Convince me

[1Tim215Mommy]

1. Please do take the time to find and read Stanley L. Jaki’s “And on This Rock: The Witness of One Land and Two Covenants”, if you are able. He makes an excellent and short set of arguments in his small book. It convinced me not to go Orthodox when I was discerning my way out of atheism.

I’ll keep my eye out for that book. Thank you!

1. One simple reason: the failure of pan-orthodox councils and synods to create unity and authority. Since 1054, not one of them has led to greater unity. Whenever a new one has been proclaimed, there was bickering before it, superficial agreement during it, and disobedience after it. Each jurisdiction is basically its own papacy: whether Russian, Greek, or otherwise.

Orthodoxy has been 100% united in our Liturgy & Faith. Despite persecutions & oppression in many areas of the world - the Liturgy & Faith are identical in those persecuted areas like Jerusalem & Turkey as they are in Australia & other religiously-free countries.

Our Authority is the Bishop & above the Bishop, Jesus Christ. Where the Eucharist is & where the Bishop is, there is Jesus Christ.

The purpose of Ecumenical Councils, historically, have Not been to promote greater Unity, but have been to squash heresy by clarifying dogma - such as God as Holy Trinity as opposed to rogue bishop Arius teachings.

There is no equivalent to a Catholic Pope in Orthodoxy. The Catholic Pope has immediate jurisdiction in every Bishop’s jurisdiction and the ability to depose Bishops without council. This is unheard of within Orthodoxy.

In my opinion, Orthodoxy as it exists now is doomed to nationalism. The Catholic Church is not.

My observation has been that Orthodoxy is no more or less nationalistic than Eastern Catholicism is. On Catholic Radio, it was announced this morning that the Pope has just declared his support of the Ukrainian Catholic Church.

 

[1Tim215Mommy]

By Eastern I meant Byzantine. Yes, the ethnic divisions are the same in the eastern Catholic Churches. But I don’t consider your example of Assyrian an analogous one because, again, it’s a mix of Iraqis, Iranians, Syrians and Malabarese.

I drove by a Assyrian Catholic Church today, so that’s what made me think to include that ethnicity. Apparently, the mix of Iraqis, Iranians, Syrians & Malabarese all identify themselves of ethnic Assyrian regardless of what modern country boundaries they happen find themselves in now or immigrated from: Iraq, Iran or Syria; otherwise, they’d have named their version/church/rite of the Catholic Church by another name.

 

[1Tim215Mommy]

I don’t think you actually “pick” an "Eastern Catholic ethnicity when you convert from Orthodoxy. You are assigned to the sui iuris church closest in “ethnicity” to the one you are coming from in Orthodoxy. But…it doesn’t really matter one whit, because as a Catholic you are free to worship in, receive Sacraments in, and be a parish member of ANY church in communion with Rome. Ethnicity should really be the least of your worries!

Okay, so then who would assign us? How do they determine which nationalistic/ethnic Eastern Orthodox Church is closest to the Greek Orthodox Church? Or is it already pre-determined & if so, then which is the sui iuris church closest to Greek Orthodoxy?

Yes, I get that Catholics attend any parish they feel like attending regardless of the type/church/rite they are an actual member. The same is true for Orthodoxy - any Orthodox Christian can go & attend another Orthodox Church and receive the Sacraments - due to a dusty remodel of my Greek Orthodox parish, my youngest daughter was baptized in the Russian Church. I agree that this is cool - the ability to go & visit other parishes, but a Church-home is still needed.

Ethnicity really matters for several reasons including, but not limited to the difference of the types of* food* eaten during coffee hour & expected for us to prepare for fundraisers, language spoken among the people & during the liturgy and just the overall culture of the people.

I’m sure you’d understand that **we wouldn’t want to feel like aliens in our Church-home aka parish. **

 

[MorEphrem]

I drove by a Assyrian Catholic Church today, so that’s what made me think to include that ethnicity. Apparently, the mix of Iraqis, Iranians, Syrians & Malabarese all identify themselves of ethnic Assyrian regardless of what modern country boundaries they happen find themselves in now or immigrated from: Iraq, Iran or Syria; otherwise, they’d have named their version/church/rite of the Catholic Church by another name.

Malabar = part of India. And Syria and Iraq have overlap with the Syriac Catholic and Chaldean Catholic Churches. Again, the developments of the different Churches did not correspond to ethnicity but rather organic situation - one was the Syriac liturgy within the Roman Empire the other without. My point was Oriental divisions are not contingent on ethnicity but rather liturgical use and geographic proximity - that’s significantly different from nation-based division .

 

[1Tim215Mommy]

Not that I’m advocating abandoning Orthodoxy - far from it - but in that case, no, actually you wouldn’t pick. Since you’re Greek Orthodox, the transfers would automatically be to the minuscule Greek Catholic Church, which has no presence in the US (actually, it may not have a presence outside of Greece proper).

Okay, so our family’s initial conversion would be to the Greek Catholic Church which we can find in Greece, but no where else. In other words, we’d have to go to Greece (outside of our budget, but I LOVE the idea).

You could, of course, try to petition for a concurrent change of Church. Either way, you would be free to attend any parish in union with Rome, (the Melkites woulde be the most familiar to you), although without a change of Church, there would be some canonical matters in the case of eventual matrimony or Holy Orders.

Next we could petition for a change of Church to for your example the Melkite Greek Catholic Church. But I know that Melkites Catholics speak Arabic among themselves, eat Lebannesse foods and have a culture which is totally foreign to ours.

We’d be destined to become aliens in our new Church-home?

 

[MorEphrem]

We’d be destined to become aliens in our new Church-home?

To put it quite bluntly, there are black and Chinese people regularly in the Melkite churches in the US. They’re probably more pluralistic than the Roman Catholic parishes by me.

 

[UbiCaritas15]

I can’t agree with you on this because if our family were to leave the Greek Orthodox Church for an Eastern Catholic Church, we would have to pick an ethnicity - Ruthenian or Assyrian or Ukrainian or some other ethnicity - that is not part of our ethnic/culture heritage.

If we get over the hurdle of becoming convinced we must become Eastern Catholic rather than Eastern Orthodox, another question that would immediately follow is: Which Eastern Catholic ethnicity ought we select & on what criteria ought we base our ethnic decision on?

I think I might be missing sarcasm here, but you could probably pick anyone for any reason you felt was the most important. I for one, prefer the almost completely sung Divine Liturgy of the Ruthenian church to the RC that I was raised. Possibly some of that has to do with the fact that I’m a singer, but the reality is the inclusion of the entire body in gesture, the overwhelming atmosphere that seems to transcend time and space, the reverence for Christ as light/Word/Eucharist, the repetition of theology in song and the act of singing which is open and vulnerable all add up to: why I prefer the DL to the NO. No there are no TLMs (really) in my area. That having been said, I would also like to go to a Melkite church and the relatively new Syro-Malibar church in my area. Why? I memorized the Baltimore catechism when I was a kid and theosis is, for lack of a better way of speaking: an understanding of my heart; which I prefer to my head. I happy not understanding.

That has nothing to do with your original post though.

I looked into the Orthodox Church. My problem was that the marriage issues (it is forever but it really isn’t but we say it is) are directly related to the lack of agreement on Filioque and primacy of the Pope.

Please, do not ask me how I feel about the lack of seriousness in the “Roman” church in backing up its marriage dogma. I am aghast that there is even a discussion about the inclusion of communion to the OPENLY divorced and remarried. I think Paul had the right idea in merciful excommunication for the purposes of repentance…

 

[MichaelinMD]

Okay, so then who would assign us? How do they determine which nationalistic/ethnic Eastern Orthodox Church is closest to the Greek Orthodox Church? Or is it already pre-determined & if so, then which is the sui iuris church closest to Greek Orthodoxy?

Yes, I get that Catholics attend any parish they feel like attending regardless of the type/church/rite they are an actual member. The same is true for Orthodoxy - any Orthodox Christian can go & attend another Orthodox Church and receive the Sacraments - due to a dusty remodel of my Greek Orthodox parish, my youngest daughter was baptized in the Russian Church. I agree that this is cool - the ability to go & visit other parishes, but a Church-home is still needed.

Ethnicity really matters for several reasons including, but not limited to the difference of the types of* food* eaten during coffee hour & expected for us to prepare for fundraisers, language spoken among the people & during the liturgy and just the overall culture of the people.

I’m sure you’d understand that **we wouldn’t want to feel like aliens in our Church-home aka parish. **

---

Before I address the questions/concerns you raise in the post quoted above, let me ask you a question, well 2, really: 1) Are you seriously considering entering the Catholic Church; and 2) if so, why?***

Who assigns you and on what basis? I don’t know. I think it’s automatic and I’m sure either others here know better than I, or a Catholic priest or bishop who is overseeing your “conversion” would be able to easily find out.

Which sui iuris church is closest to Greek Orthodoxy? Well, either the Greek Catholic Church or possibly one of the Byzantine Greek Catholic churches–Ruthenian, Ukrainian…But…don’t take my word for it, as I’m just guessing. Sorry.

Your church home, as you put it, will be the parish in which you choose to be members of and worship in. That might be different than the sui iuris church you’re assigned to. You might have to get used to different food traditions at coffee hour. But then, coffee hour is about fellowship, not food. I hope!

Most Catholic churches in the U.S. celebrate Mass or Divine Liturgy in English, or a combination of English and, say Church Slavonic as in some Byzantine Ruthenian Catholic Churches.

Don’t sweat the small stuff!! If the Holy Spirit is leading you from the OC to the Catholic Church, the details will work themselves out one way or another. That’s why I asked you my 2 questions at the beginning of this post.

As for “being aliens in your church home”…remember…as Christians we are to be in the world but not of it. (At least that’s the goal, ain’t it?? )

In Christ,
MinM

 

[malphono]

Okay, so our family’s initial conversion would be to the Greek Catholic Church which we can find in Greece, but no where else. In other words, we’d have to go to Greece (outside of our budget, but I LOVE the idea).

Again I am NOT advocating that you or anyone else abandon Orthodoxy, but it wouldn’t be considered a “conversion” in proper terms. It would entail a “profession of faith” and is considered a “translation” according to law.

Next we could petition for a change of Church to for your example the Melkite Greek Catholic Church. But I know that Melkites Catholics speak Arabic among themselves, eat Lebannesse foods and have a culture which is totally foreign to ours.

We’d be destined to become aliens in our new Church-home?

The suggestion of the Melkite Church was purely liturgical, since the Melkite usage (along with the Italo-Greek Church which has one parish in the US in Las Vegas) is the closest to the Greek. Cultural considerations are, of course, something entirely different. Years ago, back when I was in High School, I recall a very ethnic Greek family which was absolutely 100% Roman Rite RC.

 

[dzheremi]

Khen efran Emefyot, nem Epshiri, nem Pnevnema Ethowab, ouNouti enoout. Amin.

Give thanks to the Lord, for He has given me the ability to walk and chew gum at the same time.

This is a silly, silly thread. I like you, 1Tim215Mommy, but this is pretty ridiculous.

Here’s a shocking idea: Nobody is truly an alien in a Church that is following the Gospel, regardless of what ethnic or national qualifier may be on the sign on the door. If you are afraid that you’d be an “alien” in a Catholic Church because you’re Greek, then honestly I think the problem is not really the Catholic Church’s fault, but rather that we as human beings want to have some kind of baseline comfort level with each other so we tend to want to be around people who are similar to us, but sometimes we don’t get our way, because no churches worth their salt will tailor themselves to our comfort. If you don’t recognize that the same problem would and does exist in the Orthodox Church for essentially the same reason (though I agree with MorEphrem that the problem seems to be more pronounced in the EO communion than the OO, I don’t agree that it is completely absent among OO; at the same time, if visitors don’t feel welcome, it’s usually not a matter of ethnicity but of people being rude; rudeness has no ethnicity, of course), I’d say that says more about you and where your prejudices lie than anything else. I’ve often said here that it is silly to join a not-composed-of-you church and expect it behave as you do (Copts are not Euro-Latino-American mutts, after all), and that applies just as much to Orthodox (EO or OO) as it does to anyone else. If you really believe you have found the truth rather than just running a thought experiment, you owe it to God to be willing to experience some discomfort in integrating yourself into the Church as it is in your particular location. After all, that’s where His people are, so that’s where you should be too. If St. Pishoy Coptic Orthodox Church were to disappear tomorrow and be replaced by…I don’t know…an Indian Orthodox Church, it would be a pretty major adjustment (…and they thought my Arabic was virtually non-existent! At least I can read that!), but I’d have to do it. I mean, really, what other choice would I have? It’s the Church as it exists where I live. This impulse to complain and worry that you’d be a foreigner shouldn’t be nurtured any more than the impulse to treat you like one were you to show up for worship. No matter what communion you’re in or what background you have, there’s going to be some give and take, and if that’s too much for you, then shouldn’t working on that be your first priority, rather than finding a parish where you won’t have to deal with that because everyone is like you?

 

[MichaelinMD]

Khen efran Emefyot, nem Epshiri, nem Pnevnema Ethowab, ouNouti enoout. Amin.

Give thanks to the Lord, for He has given me the ability to walk and chew gum at the same time.

This is a silly, silly thread. I like you, 1Tim215Mommy, but this is pretty ridiculous.

Here’s a shocking idea: Nobody is truly an alien in a Church that is following the Gospel, regardless of what ethnic or national qualifier may be on the sign on the door. If you are afraid that you’d be an “alien” in a Catholic Church because you’re Greek, then honestly I think the problem is not really the Catholic Church’s fault, but rather that we as human beings want to have some kind of baseline comfort level with each other so we tend to want to be around people who are similar to us, but sometimes we don’t get our way, because no churches worth their salt will tailor themselves to our comfort. If you don’t recognize that the same problem would and does exist in the Orthodox Church for essentially the same reason (though I agree with MorEphrem that the problem seems to be more pronounced in the EO communion than the OO, I don’t agree that it is completely absent among OO; at the same time, if visitors don’t feel welcome, it’s usually not a matter of ethnicity but of people being rude; rudeness has no ethnicity, of course), I’d say that says more about you and where your prejudices lie than anything else. I’ve often said here that it is silly to join a not-composed-of-you church and expect it behave as you do (Copts are not Euro-Latino-American mutts, after all), and that applies just as much to Orthodox (EO or OO) as it does to anyone else. If you really believe you have found the truth rather than just running a thought experiment, you owe it to God to be willing to experience some discomfort in integrating yourself into the Church as it is in your particular location. After all, that’s where His people are, so that’s where you should be too. If St. Pishoy Coptic Orthodox Church were to disappear tomorrow and be replaced by…I don’t know…an Indian Orthodox Church, it would be a pretty major adjustment (…and they thought my Arabic was virtually non-existent! At least I can read that!), but I’d have to do it. I mean, really, what other choice would I have? It’s the Church as it exists where I live. This impulse to complain and worry that you’d be a foreigner shouldn’t be nurtured any more than the impulse to treat you like one were you to show up for worship. No matter what communion you’re in or what background you have, there’s going to be some give and take, and if that’s too much for you, then shouldn’t working on that be your first priority, rather than finding a parish where you won’t have to deal with that because everyone is like you?

Well said dzheremi.

It goes back to my questions to her about her seriousness and why she is converting/translating, if indeed she is.

 

[dzheremi]

Where did she say that she was? I thought this was a thought experiment only. I have apparently missed something big, if that’s not the case.

Please, OP, if you’re considering conversion, get off the internet and talk to local Catholics and Orthodox in your area. Not much can be gained from querying strangers on an inherently-biased website, and only you are responsible for your soul.

 

[MichaelinMD]

Dearest 1Tim215Mommy,

I re-post this because I still think it’s relevant and hasn’t yet been addressed by you (yeah, okay, so I also like to see my own words on the screen–busted! ):

Do you want to be convinced??? Are you (and your family) open to the Holy Spirit moving you from Orthodoxy to the Catholic Church? If not, discussing this would just be an exercise in futility.

You might also want to read this article by Fr. Brian Harrison: catholic.com/magazine/articles/why-i-didn%E2%80%99t-convert-to-eastern-orthodoxy

In Christ,
MinM

 

[Celticnovice]

Find an Eastern Catholic Parish and " Come and See"

 

[Peter_J]

Tell me all the reasons why my family ought to leave the Greek Orthodox Church and become Eastern Catholic. Convince me.

Hi. I was busy all day and just now read this thread. Nevertheless, I don’t think anyone has posted this yet:
“Pastoral activity in the Catholic Church, Latin as well as Eastern, no longer aims at having the faithful of one Church pass over to the other”

• the Balamand Statement

That strikes me as the best response.

 

[Vico]

I can’t agree with you on this because if our family were to leave the Greek Orthodox Church for an Eastern Catholic Church, we would have to pick an ethnicity - Ruthenian or Assyrian or Ukrainian or some other ethnicity - that is not part of our ethnic/culture heritage.

If we get over the hurdle of becoming convinced we must become Eastern Catholic rather than Eastern Orthodox, another question that would immediately follow is: Which Eastern Catholic ethnicity ought we select & on what criteria ought we base our ethnic decision on?

If you did come into full communion with the Catholic Church you would be ascribed to the closet Catholic sui iurus church to the one of your father if baptized as an infant (if neither of your parents were Catholic), or the one you choose, if baptized as an adult, rather than to the one that receives you, and that would be automatic per the canon law. If you were not baptized in an Orthodox church then you would be ascribed to the Latin Catholic church, even if you were later received into the Orthodox. (The basis of the norm is that the infants are baptized into, and thus become members of, the father’s church.)

If you did become Catholic then the eastern Catholic canon laws apply for you.

cnewa.org/default.aspx?ID…de=HQ&pageno=1

 

[1Tim215Mommy]

Dearest 1Tim215Mommy,

I re-post this because I still think it’s relevant and hasn’t yet been addressed by you (yeah, okay, so I also like to see my own words on the screen–busted! ):

Open to being convinced. But I need to be really convinced.

 

[grandfather]

Open to being convinced. But I need to be really convinced.

What are the most fundamental doctrinal differences, the points of contention, keeping Eastern Orthodoxy and the Catholic Church separate? Maybe it is the authority of the pope, Marian dogmas, the Filioque, maybe one or two others.

Anyone trying to decide between which party in a schism is right should consider the core issues in dispute. Your approach, convince me you are right and I will convert does not seem like the best way to go about resolving the matter. It sounds like a dare, or an attempt to provoke argument.

Thinking about which rite you would belong to is getting the cart before the horse. It is not relevant to where you are now. It does not matter now.

Rather than demand someone convince you of something if they can, why not convince yourself? Examine the points of contention in the context of the history surrounding them and decide for yourself which party is correct. For example, is the bishop of Rome the head of the Church as willed by Christ? Does the Filioque express some truth about the Holy Trinity? What did the earliest eastern sees say about the authority of the pope prior to the schism? Has their position changed on the matter before and after? This is a matter of history not theology. Did the east look to Rome to resolve its disputes, in the case of the iconoclasts vs. iconodules, for example? If the east did appeal to the authority of Rome at one point, why should it deny that authority at a later date?

You can look into these things for yourself. Throwing down a gauntlet and demanding Catholics convince you of the rightness of Catholic doctrine might not be the best approach. It sounds like an invitation to continue to rehash unresolved arguments and rebloody one another’s noses.

We all know what the Os and Cs believe about the pope and authority. We all know about all the insults and name calling that has gone on. It is a disgrace. it dishonors God. Why go there again? Do we think one more go round will end differently? If you want to be Orthodox be Orthodox. If you want to be Catholic Catholics happily welcome you.

 

[GaryTaylor]

We all know what the Os and Cs believe about the pope and authority. We all know about all the insults and name calling that has gone on. It is a disgrace. it dishonors God. Why go there again? Do we think one more go round will end differently? If you want to be Orthodox be Orthodox. If you want to be Catholic Catholics happily welcome you.

Good post. paragraph above is debated at the highest levels of the Church, rather odd we should be so sure of ourselves when they themselves are not done discussing this and there is obviously no consensus in understanding. This requires a much more open minded approach for sure.

orthodoxchristianbooks.com/articles/509/towards-eighth-ecumenical-council/

 

[MichaelinMD]

Open to being convinced. But I need to be really convinced.

Grandfather’s post above was excellent!

I have another question for you, though…So, you’re “open to being convinced”…Why do we need to convince you?

I am more and more beginning to agree with dzheremi that this thread is nothing more than a provocative “thought experiment”. Perhaps you could “convince” us otherwise.