Pope is not a factor in any way in Orthodoxy, since he is not Orthodox.
As you see it. Orthodox look at Catholics and say essentially the same thing.
Why are you going to Planned Parenthood to ask two random Greek Orthodox laywomen about tubal litigation? This makes no sense, and has nothing to do with anything in the post you replied to.
More irrelevance. What does Putin have to do with anything? Should I ask you if all Roman Catholics agree with Berlusconi’s supposed sexcapades, since he’s Catholic too? That would be silly. You are being silly. Please try to write on-topic replies if you are going to respond to my posts. I am not a fan of this kind of posting and am unlikely to respond to more of it in the future, as it is tiresome to field all of these out-of-left-field attacks in response to a post that only said that our different communions have different ways of envisioning unity.
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marywarfield
Guest
Denial of all things I see. Along with rudeness.
That’s a form of unity I have found with the orthodox. Kudos
to your unity of denial.
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dzheremi
Guest
Hmm. Sorry, I didn’t see that you split your reply into two posts.
As for your claim that “there is not ONE Orthodox Church on earth anywhere
that will be that diverse or that unified”, it is clear that you write from a position of extreme ignorance regarding the Orthodox Church and its faithful, and while it would not take much to demonstrate how incredibly wrong you are, I’ve already been through this approximately a million times with Latins and Byzantines alike. You want to think you invented the wheel and that everything is but a pale imitation of your church? Fine. It is nothing to me or any other Orthodox person one way or another. But you do not know Orthodoxy, and your criticism of it ring hollow to anyone who has ever approached it without the intention of feeling superior and right about their own, non-Orthodox choices.
Well, I’ll give you that that is a lot of different…stuff…different people or whatever. But I’ve written on here before about what I see as the falsehood of looking at Christianity in terms of all the neat stuff out there, and hence missing some fine distinctions in the hurry to claim all things as yours, as though the Catholic Church is the Borg or something. For instance, the “Syro-Malabar” priest you mention…you know his liturgical tradition comes from the Nestorians, right? Meaning that before the Latins showed up in India, there were basically only ACoE-affiliated churches in that area (with the possible exception of Syriac Orthodox as evidenced by some 6th century artifacts from Goa as well as further south, such as Syriac inscriptions bearing the words “Yoldath Aloho” – West Syriac for “Theotokos”, a term that the ACoE reject). The ACoE have never acquiesced to Roman (Eastern or Western) ideas of what the Church should be, with their independence from both Rome and Byzantium being documented at least as far as the Synod of Dadisho in 424 AD. So it’s not quite as simple as saying “look at all the people we have in our communion” if you don’t know their histories and simply assume that they somehow naturally arrived at communion with your Pope and the ecclesiological principles that currently hold sway in the RCC. The history of Latin interaction with India which led to the creation of these various churches (like similar histories elsewhere) is a controversial one, so I will refrain from saying anything more than what I have already said, and adding that much of the diversity celebrated by Roman Catholics today comes similarly from the carving up of national and regional churches in the East – churches whose full histories are generally neither known nor appreciated by the apologists such as yourself who use them as tokens of diversity against a supposedly homogenous Orthodoxy (which begs the question of how you can write the things you’ve written when the only reason you have the “diversity” you now claim that we don’t is because we had it first before the Portuguese, the French, the whoever came to these places where there were already Christians of various confessions living, but anyway…c’est la vie, spilt milk, and so forth).
As for your claim that “there is not ONE Orthodox Church on earth anywhere
that will be that diverse or that unified”, it is clear that you write from a position of extreme ignorance regarding the Orthodox Church and its faithful, and while it would not take much to demonstrate how incredibly wrong you are, I’ve already been through this approximately a million times with Latins and Byzantines alike. You want to think you invented the wheel and that everything is but a pale imitation of your church? Fine. It is nothing to me or any other Orthodox person one way or another. But you do not know Orthodoxy, and your criticism of it ring hollow to anyone who has ever approached it without the intention of feeling superior and right about their own, non-Orthodox choices.
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Vico
Guest
The Catechism of the Catholic Church provide insight into this topic. ** I. THE CHURCH IS ONE **
** “The sacred mystery of the Church’s unity” (**Unitatis redintegratio 2)
813 The Church is one because of her source: "the highest exemplar and source of this mystery is the unity, in the Trinity of Persons, of one God, the Father and the Son in the Holy Spirit."259 The Church is one because of her founder: for "the Word made flesh, the prince of peace, reconciled all men to God by the cross, . . . restoring the unity of all in one people and one body."260 The Church is one because of her “soul”: "It is the Holy Spirit, dwelling in those who believe and pervading and ruling over the entire Church, who brings about that wonderful communion of the faithful and joins them together so intimately in Christ that he is the principle of the Church’s unity."261 Unity is of the essence of the Church:
What an astonishing mystery! There is one Father of the universe, one Logos of the universe, and also one Holy Spirit, everywhere one and the same; there is also one virgin become mother, and I should like to call her "Church."262
814 From the beginning, this one Church has been marked by a great *diversity *which comes from both the variety of God’s gifts and the diversity of those who receive them. Within the unity of the People of God, a multiplicity of peoples and cultures is gathered together. Among the Church’s members, there are different gifts, offices, conditions, and ways of life. "Holding a rightful place in the communion of the Church there are also particular Churches that retain their own traditions."263 The great richness of such diversity is not opposed to the Church’s unity. Yet sin and the burden of its consequences constantly threaten the gift of unity. And so the Apostle has to exhort Christians to "maintain the unity of the Spirit in the bond of peace."264
815 What are these bonds of unity? Above all, charity "binds everything together in perfect harmony."265 But the unity of the pilgrim Church is also assured by visible bonds of communion:
259 Unitatis redintegratio 2 § 5.814 From the beginning, this one Church has been marked by a great *diversity *which comes from both the variety of God’s gifts and the diversity of those who receive them. Within the unity of the People of God, a multiplicity of peoples and cultures is gathered together. Among the Church’s members, there are different gifts, offices, conditions, and ways of life. "Holding a rightful place in the communion of the Church there are also particular Churches that retain their own traditions."263 The great richness of such diversity is not opposed to the Church’s unity. Yet sin and the burden of its consequences constantly threaten the gift of unity. And so the Apostle has to exhort Christians to "maintain the unity of the Spirit in the bond of peace."264
815 What are these bonds of unity? Above all, charity "binds everything together in perfect harmony."265 But the unity of the pilgrim Church is also assured by visible bonds of communion:
- profession of one faith received from the Apostles;
- common celebration of divine worship, especially of the sacraments;
- apostolic succession through the sacrament of Holy Orders, maintaining the fraternal concord of God’s family.266
816 "The sole Church of Christ [is that] which our Savior, after his Resurrection, entrusted to Peter’s pastoral care, commissioning him and the other apostles to extend and rule it. . . . This Church, constituted and organized as a society in the present world, subsists in (subsistit in) the Catholic Church, which is governed by the successor of Peter and by the bishops in communion with him."267 The Second Vatican Council’s Decree on Ecumenism explains: "For it is through Christ’s Catholic Church alone, which is the universal help toward salvation, that the fullness of the means of salvation can be obtained. It was to the apostolic college alone, of which Peter is the head, that we believe that our Lord entrusted all the blessings of the New Covenant, in order to establish on earth the one Body of Christ into which all those should be fully incorporated who belong in any way to the People of God."268
260 Gaudium et spes 78 § 3.
261 Unitatis redintegratio 2 § 2.
262 St. Clement Of Alexandria, Pæd. 1,6,42
G 8,300.263 Lumen gentium 13 § 2.
264 Eph 4:3.
265 Col 3:14.
266 Cf. Unitatis redintegratio 2; Lumen gentium 14; CIC, can. 205.
267 Lumen gentium 8 § 2.
268 Unitatis redintegratio 3 § 5.
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wynd
Guest
Hi dzheremi,
What’s different about how you (or OOs) envision unity as opposed to the EOs?
C
Cavaradossi
Guest
Now that’s rather rude.
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Expatreprocedit
Guest
I guess I’m not in union with my fellow Orthodox, because I don’t dislike the Pope. Actually, I like him.
More seriously, most Orthodox I know like and have respect for the Pope.
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marywarfield
Guest
More denial. Whatever. I didn’t read past the Nestorians. LMAO.
Look I know Orthodox are fond of their geographic and
ethnic ties. Your attempt to smear the priest is just silly.
A Carmelite trained in educated in Rome who happens
to be of the Syro Malabar rite is not going to be affected
by your claims of Nestoreans LMAO!!!
Wow. If you have to reach that far I can only say
hey I’m sorry you are trying to constantly undermine
something Christ put into practice.
Reality Chrust wanted His Gospel preached around the
world to everyone and evangelizing outside their own
limited spheres is just not what the Orthodox are famous
for.
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