Copernicus Persecuted?

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And you “really need” to comprehend that the Western world in the 16th and 17th century was just coming out of the middle ages and was not at the same place scientifically as we are 400 years later. What is commonplace today was not so in the 1600’s. Those “intermediate steps” that you speak of weren’t even taken yet.
Those intermediate steps can be traced back to the Greeks at a minimum.
I said that at the time, Copernicus was teaching things as FACT when they were not able to be substantially proven. There was no problem with teaching a heliocentric theory, as long as he maintained that it was just that, a THEORY
See your comment below about freedom of scientific thought, which the above comment seems to contradict. Which is it?
The point, my friend, is that the Church has always been portrayed as opposed to any scientific investigation because of a fear that it might undercut belief in religious dogma. If you do a little research you will see that most of the scientists of Galileo’s day were CHURCHMEN, with the Jesuits leading the way. The Church in Galileo’s day was the one supporting and pushing these men in their studies. Your above quote is the stuff that anit-Catholic rhetoric is made of.
No argument with your points about the Church, or at least some Bishops and orders, supporting science. But you did not refute my point, but talked around it, and then called it “anti-Catholic”. Please try again.
And you seem to be ignorant of the stream of conversation here. The Church deals with religious truth, not scientific. There is nothing that the Church has ever taught as dogma that has ever been incorrect. In matters of science, people are free to have their own opinions. When they cross over into the religious realm, then a conflict occurs.
In what way did the ideas of Copernicus and Galileo ever cross over into the religious realm (except for the position that the Church held at the time that was not supported by the SCIENTIFIC realm)? If the Church only deals with religious truth, why did it get involved at all?
For example, the Church has no problem with the current theory of evolution as long as it is held as a biological means of change in organisms. When one uses the same theory as a philosophical attempt to explain the origins of life apart from the creative action of God, then we see a conflict.
Did Copernicus or Galileo deny that God was the Creator? Don’t think so.
The Church did not have a problem with the heliocentric theory of the solar system; as rrp mentioned, Galileo’s problems arose from his betrayal of those who supported him, and that included the pope.
So now if we don’t like someone’s ideas, even if substantially correct, we attack their personality, how they live, what they have said about someone else, what incorrect ideas they had. Verbally “attacking” the Pope is a reason to condemn a valid theory? Not a very Christian way to behave.
 
WHO decides what and when something is fact rather than still “not proven”?

Certain aspects of Einstein’s theories were not “proven” for decades, but other scientists still used them in their investigations, experiments, and subsequent theories. By your reasoning, if we say that the entire Theory of Relativity was not “proven” until the 1980’s, then the atomic bomb could not have existed in 1945.
:rolleyes:

Oh brother. Please start posting about something you actually know about rather than these silly statements.

The two theories of relativity have nothing at all to do with the development of atomic and nuclear weapons. Special Relativity, the first one, concerns it self with object moving at high speeds in relationship with one another and the effect on the propagation of light and the temporal (tau) dilations and increase in mass that occur as an object approaches C (the speed of light). General Relativity expands on SR to demonstrate that high speeds can also simulate gravity and also create similar temporal dilation that high near luminal speeds can induce . There really is nothing in either theory that deals with atomic or sub-atomic particles. General Relativity and by extension Special relativity, got it’s first real proof in 1919 when a star, which should have just barely been occulted by the Sun, was actually visible during a solar eclipse.

Much of the theoretical work behind the development of the atomic bomb, and later nuclear and thermonuclear devices, was based not on Einstein’s work, but that of Leo Szilard and Werner Heisenberg and a few others. Einsteins principal controbution to the development of atomic weapons was that he, along with a few others, signed a letter to President Roosevelt asking to start reasearch into constructing such a weapon. And it was still very much a theory when that first device in Alamogordo was detonated in May 1945.

You also seem to have a lack of understanding about how scientific theories are proved. There is this thing called “experimental science”.

Remember, some of us here actually know science, some here actually know how an atomic bomb works, how to calculate the orbit of a satellite, sunrise and sunset, etc, where a planet will be in the sky at a particular time and date and so on. It is those people who are responding your your silly statements.
 
Those intermediate steps can be traced back to the Greeks at a minimum.

See your comment below about freedom of scientific thought, which the above comment seems to contradict. Which is it?

No argument with your points about the Church, or at least some Bishops and orders, supporting science. But you did not refute my point, but talked around it, and then called it “anti-Catholic”. Please try again.

In what way did the ideas of Copernicus and Galileo ever cross over into the religious realm (except for the position that the Church held at the time that was not supported by the SCIENTIFIC realm)? If the Church only deals with religious truth, why did it get involved at all?

Did Copernicus or Galileo deny that God was the Creator? Don’t think so.

So now if we don’t like someone’s ideas, even if substantially correct, we attack their personality, how they live, what they have said about someone else, what incorrect ideas they had. Verbally “attacking” the Pope is a reason to condemn a valid theory? Not a very Christian way to behave.
Your entire position is based on a hatred of the Catholic Church. You raise straw-man arguments, introduce utterly unrelated things and attempt to join them in mind-numbing ways and finally, absolutaly all of your assertions are contradicted by facts.

You are being willfully ignorant and refusing to actually try to learn the truth. To such a person, words are useless.

Are you trying to convince people you actually are the fictional character your member name is derived from?
 
Those intermediate steps can be traced back to the Greeks at a minimum.

See your comment below about freedom of scientific thought, which the above comment seems to contradict. Which is it?

No argument with your points about the Church, or at least some Bishops and orders, supporting science. But you did not refute my point, but talked around it, and then called it “anti-Catholic”. Please try again.

In what way did the ideas of Copernicus and Galileo ever cross over into the religious realm (except for the position that the Church held at the time that was not supported by the SCIENTIFIC realm)? If the Church only deals with religious truth, why did it get involved at all?

Did Copernicus or Galileo deny that God was the Creator? Don’t think so.

So now if we don’t like someone’s ideas, even if substantially correct, we attack their personality, how they live, what they have said about someone else, what incorrect ideas they had. Verbally “attacking” the Pope is a reason to condemn a valid theory? Not a very Christian way to behave.
I was trying to think of something clever to say to make you appear foolish, but you seem to have beat me to it. Have a nice day.
 
You are, in fact wrong. It has not been the “theory of gravity” for quite sometime. People today talk about the “law of gravity”. In addition, aspects of gravity have still not been worked out and these specific area, such as the existance of gravitons and the propagation speed of a gravitation field, have not been proven and thus are theories. Orbital mechanics, an application of gravity mathematics, is well understood and worked out.
There may be confusion between the “laws of gravity”, worked out by Newton, which explain the mechanics of gravity, and the “theory of gravity”, which refers to the study and explanations of what gravity is, and how it works. It encompasses Relativity and Quantum physics, etc. Perhaps we should call it theories, since it includes several related theories and is still “in process”. I will repeat my point that one can and should teach a theory even if it is not complete or “proven”.
The phrase “atomic theory” is a red herring and not a valid scientific term or idea. It comes rather from the non-scientific world. Please follow your own advice and learn about what you are posting before you post.
“Atomic theory” is a red herring and not a valid scientific term? Please don’t tell all the physicists who are working on it, okay? Atomic theory is the attempt to explain the physical nature of matter, particularly in regard to atomic and sub-atomic particles. Atomic theory goes back to the Greeks and is also still in process. It shares some parts with the “theory of gravity”, the “theory of relativity”, etc.
Please cite an instance, other than Galileo, when the Church denounced a scientific discovery. Also, please cite a scientific discovery that is at odds with Catholic teaching or the Catholic faith. If you are going to make such an assertion, please back up your statements.
I must admit I don’t have ready access to all that info at this moment, so give me some time on that. But I can think of one example: The Syllabus or Error. And another: The Bulls and encylicals about “Modernism”. While obviously directed primarily to faith issues, some of both were directed toward scientific thinking creeping into the Church. For example, in the case of textual criticism of the Bible. Please give me a little time to come up with some more specific examples; I don’t have all of that in my head.
Please cite where the Church taught something that has been contradicted by science. And when I say cite, you must cite a Church teaching, not some baseless assertion from a fellow anti-Cahtolic.
Since I don’t have the reference material at hand, as I stated above, I will for the moment give you this: The creation of the earth some seven or eight thousand years ago, and Adam as the first man. Both contradicted by science.
Pretty much your statements and your postion appears to be unsupportable as the Church never teaches about science, the Church teaches that faith and science are not op[posed but are, instead, complimentary, that the Church has never persecuted a scientist for that person’s discoveries. In short, nothing that assert ever actually occured. That includes the Church “admitting its error” in the case of Galileo. What Pope John Paul said was that Galileo was treated a bit badly and officials at the time were not clear enough to the public about what Galileo’s triel was about.
“A bit badly”?? “No persecutions”?? At least they didn’t burn Galileo at the stake, as they did others. You say the Church didn’t persecute but just treated some people “a bit badly.” But then you say “it never occurred”! Perhaps a little weaving and dodging going on here? And a big re-writing of church history.
Why don’t you actually take your own advice, see that your postition is baseless and admit your mistake. You seem very defensive about this.
Can’t quit just yet. I’m having way too much fun with this. Sorry I can’t admit to my “mistakes”. I was taught to tell the truth.

As to being “defensive”, I am not the one on the defensive here. Read your prior posts for that.
[/quote]
 
:rolleyes:

Oh brother. Please start posting about something you actually know about rather than these silly statements.

The two theories of relativity have nothing at all to do with the development of atomic and nuclear weapons. Special Relativity, the first one, concerns it self with object moving at high speeds in relationship with one another and the effect on the propagation of light and the temporal (tau) dilations and increase in mass that occur as an object approaches C (the speed of light). General Relativity expands on SR to demonstrate that high speeds can also simulate gravity and also create similar temporal dilation that high near luminal speeds can induce . There really is nothing in either theory that deals with atomic or sub-atomic particles. General Relativity and by extension Special relativity, got it’s first real proof in 1919 when a star, which should have just barely been occulted by the Sun, was actually visible during a solar eclipse.

Much of the theoretical work behind the development of the atomic bomb, and later nuclear and thermonuclear devices, was based not on Einstein’s work, but that of Leo Szilard and Werner Heisenberg and a few others. Einsteins principal controbution to the development of atomic weapons was that he, along with a few others, signed a letter to President Roosevelt asking to start reasearch into constructing such a weapon. And it was still very much a theory when that first device in Alamogordo was detonated in May 1945.

You also seem to have a lack of understanding about how scientific theories are proved. There is this thing called “experimental science”.

Remember, some of us here actually know science, some here actually know how an atomic bomb works, how to calculate the orbit of a satellite, sunrise and sunset, etc, where a planet will be in the sky at a particular time and date and so on. It is those people who are responding your your silly statements.
Conversion of Mass to Energy has nothing to do with Atomic Energy or Atomic Bombs? I guess I better throw out all my books on physics, Einstein, etc.

Thanks for the thumbnail tutorial on physics and relativity. I am aware of the work of those and other scientists. I don’t think I said Einstein invented the Atomic bomb, but it is known that the work that led up to it was based on the theories of Einstein (and others) and the work of Rutherford and others. Again, my point was about dismissing theory until it is considered “proven”. I am not claiming to be an expert at physics or astronomy (although I did chart the movement of the inner planets for a year when I was in grade school).

I guess I would appreciate addressing the question or post about the issue. Disparaging someone’s perceived lack of expertise about Quantum physics does not do anything to prove your point.

My entire position is not based on a “hatred for the Catholic church”. Not even close. It is based on a desire to understand and accept the truth.
 
Thanks for the responses, everyone. One thing I should mention though, is I’m familiar with the Galileo affair and I’m actually looking for more information regarding this claim about Copernicus.
 
Hey there,

I’ve been debating someone who claims Copernicus and Galileo were persecuted by the Church for their discoveries. Basically the claim is that Copernicus had to play a lot of politics, to be allowed to publish his book, including staying loyal to the Catholic church, after the establishment of the Protestant state, and make nice dedications, and donations.

How should this be answered?
It was a well known fact that the Bible reveals a geocentric universe with an orbiting sun relative to the earth. Copernicus was also aware of this so was reluctant to go public with his hermetic idea. If this is ‘persecution’ for your belief, then its true. But it is also know he feared the opinion of philosophers more for many reasons. Here is what happened:

Copernicus’s Heliocentricism and the Church.

In the wake of the H/G U-turn taken by Churchmen from 1741 onwards, there is a tendency by Catholic writers to portray De revolutionibus’s heliocentricism as having been acceptable in the eyes of the Church of the time. If this were not so, they infer, why didn’t the Church condemn heliocentricism as heresy in 1543 and not until 1616. Well there are good reasons for this. First, because Copernicus presented his reasoning prefaced by a question, thus it was framed as no more than a hypothesis. We can confirm this because Cardinal Belarmine himself, who was instrumental in getting heliocentricism condemned in 1616 said so in his Letter to Foscarini in 1615.
The second reason has a story to it. It seems Copernicus had always feared his thesis, some 30 years in the writing, would be met with derision among natural philosophers rather than with theologians, and this is why he curtailed its publication over the years. Finally, with old age coming upon him, he handed it over to a Protestant friend, a Lutheran theologian named Andrew Osiander (1498-1552) who was the one who had it printed. On the revolutions of heavenly spheres was published in 1543. An advance copy was dramatically rushed to Copernicus who was gravely ill in his home at Frauenburg, arriving on May 24th the day he died. The first edition however, had the following introduction entitled To the Reader Concerning the Hypothesis of this Work:

‘Since the newness of the hypothesis of this work –which sets the earth in motion and puts an immovable sun at the centre of the universe- has already received a great deal of publicity, I have no doubt that certain of the savants have taken grave offence and think it wrong to raise any disturbance among liberal disciplines which have had the right set-up for a long time now. If, however, they are willing to weigh the matter scrupulously, they will find that the author has done nothing that merits blame…
This artist is markedly outstanding in both these respects for it is not necessary that these hypotheses should be true, or even possible; but it is enough if they provide a calculus which fits the observations…And if it constructs and thinks up causes - and it has certainly thought up a good many - nevertheless it does not think them up in order to persuade anyone of their truth but only in order that they provide a correct basis for calculation…Maybe the philosopher demands probability instead; but neither of them will grasp anything certain or hand it on, unless it has been divinely revealed to him.’

In other words, the preface presented explicitly defined the type of ‘hypothesis’ Copernicus presented in De revolutionibus.

As a declared false one, one the Church would permit without interference, to facilitate the concept of phenomena, and for the convenience in making calculations.

It was this disclaimer then that avoided the possibility of an Inquisition enquiry.

Then there was the problem, how would the world of lay philosophers receive his work? Again Copernicus was not short of friends who knew what they were doing and decided on yet another strategy. They saw to it that the book was published in Nuremberg, and by dedicating it to Pope Paul III in Rome calculated this would allay the criticisms and censures of the Aristotelian philosophers. How well the Church’s enemies know their trade. This piece, designed as carefully as the wooden horse of Troy, would ensure the book’s safe passage through the corridors of Rome before it fanned out among the cities of Europe. But more than that, for in the Preface and Dedication to Pope Paul III there was added another little bit of psychology, hoping the Pope would protect the heliocentric hypothesis from the anger of the Aristotelian philosophers:

‘I can reckon easily enough, Holy Father, that as soon as certain people learn that in these books of mine, which I have written about the revolutions of the spheres of the world I attribute certain motions to the terrestrial globe, they will immediately shout to have me and my opinion hooted off the stage.’

Historians now agree that Osiander did write the first part of the preface of Copernicus’s book, a ‘hypothesis’ he knew the Church would permit in the interest of science. Kepler, in his Opera Omnia held Osiander entirely responsible. History however, was not kind to Osiander for his strategy. Andrew White for instance, in his book a History, poured ridicule on Osiander’s tactics:

‘He wrote a grovelling preface, endeavouring to excuse Copernicus for his novel ideas, and in this he inserted the apologetic lie that Copernicus had propounded the doctrine of the earth’s movement not as a fact but as a hypothesis…Thus was the greatest and most ennobling perhaps, of scientific truths – a truth no less ennobling to religion than to science - forced, in coming before the world, to sneak and crawl.’

Von Gebler called the foreword ‘an unprincipled introduction… Osiander’s sacrilegious act.’ But Osiander knew what he was doing. As far as he was concerned had he not written such a foreword the book may not have seen the light of day. Another consideration was that Protestants were even more vehement in their defence of Scripture. Luther, Melanchthon, and, according to White, Calvin, were to condemn Copernicanism. Luther, records White, went on to call Copernicus ‘an upstart astrologer, who strove to show that the earth revolves, not the heavens or the firmament, the sun and the moon.’ Melanchthon, in his treatise on the Elements of Physics, published six years later, said: ‘The eyes are witnesses that the heavens revolve in the space of twenty four hours. But certain men, either from the love of novelty, or to make a display of ingenuity, have concluded that the earth moves; and they maintain that neither the eight sphere nor the sun revolves…Now it is a want of honesty and decency to assert such notions publicly, and the example is pernicious….’
 
Thanks for the responses, everyone. One thing I should mention though, is I’m familiar with the Galileo affair and I’m actually looking for more information regarding this claim about Copernicus.
Since we cannot find any information about it, beyond what has been posted, I think you should ask your friend to provide some support for the assertion that Copernicus was persecuted in any way.

While it is true that he waited until his deathbed to publish his seminal work, one must be very careful about reading his motivations for doing this. One can make two mutually exclusive claims with equal certainty regarding his motives:
  1. He was afraid of Church persecution (though there is no historical precedent for it)
  • or -
  1. He was worried about the being publicly mocked, derided and humiliated by his peers. (I wonder if this has ever happened to a scientist?)
 
“A bit badly”?? “No persecutions”?? At least they didn’t burn Galileo at the stake, as they did others. You say the Church didn’t persecute but just treated some people “a bit badly.” But then you say “it never occurred”! Perhaps a little weaving and dodging going on here? And a big re-writing of church history.
More rubbish from someone who clearly doesn’t know what they are talking about.

What scientists exactly were “burned at the stake” for their discoveries?

Let’s see the list…
 
What few books reveal for some reason… is that Copernicus was a Catholic priest.

and his theories were well received at the Vatican
 
What few books reveal for some reason… is that Copernicus was a Catholic priest.

and his theories were well received at the Vatican
The reason behind this is that the historical record is unclear on this point. While there is evidence to suggest he was a priest (he was named as a candidate for an episcopal office), there is no definitive record of his ordination.
 
Since we cannot find any information about it, beyond what has been posted, I think you should ask your friend to provide some support for the assertion that Copernicus was persecuted in any way.
He says that the proof is in the long delay before publishing, his correspondence with the church, and the dedication, to solicit favor

Also, about Galileo, I’ve always read that he wasn’t charged with heresy because of heliocentrism but, for saying the Bible was in error, correct? The person I’m debating claims he was tried because of his theories and cites this quote from several cardinals from the time:

*"And whereas this Holy Tribunal wanted remedy the disorder and the harm which derived from it and which was growing to the detriment of the Holy Faith, by order of His Holiness and the Most Eminent and Most Reverend Lord Cardinals of this Supreme and Universal Inquisition, the Assessor Theologians assessed the two propositions of the sun’s stability and the earth’s motions as follows:

That the sun is the center of the world and motionless is a proposition which is philosophically absurd and false, and formally heretical, for being explicitly contrary to Holy Scripture;

That the earth is neither the center of the world nor motionless but moves even with diurnal motion is philosophically equally absurd and false, and theologically at least erroneous in the Faith."*
 
He says that the proof is in the long delay before publishing, his correspondence with the church, and the dedication, to solicit favor
Can he produce this “coorespondence”?

Can he refute argument #2 in post 31?
Also, about Galileo, I’ve always read that he wasn’t charged with heresy because of heliocentrism but, for saying the Bible was in error, correct? The person I’m debating claims he was tried because of his theories and cites this quote from several cardinals from the time:
*"And whereas this Holy Tribunal wanted remedy the disorder and the harm which derived from it and which was growing to the detriment of the Holy Faith, by order of His Holiness and the Most Eminent and Most Reverend Lord Cardinals of this Supreme and Universal Inquisition, the Assessor Theologians assessed the two propositions of the sun’s stability and the earth’s motions as follows:
That the sun is the center of the world and motionless is a proposition which is philosophically absurd and false, and formally heretical, for being explicitly contrary to Holy Scripture;
That the earth is neither the center of the world nor motionless but moves even with diurnal motion is philosophically equally absurd and false, and theologically at least erroneous in the Faith."*
Can your friend actually cite the source for this supposed quote?
 
It is, of course, important to note that Galileo was not prosecuted or “persecuted” for his ideas. Rahter for the profound disrespect he had shown the Church including attempting to interpret the Bible and use the Bible as a scientific text.
I may not understand you correctly, but I learned that Galileo was indeed prosecuted for his ideas, despite his bending over backwards to have all his writings presented in a way that would be acceptable to the Church (e.g. submitting his most controversial text to the proper authorities to receive their imprimatur, from Rome nonetheless). I don’t know of any way Galileo showed disrespect for the Church. He was a familiar longstanding acquaintance (in good relations) of Pope Urban who was the Pope during Galileo’s trial.

Did I misunderstand what you wrote? Thanks for any help.
Copernicus was not, to the best I can recall, ever persecuted. One must also not forget the Nicolai Copernicus may well have been a priest (the historical records are unclear, but his name did appear on a list of candidates for a bishopric).
He was a canon, an ecclesiastical office that did not require ordination.
I read this book more than a decade ago when I was an atheist. What the author turned up in his research on the Galileo affair, to which one chapter is dedicated, really opened my eyes. The Church was not the evil monolithic monster I had thought it was.
I agree, the Church was not an evil monolithic monster. However, the Church was wrong in this case as a whole (though many in the Church supported Galileo).
 
I may not understand you correctly, but I learned that Galileo was indeed prosecuted for his ideas, despite his bending over backwards to have all his writings presented in a way that would be acceptable to the Church (e.g. submitting his most controversial text to the proper authorities to receive their imprimatur, from Rome nonetheless). I don’t know of any way Galileo showed disrespect for the Church. He was a familiar longstanding acquaintance (in good relations) of Pope Urban who was the Pope during Galileo’s trial.

Did I misunderstand what you wrote? Thanks for any help.

He was a canon, an ecclesiastical office that did not require ordination.

I agree, the Church was not an evil monolithic monster. However, the Church was wrong in this case as a whole (though many in the Church supported Galileo).
To answer your original question, I would refer you to the well reserached book I mention by Timothy Ferris. As he is a non-Catholic scientific historian, his perspective is worth respect. Galileo was not prosecuted for his ideas. He was prosecuted principly because his writeing were offensive to the ecclesiastical hierarchy.
 
Can he produce this “coorespondence”?
I’ll ask.
Can he refute argument #2 in post 31?
He said that both are motivated by fear, and science and the church were a lot more closely related back then, not actually too dissimilar from each other.
Can your friend actually cite the source for this supposed quote?
The source is apparently the Papal Condemnation of Galileo from 22 June 1633: law.umkc.edu/faculty/projects/ftrials/galileo/condemnation.html

Also, is it true that Popes Paul V, Urban VIII and Alexander VII officially declared that heliocentrism is opposed to Sacred Scripture, and condemned the notion that heliocentrism was a truth to be believed with certainty? Because this is what ScriptureCatholic.com, which favors Geocentrism, says.
 
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