Convincing an agnostic...realistically

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How does one convince an agnostic that Catholicism is the truth? Do not start reciting scripture, because this is the type of person that requires clear evidence and support. He does not believe that The Bible was written under the guidance of the Holy Spirit and is therefore false. So I ask you: What are some ways that one can prove Catholicism in a “black and white” manner?
 
Read Aquinas and all the texts that he refers to. (Aristotle, Augustine, etc…)
 
You know, it’s not a Catholic work, and I dont’ know if there’s some stuff in it that might not be fully correct or not, but “The Case for Christ” is a pretty user friendly book, and interesting. Ask others around here first if there’s a problem I don’t know about though.
 
Simply ask them; Why do you believe what you believe?

You should be able to work off of that, and it must be remembered throughout the discussion that this is the eternal soul we are talking about, so this is very important to both people.

Also, you will want to be quite ready to defend Sacred Tradition and Scriptures, since you will have to cede that it is because of those that what you believe is true.
 
“Evidence that Demands a Verdict”, by Josh McDowell, helped convince me that Jesus is God. Then the Bible convinced me that Jesus established an infallible teaching authority, and the Early Church Fathers convinced me that that authority is vested in the Magesterium of the Catholic Church.

Ultimately you aren’t goping to convince him of anything. All you can do is your best to show him the evidence, and leave the results up to God.
 
I don’t know your agnostic friend, but sometimes the best way to preach is to not use words, as St. Francis was credited with saying. Exhibit Catholicism in your life…show humility, charity, wisdom. Live your faith. It is a superb testament to people who are not prone to being told the truth. Be a light, as Scripture says. 🙂
 
Only the Holy Spirit can “convince” your friend or anyone else.

OTOH, St. Peter reminds us to GENTLY and RESPECTFULLY be ready to give reason for the hope that is in us at any time.
 
I assume that your agnostic friend is actually living as if there were no God, even though agnosticism does not make that claim. It might be interesting to ask your friend, if he is really an agnostic, why he doesn’t live at least half the time as if God existed.

And take a look at www.peterkreeft.com for some good articles.
 
How does one convince an agnostic that Catholicism is the truth? Do not start reciting scripture, because this is the type of person that requires clear evidence and support. He does not believe that The Bible was written under the guidance of the Holy Spirit and is therefore false. So I ask you: What are some ways that one can prove Catholicism in a “black and white” manner?
I would turn him on to St. Thomas Aquinas’ natural theology (particularly the entire Book One of the Summa contra Gentiles and the “Treatise on God” in the Summa Theologica). It is straight-up philosophy which has brought a great many atheistic/agnostic intellectuals closer to the truth, that is, has provided them the knowledge on which the gift of faith has grown.
 
He does not believe that The Bible was written under the guidance of the Holy Spirit and is therefore false.
What books does he believe are true? Does he believe these books were written under the guidance of the Holy Spirit? For example, if he looks up the address for a business in a phone book, and then goes to that business and it’s where the phone book said it would be, does he therefore believe the phone book is divinely inspired? If not, he’s awfully inconsistent.

Christianity makes two remarkable claims:
  1. Jesus Christ is the only begotten Son of God.
  2. Jesus Christ died and was resurrected.
There is no rational explanation that demonstrates either of these claims cannot be true. There is a great deal of evidence that points to the truth of both claims. In fact, there is so much evidence that both can be accepted as true beyond a reasonable doubt.

Start with Blomberg’s The Historical Reliability of the Gospels and The Handbook of Christian Apologetics, co-authored by Peter Kreeft, focusing on those sections that deal with the divinity of Christ.

– Mark L. Chance.
 
You know, it’s not a Catholic work, and I dont’ know if there’s some stuff in it that might not be fully correct or not, but “The Case for Christ” is a pretty user friendly book, and interesting. Ask others around here first if there’s a problem I don’t know about though.
I’ve personally only read “The Case for a Creator” (also by Lee Strobel, author of “The Case for Christ” and "The Case for Faith). Assuming that the writing style is similar, I’d say this – the book is incredibly well written, with one exception – it should not be taken as a start-to-finish argument. Instead, it presents various evidences which should be analyzed more carefully, which when done will point you toward (in the case of the book I read) the existence of a personal intelligent creator of the universe. Again, I don’t know if “The Case for Christ” is written in the same way, but I would imagine so.
 
How does one convince an agnostic that Catholicism is the truth? Do not start reciting scripture, because this is the type of person that requires clear evidence and support. He does not believe that The Bible was written under the guidance of the Holy Spirit and is therefore false. So I ask you: What are some ways that one can prove Catholicism in a “black and white” manner?
The truth of Catholicism isn’t what the world needs, the world needs to hear the good news that Jesus died for our sins and that He is risen! If you want to proclaim your zeal for your religious authorities, that’s fine, but it is more likely to drive people away. What people need is love, forgiveness, and hope. That is what the gospel is all about.
 
I would say that determining the realness of your freind’s agnosticism would be the first thing to do.My experience has been that the vast majority of “agnostics” are “lazy”. They use their so-called agnosticism to divert attention from an immoral lifestyle or intelectual laziness.Our Lord warned about casting pearls before swine.If you are so inclined persue your freind’s true beliefs.If he is a true agnostic,much of the advice in these posts would be very convincing.
 
My experience has been that the vast majority of “agnostics” are “lazy”. They use their so-called agnosticism to divert attention from an immoral lifestyle or intelectual laziness.Our Lord warned about casting pearls before swine.
I couldn’t agree more. Here is what I think the OP has to remember to be successful:
  1. Remember, your friend is stupid and immoral, never forget that. You must maintain an attitude of utter contempt or all attempts at conversion will be lost. Remember, you aren’t here to win friends.
  2. What ever you do, don’t let it become personal. You don’t want to find yourself in a situation where you are discussing your own faith or relationship to God. You need to stick to the classics. After all, it wasn’t your personal journey that formed your beliefs, it was esoteric philosophers.
  3. Agnostics and atheists are the enemy. There can be absolutely no common ground between them and a believer. Their morals, beliefs, hopes, fears, loves and regrets are all falsehoods and lies. Trying to find similarities between your experience and theirs is only going to create understanding and empathy. You aren’t trying to empathize, you are out to win.
  4. Finally remember that you are right. Any time you show signs of understanding where they are coming from is only going to confuse them. Don’t budge an inch, even if you are on unfamiliar ground and flailing around with arguments you haven’t thought all the way through. You can’t show any weakness or uncertainty. If your faith doesn’t appear to be an impenetrable wall, then there is no way that they will let down their guard and admit they might not have all the answers.
Above all remember: contempt, contempt, contempt!
 
I’ve personally only read “The Case for a Creator” (also by Lee Strobel, author of “The Case for Christ” and "The Case for Faith). Assuming that the writing style is similar, I’d say this – the book is incredibly well written, with one exception – it should not be taken as a start-to-finish argument. Instead, it presents various evidences which should be analyzed more carefully, which when done will point you toward (in the case of the book I read) the existence of a personal intelligent creator of the universe. Again, I don’t know if “The Case for Christ” is written in the same way, but I would imagine so.
Sounds good to me. I think what helps about it is it covers the fact that the Bible is the most historically and academically correct manuscript of anything from that era. Which gives people reason to believe that what it says is true.
 
Pretty much, western epistemology tries positively to rationalize all concepts including love, but the contradiction is that it can’t. Human motivation or ‘free will’ cannot be described or rationalized in terms of what we sense within the world. Knowledge is not perception. You can find all of modern philosophy shot down by Plato’s Theaetetus. Pretty much, the agnostic position will ultimately yield to pure natural law. Love will never be found in psychology, or science. That’s what makes the Christian story so unique. God is God because he is love. If you believe in God you believe in love; thats it. If you don’t believe in a God that is love, you can’t explain why you love. It’s logically impossible to do so.
 
I couldn’t agree more. Here is what I think the OP has to remember to be successful:
  1. Remember, your friend is stupid and immoral, never forget that. You must maintain an attitude of utter contempt or all attempts at conversion will be lost. Remember, you aren’t here to win friends.
  2. What ever you do, don’t let it become personal. You don’t want to find yourself in a situation where you are discussing your own faith or relationship to God. You need to stick to the classics. After all, it wasn’t your personal journey that formed your beliefs, it was esoteric philosophers.
  3. Agnostics and atheists are the enemy. There can be absolutely no common ground between them and a believer. Their morals, beliefs, hopes, fears, loves and regrets are all falsehoods and lies. Trying to find similarities between your experience and theirs is only going to create understanding and empathy. You aren’t trying to empathize, you are out to win.
  4. Finally remember that you are right. Any time you show signs of understanding where they are coming from is only going to confuse them. Don’t budge an inch, even if you are on unfamiliar ground and flailing around with arguments you haven’t thought all the way through. You can’t show any weakness or uncertainty. If your faith doesn’t appear to be an impenetrable wall, then there is no way that they will let down their guard and admit they might not have all the answers.
Above all remember: contempt, contempt, contempt!
Hey sideline,no need to be snarky.I am not contemptousof “agonostics”.I was merely trying to warn the poster from my experience.If the poster enjoys pointless dialogue,endless speculation,fantastic hypothetical constructions,go ahead .there is always the possibility that someone is seeking the truth.
 
A good Catholic book to recommend is “What’s so Great about Christianity?” by Dinesh D’Souza, a devout Catholic and apologist.
 
Hey sideline,no need to be snarky.I am not contemptousof “agonostics”.I was merely trying to warn the poster from my experience.If the poster enjoys pointless dialogue,endless speculation,fantastic hypothetical constructions,go ahead .there is always the possibility that someone is seeking the truth.
Let’s see…

If I had said most “Catholics” are intellectually lazy, and they use their so-called “Catholicism” as a cover for their bigotry, what would your reaction have been?

Would you have given me the benefit of the doubt?

I think the majority of Catholics would have thought I was being contemptuous of Catholics, and very pejorative.
 
Lets see… so far the suggestions I’ve seen that I can relate to are Lee Strobel’s: A case for a Creator, Aquinas’s theology, Peter Kreeft, and Dinesh D’Souza.

Like some have said before, it matters how smart your agnostic friend is. If he says he’s agnostic because he knows he hasn’t really looked into any theological/anti-theological arguments, then any of these might be effective. I suggest you bombard him right away. But if he knows logic and has some backround in philosophy and science, I don’t see much chance in any of these persuading him, especially if he’s seen some of it before.

Some of my own experience:
Tim Staples gave me A Case for a Creator to read (as well as Darwin’s Black Box by Michael Behe, but you don’t want to go into that…). My reaction throughout the whole book while reading was that it was simply a creationist propeganda book. It makes VERY many erroneous claims about the weakness of evolutionary theory, and tries to pretend there is good evidence for intelligent design, while it puts none forward. If you give him this book to read and he knows something about biology and evolution, he’ll just laugh at you and never take you seriously.

Aquinas’s theology is probably the best suggestion, but again, if your friend knows his logic, it likely won’t persuade him. Of Aquinas’s 5 arguments for a first cause or God, 3 of them are basically arguments that there must be something which everything is derived from. 2 of them are for more specific attributes of God. The problem with the three first arguments is that it makes huge (although subtle) assumptions. If your friend is not a good reader or good at logic, he may not catch them. Besides the assumptions, another reason is that in his first three arguments, either the conclusion contradicts the starting premise, or the conclusion is assumed to be true in the beginning. The last two arguments have the same problems, but on a far more noticeable scale, as well as other problems. Part of it is that Aquinas’s arguments are outdated. He was a very smart man with good arguments for his time. The logic errors he makes in the beginning were always there, but some have become more magnified as our understanding of reality has increased since his time.

Peter Kreeft basically uses the same arguments as Aquinas, except they are poorly attempted to be made more modern, are long and unnecessarily complicated, and are more easily seen through, even though he tries to hide his arguments’ weaknesses in a long drabble of rubbish. I think he was actually the first person my godfather suggested to me after I renounced Catholicism and I was very unimpressed.

And Dinesh D’Souza. If your friend has already seen any debates D’Souza has been in or if he’s seen his interview on the Colbert Report, he’ll know that D’Souza is a prick. He’s a man who talks with confidense of very surprisingly bad arguments. He’s as arrogant as they come and your friend will likely be totally turned off by him.

To save you the trouble, here’s his appearance on The Colbert Report (He did all his debates before this appearance, while many of us non-believers had utmost contempt for him, but after this interview some of us actually felt sorry for him, and he’s practically disappeared since).
crooksandliars.com/2007/01/17/colbert-nails-dinesh-dsouza/

I can only help you with what not to give him, not really what to give him because nothing has really convinced me. And by the way I loved Sideline’s first post. Remember OP, if you’re going to talk with this guy seriously, don’t be a hypocrite and think you have the ultimate truth in Catholicism. You as well have to be open to changing your mind; it’s not a one-way-street.
 
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