Coptic bishop blasts Anglican bishop over Islam

[discipleofJesus]

Pro, why don’t you just answer cestusdei?

Is Muhammad a false prophet or a true prophet? He could only be one or the other.

Is the Quran the word of God or not?

 

[Booklover]

pro_universal
So, I would like to know which authoritative work of the Church cestusdei is relying on as a Priest. It seems to me that the Vatican has made its policy clear: focus on common ground and try to understand and befriend muslims. The policy on nuclear attacks on civilians is even more blisteringly clear.

The question is “Do Muslims want to befriend us?” After all aren’t they taught not to befriend Jews and Christians?

 

[murtad]

pro_universal:

Here’s the issue: You are demanding that I do something which as far as I can tell, the teachings of the Vatican prohibit, namely, bashing Islam and focusing on differences instead of similarities.

The teaching of the Vatican do not prohibit “bashing” Islam, Islamism and Islamists but we cannot bash Muslims. In fact, our Lord Jesus in His Cathecism of Catholic Church (CCC) did say Muslims and Christians worship one merciful God.

A true Muslim is a person who confesses the Nicene Creed. By this confession he declares he is a Trinitarian Muslim, that is a Muslim who worships Trinity. This is not much different from Jews for Jesus who are Trinitarian Jews.

pro_universal:

If you want me to do otherwise, as a Priest, how come you refuse to provide support and explanation for your demand? You should be happy to explain your teachings based on the Authoritative works of the Church. If there is any such teaching that I should bash muslims, then I just might have to reconsider my stance, but as I see it now, you are a Priest who is denying the authority of the Vatican.

I have shown you many times that CCC 841 scborromeo.org/ccc/para/841.htm clearly condemns Arian Muslims but the plan of salvation is open to Trinitarian Muslims.

An Arian Muslim like an Arian Jew refuses to confess the Catholic Statement of Faith, the Nicene Creed. So he is called a Pharisee, the son of Hagar born into slavery to the Law. These people do not fear our Lord Jesus but the Law. That is why the U.S.-led anti-terrorism coalition had to pound Afganistan and Iraq with missiles and bombs to put fear into the heart, mind and soul of these Pharisees.

A Trinitarian Muslim like a Trinitarian Jew worships the one, merciful God, mankind’s judge on the last day. He is called Christian and is baptised into the Catholic Church.

Pro-Universal, your game is up. We all know you are a Islamist masqurading as a Christian Catholic.

 

[murtad]

cestusdei:

pro, and all I am asking you to do is state your faith based on the Catholic faith. We don’t believe in Muhammed or the quran btw. So why won’t you say it?

I will start.

I do not believe in the false prophet Muhammad.

I do not believe in the Quran, which is the Gospel of the Pharisees. As such, Quran is the work of the Pharisees, whose teachings were condemned by Lord Jesus as from devil.

Muhammad was a Rabbi trained in the laws of the Pharisees, particularly from School of Shammai, the now defunc conservative school from ancient Israel.

cestusdei:

1. You refuse to state your views on Muhammed or the quran and regard it as “bashing” to not believe in them.

Pro-Universal is an Islamist, who pretends to be Christian. He is trying to infiltrate the Church and deliberating twisting words of the CCC 841. In the Gospel of the Lord Jesus, those Pharisees also did the same trick to sabotage the early Church.

CCC 841 does say Christians and Muslims worship one, merciful God, meaning both worship Trinity. A true Muslim like a true Christian is a person who confesses Nicene Creed.

The Pope being a man of God is a true diplomat. Any diplomat definitely has love for his enemies. This is why he speaks in tongues (as Lord Jesus through his apostle Paul told us in the Bible). Such is called Ecumenical Evangelism.

 

[cestusdei]

The pope must be careful. Many Christians live under the muslims swords. He doesn’t want them hurt. Ah there we see fear at work again don’t we? But look at his other moves. Fitzgerald gone. More comments on reciprocity ie. Christians having the same freedoms there that muslims have here. You will hear more things like that.

I notice there are virtually no comments on the FACTS stated by the Coptic bishop ie. that there is persecution. I am reminded of my college days. They protested against the Shah. Khomeini took over and was worse. What did they do? Nothing, not a peep out of them. When I asked when they were going to protest they shrugged. They had already moved on to their next anti-American diatribe. They could care less about what was going on in Iran. That was a good lesson for me.

Those who give islamic terrorists a free pass and wax poetic about their losses shed no tears for Christians or Jews killed by muslims.

 

[pro_universal]

cestusdei again has time to write a diatribe against muslims, to claim that the Pope is concealing his true feelings about Islam, but he conspicuously does not provide any authoritative Church documents to support his repeated assaults on muslims and his support for the use of nuclear weapons.

I hope the rest of you will read this and wonder why, if it’s permitted by Church teaching, cestusdei can’t provide any authority to support his agenda.

 

[murtad]

pro_universal:

The Vatican has produced statement after statement that we are obliged to find common ground, to not attack, and to reject war against Muslims. How do you serve this purpose?

I can see you distort words of the Vatican by misunderstanding the bolded phrase we are obliged to find common ground. As His Holiness the Pope speaks is a diplomat not a man of war, he speaks in tongues out of love for his enemies and neighbours alike. We need to pray to God to give us the wisdom so we interpret this statement of his correctly.

This is my interpretation:

He means members of Catholic Church are made compulsory to ensure both Christians and Muslims alike worship the one God, Trinity. This can only be done via dialogue (evangelism).

We need to explain the histories of Orthodox Islam and Orthodox Christian pointing that the four rightly-guided Caliphs of Islam were violent war-mongering people who conquered the non-Arab majority Byzantine Empire through means of violence threatening lives of civilians. OTOH, the rightly-guided Caliphs of Christian faith conquered the Roman Empire in a non-violent democratic fashion in 400 years withstanding persecution from Jews and Gentiles alike.

Just my 2 cents. Everyone on this forum is encouraged to give me your reaction. Do you agree with my interpretation of the current Pope Benedict XVI and the former Pope John Paul II words of wisdom? If yes, I have won you over. If no, please tell me in detail why do you disagree.

 

[pro_universal]

He means members of Catholic Church are made compulsory to ensure both Christians and Muslims alike worship the one God, Trinity. This can only be done via dialogue (evangelism).

Your interpretation is wrong. There is no other way to say it. You are in error. Read Lumen Gentium, the document upon which CCC 841 is based. This will lay this claim of yours to rest.

OTOH, the rightly-guided Caliphs of Christian faith conquered the Roman Empire in a non-violent democratic fashion in 400 years withstanding persecution from Jews and Gentiles alike.

Was Constantine nonviolent? I do believe he converted to Christianity after it helped win a battle. Theodosius…no question there.

Do you agree with my interpretation of the current Pope Benedict XVI and the former Pope John Paul II words of wisdom? If yes, I have won you over. If no, please tell me in detail why do you disagree.

It is wrong because you are using an interpretation of the word muslim that is ridiculous.

 

[onesimplemind]

pro_universal:

It is wrong because you are using an interpretation of the word muslim that is ridiculous.

And what is the right interpretation of the word “muslim”?

 

[murtad]

pro_universal:

cestusdei again has time to write a diatribe against muslims, to claim that the Pope is concealing his true feelings about Islam,

Do you even know the meaning of the word “diplomat” ? We have various ambasadors to Malaysia, such as USA, Indonesia, Singapore and Thailand. A diplomat duty is to try to reduce tensions but at the same time speak the truth. Such people are normally men of few words. Also, consider this verse:

Do not forget, and do not turn away from the words of my mouth. Get wisdom; get insight. [Prov.4:5]

The words from the mouth of the Pope are like the words our Lord Jesus and His Apostle Paul. A Christian is supposed to get wisdom from these words, and from this wisdom, insight.

Pro-Universal is unable to get wisdom, so he is unable to get insight. This is strange since even a person who is nominally Christian would be able to understand the message the Pope is trying to say. So, I must conclude he is an Islamist apologist who participates on this forum masqurading as a Christian.

pro_universal:

but he conspicuously does not provide any authoritative Church documents to support his repeated assaults on muslims and his support for the use of nuclear weapons.

I have already provided you with authoritative Church documents, the CCC and the Bible both that clearly tell us a true Muslim is a person who confesses the Nicene Creed. Why don’t you, pro-Universal give us the contact information of your Bishop, so we can report you to your local Church hierarchy? I am sure your Bishop holds a true Muslim is one who confesses the Nicene Creed and evangelism of Muslims is a religious obligation as commanded by the CCC. I am willing to talk to him personally, if you care to give me your local diocese Bishop name, address and phone number.

The problem for you is you don’t have a Bishop because you are not under any diocese. You are an Islamist masqurading as a Christian.

Remember, in the past you called the critic of Islam “Ibn Warraq” used a fake name and went so far as to say he is discredited as he did not give his real name and contact information. The same applies to you - you are discredited.

pro_universal:

I hope the rest of you will read this and wonder why, if it’s permitted by Church teaching, cestusdei can’t provide any authority to support his agenda.

I am reading your comment above and wondered why pro-Universal is practising double standards. Why did you accuse the critic of Islam “Ibn Warraq” of using a fake name, yet you yourself use a fake name. So, when you say “Ibn Warraq” is discredited, you have an agenda and on this ground you are discredited.

Father Cestusdie has issued you a challenge but since you refused to accept the challenge, he has refused to have further discussion with you. I have provided you with ample evidence that evangelism of Muslims in permitted by Cathecism of Catholic Church, yet you reject the evidence. What more can I offer you?

 

[pro_universal]

onesimplemind:

And what is the right interpretation of the word “muslim”?

Easy: someone who follows the religion of Islam.

 

[pro_universal]

Father Cestusdie has issued you a challenge but since you refused to accept the challenge, he has refused to have further discussion with you. I have provided you with ample evidence that evangelism of Muslims in permitted by Cathecism of Catholic Church, yet you reject the evidence. What more can I offer you?

The only thing you offered is the ridiculous claim that “muslim” does not mean “muslim.”

Read Lumen Gentium. Your argument is outright wrong.

The “challenge” was no challenge at all. What Cestusdei asked me to do is insult Islam just like he spends 99 percent of his time on this forum insulting Islam. I refuse on the grounds that the Pope, in his “diplomatic” or whatever you want to call his words, has commanded that I seek common ground and brotherhood with Muslims, ie, those who think Muhammad is the last Prophet and who believe in the God of Abraham.

Your argument that real “muslims” are trinitarian is ludicrous, plain and simple, and you have absolutely nothing to support it.

 

[brotherhrolf]

http://www.blacksword.com/shop/images/PK-2053_lr.jpg

Yo, ho, ho, my friend Pro! I am speaking only for myself. I am tired of you posting that we Catholics insult Islam. Let’s talk about how Islam treats Christians and Jews, shall we? Insult Islam? Let Islam account for the Irish alone on this St. Patrick’s Day who were killed on 9/11. And do look at the words of Our Lord for Pharisee, Scibe, and Hypocrite while you are at it.

PS. Hey do you like the new logo? You might even be able to connect into the new movie coming out. Yo, ho, yo, ho, a pirates life for me!

 

[pro_universal]

I am tired of you posting that we Catholics insult Islam. Let’s talk about how Islam treats Christians and Jews, shall we? Insult Islam? Let Islam account for the Irish alone on this St. Patrick’s Day who were killed on 9/11.

Please show me where in the Bible you found “since they do it to me, I can do it to them and that’s alright!”?

Or “hey, it doesn’t matter what evil I do, as long as the guy I’m doing it is as evil as I am”?

 

[brotherhrolf]

Oh, Lord in Heaven, it is so simple “An eye for an eye and and a tooth for a tooth”. Please cease your deception. No one believes you are Catholic. Come clean. We will accept you as you are but this continuiing business of proclaiming yourself a Catholic is disengenious to say the least.

 

[pro_universal]

brotherhrolf:

Oh, Lord in Heaven, it is so simple “An eye for an eye and and a tooth for a tooth”. Please cease your deception. No one believes you are Catholic. Come clean. We will accept you as you are but this continuiing business of proclaiming yourself a Catholic is disengenious to say the least.

Last I checked, an eye for an eye didn’t mean: “If one terrorist attacks me, I can attack someone else with his same religious identity”. It would apply to individuals for individual crimes, if I’m reading it correctly.

And then there’s whole New Testament, that might have altered your understanding a bit.

But hey, why let Jesus get in the way of a little hate-the-muslims party? We didn’t let it stop us from hating Jews for 1900 years, so why should we let it bother hating muslims?

Please people. If anything, I should be the one accusing you all of not being Catholic, but of being ringers who try to water down or destroy the message of peace and love my Church preaches.

 

[brotherhrolf]

Good night Pro! Define yourself as Catholic all you want. Defend those who crashed planes filled with innocent people into buildings filled with innocent people. Defend those who attacked innocent Jewish atheletes, defend those who pushed wheel-chaired bound Jews off of ships…I don’t have to go on…It is not US doing these things to YOU, it is YOU doing this to us. And, nowhere in the New Testament can you say that Jesus said " Roll over, prepare yourself for death, and let them kill you.".

 

[onesimplemind]

pro_universal:

Easy: someone who follows the religion of Islam.

And what is the interpretation of the word “Islam”?

 

[pro_universal]

onesimplemind:

And what is the interpretation of the word “Islam”?

I believe by that the Popes meant the guys who pray towards Mecca and believe in the Koran.

If you read the statements, in fact that’s blaringly obvious. The interpretation murtad’s giving you comes from some paper I’ve never seen or heard of.

 

[onesimplemind]

pro_universal:

I believe by that the Popes meant the guys who pray towards Mecca and believe in the Koran.

If you read the statements, in fact that’s blaringly obvious. The interpretation murtad’s giving you comes from some paper I’ve never seen or heard of.

So what is it?