Copts

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Are there actually not two groups of Copts. The Copts from Egypt and the Copts from Ethiopia?

Are they two separate churches? Or are some of the Egyptians Eastern Catholics and the Ethiopians Oriental Orthodox?

Which country of Copts being reffered to?

This has me very confused, can someone please help me out here? :confused:
 
Brothers dzheremi or mardukm or Zakariya will, I’m sure, offer more etail, but I’ll take a brief preliminary stab.
Are there actually not two groups of Copts. The Copts from Egypt and the Copts from Ethiopia?
Not exactly. Both are part of the Alexandrene tradition, but they are very different from one another. Until 1959 the Ethiopian Orthodox Tawahedo Church was technically a dependency of the Coptic Orthodox Church, despite the fact that the observances of each Church differ markedly.
Are they two separate churches?
Yes.
Or are some of the Egyptians Eastern Catholics and the Ethiopians Oriental Orthodox?
In addition to the Coptic Orthodox Church, there is also a small Coptic Catholic Church in union with Rome. The same is true for the Ethiopian Church.
Which country of Copts being reffered to?
In general, Copts are associated with Egypt.
 
Malphono wrote pretty much everything I would’ve written if I were here when you posted that (I was in Las Cruces, celebrating the first ever Coptic liturgy in that city…woo! :D). There are also a smaller number of Copts (about 3 million) in Sudan, and an even smaller number in Libya (about 160,000). Outside of these areas most Coptic populations in Africa are the result of recent evangelism. Coptic or Ethiopian Catholics don’t really figure into any of this, since they’re very small churches and of very recent vintage compared to their Orthodox mother churches.


Pictured: Abouna Filotheos Farag of El-Shahidein Coptic Orthodox Church, Khartoum

Malphono is correct, by the way: Copts are primarily associated with Egypt. “Copt” literally means “Egyptian” (via Arabic Gibt/Qibt, from Greek Egyptos). In this ethnic sense, the Ethiopians were never Copts, but merely very closely related to that Church for historical and jurisdictional reasons.
 
There is also an Eritrean usage within the Ethiopian churches. ISTR it being autonomous in the Orthodox, but the Eritrean Catholics are part of the Ethiopian Catholic Church Sui Iuris.
 
Malphono wrote pretty much everything I would’ve written if I were here when you posted that (I was in Las Cruces, celebrating the first ever Coptic liturgy in that city…woo! :D). There are also a smaller number of Copts (about 3 million) in Sudan, and an even smaller number in Libya (about 160,000). Outside of these areas most Coptic populations in Africa are the result of recent evangelism. Coptic or Ethiopian Catholics don’t really figure into any of this, since they’re very small churches and of very recent vintage compared to their Orthodox mother churches.

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Pictured: Abouna Filotheos Farag of El-Shahidein Coptic Orthodox Church, Khartoum

Malphono is correct, by the way: Copts are primarily associated with Egypt. “Copt” literally means “Egyptian” (via Arabic Gibt/Qibt, from Greek Egyptos). In this ethnic sense, the Ethiopians were never Copts, but merely very closely related to that Church for historical and jurisdictional reasons.
There is a Coptic church in Las Cruces? I am very interested in that. I was born in Hobbs NM and now live across the state line in Andrews County TX. Too far for every Sunday but still relatively close! :)🙂
 
There is a Coptic church in Las Cruces? I am very interested in that. I was born in Hobbs NM and now live across the state line in Andrews County TX. Too far for every Sunday but still relatively close! :)🙂
Next time we have liturgy there, I’ll let you know. There is not a church there right now, but there are a few Coptic families, and the father of one of them had befriended some non-Coptic locals who were interested in the COC but not able to drive the 3 hours to ABQ to experience it. So Fr. Marcus came to them, and a few of us (maybe 5 or 6 out of a congregation of 40) came with him and we had a liturgy in the man’s home on Friday morning. It was a very nice experience and the curious locals really enjoyed it and said that they hoped we could come back and celebrate more liturgies in the future, so I’m sure we will from time to time.

I didn’t realize it was the first ever liturgy in Las Cruces until Fr. Marcus mentioned it before starting his sermon. He said “Now when they write the history of the Church in Las Cruces, you will all be mentioned on the very first page.” 🙂
 
I’ll merely add the etymological note, that “Copt” and “Egyptian” are in origin essentially just different forms of the same word, both derived from the Greek Agyptios. Ultimately the word is traced to an alternate Ancient Egyptian name for the city of Memphis.
 
Are there actually not two groups of Copts. The Copts from Egypt and the Copts from Ethiopia?

Are they two separate churches? Or are some of the Egyptians Eastern Catholics and the Ethiopians Oriental Orthodox?
Are there actually three, with the Eritrean Church being a separate church from the Ethopian church? Is it correct to surmise that this separation is one of politics rather than liturgy?

But on the Catholic side, the Eritrean and Ethiopian Rites remain a single Rite with a single hierarchy?
 
Are there actually three, with the Eritrean Church being a separate church from the Ethopian church? Is it correct to surmise that this separation is one of politics rather than liturgy?

But on the Catholic side, the Eritrean and Ethiopian Rites remain a single Rite with a single hierarchy?
The Eritrean Orthodox have been semi-autonomous diocese within the Ethiopian Church for some years, and relatively recently, were granted autocephaly in 1993. It shares the Ge’ez rite, with minor praxis differences,
 
The Eritrean Orthodox have been semi-autonomous diocese within the Ethiopian Church for some years, and relatively recently, were granted autocephaly in 1993. It shares the Ge’ez rite, with minor praxis differences,
Thanks, so it is a difference due to politics, but no such difference on the Catholic side.
 
Thanks, so it is a difference due to politics, but no such difference on the Catholic side.
Not what I said at all.

While there is a political aspect to the separation, and the autocephaly is mostly political, there are also praxis differences and cultural differences. While both are Ge’ez speaking populations, they are distinct ethnic groups, and have been for centuries. I’ve seen claims that the differences are few, not none, between them liturgically; I gather from what I’ve read that the differences are mostly in paraliturgical hymns and in musical and architechtural style.

Also note: The Eritreans seem to refer to the Eritrean Catholic Church as separate from the Ethiopian Catholic Church, while the Anuario lists them jointly with a slash, and notes that the archeparchial see is Ethiopian. I can’t find any formal separation… but then, that’s not unprecedented. (The Ruthenians in the US are a defined sui iuris metropolitan church, autonomous from and yet of the same ascription as the Eparchy of Mukachevo and the exarchate. Yet, they’re all listed together in the Anuario as a single church.)

cnewa.org/default.aspx?ID=125&pagetypeID=1&sitecode=US&pageno=1
catholicgheez.org/
 
Not what I said at all.

While there is a political aspect to the separation, and the autocephaly is mostly political, there are also praxis differences and cultural differences. While both are Ge’ez speaking populations, they are distinct ethnic groups, and have been for centuries. I’ve seen claims that the differences are few, not none, between them liturgically; I gather from what I’ve read that the differences are mostly in paraliturgical hymns and in musical and architechtural style.

Also note: The Eritreans seem to refer to the Eritrean Catholic Church as separate from the Ethiopian Catholic Church, while the Anuario lists them jointly with a slash, and notes that the archeparchial see is Ethiopian. I can’t find any formal separation… but then, that’s not unprecedented. (The Ruthenians in the US are a defined sui iuris metropolitan church, autonomous from and yet of the same ascription as the Eparchy of Mukachevo and the exarchate. Yet, they’re all listed together in the Anuario as a single church.)

cnewa.org/default.aspx?ID=125&pagetypeID=1&sitecode=US&pageno=1
catholicgheez.org/
Thanks Aramis for clarifying as well as the murky web of Eastern Churches relationships can be clarified. From the distance away that I stand, Ethiopian and Eritrean looks the same but we are talking of the identity of peoples here and they definitely see themselves as separate peoples after their political separation and subsequent war. Ruthenians to me has always had a separate identity with the territory changing hands more than once in the last century but the identity as a people remained.

I attended my first Egyptian Coptic Liturgy recently and was surprised that their Liturgy of St Basil (English translation, Eparchy of Sydney I think) has prayers for the Pope in Alexandria, the Patriarch of Antioch and the Abuna of the Eritrean Tewahdo Church but no prayers for the Armenian Catholicos or the Ethiopian Abuna. The priest told me he dropped some parts to simplify the liturgy for us non-Orthodox who were attending but it was in the printed liturgy books itself. I am mightily confused.
 
They’re not really separate ethnic groups, though. The majority of Eritrea’s Christians are Tigray-Tigrinya people, and there are actually several million more of that ethnolinguistic group in highland/northern Ethiopia’s Tigray region than in all of Eritrea proper. What the Eritrean church doesn’t have is Amhara, another highland Semitic people who make up the bulk of the Ethiopian Orthodox Tewahedo Church and are the traditional cultural elite of Ethiopia (hence when Eritrea was still part of Ethiopia, until 1993, there was at least some level of “Amharization” of the education and political systems in Eritrea province, though nothing as blatant as the Imperial days, when Amharic was enforced over all people; I read a statistic once that something like only 5% of all media in the days of the Selassie monarchy was in non-Amharic languages, despite the fact that the Amharas make up less than half of the population of the country). So the situation is a bit confusing at first in that Tigray-Tigrinya people can be Ethiopians (they’re about 6% of the country, and overwhelmingly Christian), but Amhara people aren’t found in Eritrea. But nevertheless “Eritrean” is not an ethnic group any more than “Ethiopian” is, so it’s a bit overly simplistic to say that they’re different ethnic groups when neither of them are ethnic groups, and there are a large number of the same ethnolinguistic group that dominates the Eritrean Orthodox Tewahedo Church in Ethiopia.

Now that I’ve bored everybody… 🙂 I’m so happy to hear that you made it to the Coptic liturgy, Jimkhong! I hope you found it to your liking. About the use of the diptych in the liturgy: It is the same here in the USA, too, so it doesn’t really have to do with the translation or the bishop that you’re under (we don’t really use the term “eparchy”; I don’t know why…maybe because it’s Byzantine? Here is a website of the diocese of Sydney and affiliated regions, where you can see all the other places in Asia that have Coptic churches: coptic.org.au/home/index.php). The thing is that there is no set list of Patriarchs that must be mentioned beyond those with whom we have agreements with the synods of the other churches to commemorate invariably in all liturgies, and those are Antioch and Eritrea only so far. But I have been to liturgies where the Patriarch of Ethiopia was commemorated (back when it was still HH Abune Paulos). When I asked abuna why he mentioned Ethiopia that time and not any other time, and he said it’s because we had Ethiopians visiting us. So I think the others are mentioned at the priest’s discretion depending on context. I’ve never heard the Catholicos of Armenia mentioned, but we don’t have any Armenians with us here in Albuquerque. We mention St. Gregory the Armenian in the longer commemoration of the saints (the part of the liturgy where the priest says “Verily, O Lord, as it is the command of Your only-begotten Son that we share in the commemoration of Your saints…”, followed by a big list of names…I dunno if you caught this in the liturgy you went to or not). 🙂

Coptic liturgy books can be very hard to follow, even for me after 2 years of attending this church. Because there is a lot more going on, for lack of a better way to put it, in terms of prayers and responses and all that in the average Coptic liturgy than there is in the Roman (i.e., the priest is often doing something while the deacons are doing something else, and the people something else), it can seem pretty chaotic if you’re new and don’t know your part as a layperson. The responses are very simple, but do take time to learn. Even we mess up sometimes here in Albuquerque, and we’ve been having liturgy for 18 years now! Usually it’s a deacon who uses the wrong language or the wrong melody for a response (because the melodies change according to the season, or even the date; ex. on the 29th of every Coptic month, which never corresponds to the 29th of any non-Coptic month :), the joyful or “efrahi” melody is used for all responses, but since it is not a specific feast, but rather a triple-celebration of the Annunciation, the birth of our Lord, and His resurrection, sometimes the deacons forget and use the regular melody).

Yes, it turns out that even non-Byzantine Orthodoxy can be quite byzantine. 😃 But you do get used to it after attending for a while. Just like in the Catholic Church, every particular church in the OO communion has its own way of doing things, and since the OO never went through a process of “Byzantinization” like the Eastern Chalcedonians did, we’ve kept the original ways of non-Hellenized Egypt, Syria, etc., which are baffling to some, but just as ancient and venerable as anything in the Roman or Byzantine churches (well, actually quite a bit older than anything “Byzantine”, if you take the founding of Byzantium in 330 AD as the start of the that tradition coalescing around a particular geographic area, as the Coptic and Syriac liturgies had earlier done in Egypt, Syria, Jerusalem, etc., but I digress…often).
 
Now that I’ve bored everybody… 🙂 I’m so happy to hear that you made it to the Coptic liturgy, Jimkhong! I hope you found it to your liking. .
Oh no, on contrary, anything that illuminates cannot be boring in my view.

It was a little difficult for me to follow as honestly, the congregation was miniscule. A Singaporean priest of Chinese ethnic origin, two deacons (one Chinese, one of Indian ethnic origin who still attends the Roman Catholic mass at his parish), and a congregation of two (me and a Polish Roman Catholic who brought his baby to be baptised because of some bureaucratic problems in his local parish). As a result, the priest simplified the liturgy by dropping a number of prayers, but fortunately I was still able to follow. In any case, the priest had to return to his base in Singapore after the mass. I was a little disappointed as I had attended an Ethiopian Catholic liturgy once - it was 2.5 hours long and they told me I got the short version. I guess Coptic prediliction for mix and match liturgies makes it harder to follow. But I did get to witness a Coptic baptism and the incensing as well.

It was also a little disappointing that the Egyptians who were here refused to join the Coptic liturgy as it was presided by a Chinese priest, so was not a ‘proper Coptic’. They prefer to conduct their own priest-less prayer sessions. The only other Orthodox in my country are, coincidentally, OO/OO-spliter: Syrian Orthodox (Keralan) and Mar Thomite. Both are also ethno-centric based and less welcoming of non-Keralans to their liturgies.

I note your point about Ethiopian-Eritrean differences. Both are nationalities and not ethnicities. It is a little like Malaysian and Singaporeans being nationalities and there are no such ethnic groups. Like Ethiopians and Eritreans, we have our rivalries as with any other closely-related peoples (India-Pakistan, China-Taiwan, N & S Korea) but fortunately we have never come anywhere close to war. Btw, I thought Tigrays are largely Muslims as are Eritreans as a country.

The omission of prayers for the Armenian Catholicos and the Ethiopian Abuna was in the liturgy book and not a discrection of the priest. Even more confusingly, there are Armenians in Singapore (the oldest functioning church in Singapore is the Armenian Church), where the priest is based and the Coptic Church uses the Armenian Church there for their liturgies as they don’t have their own church. Also, I was confused why the liturgy books included the Eritrean Abuna but not the Ethiopian Abuna.

Is there a certain distancing of Armenians in the OO Church? As I understood it (and I could well be wrong), the Armenian schism (from RC-EO) was one of default rather than a concious decision - they just happened not to have attended Chalcedon. Do they subscribe to Miaphytism as well? I believe they attended the 1969 council.

Anyway, to me it is all very interesting and fascinating. Overall I am impressed with how Orthodox of all shades maintain the faith through difficulties, and without a centralising magisterium as in the Roman Church. Any differences among Orthodox seems to be one of practice (which seems acceptable to everyone else) rather than theology (well not since the fifth century anyway) or sadly, politics. I look forward to the day when the chains of Romanism can be loosened so as to allow an Asian Rite or Rites to flourish while still agreeing on the same faith.
 
Oh no, on contrary, anything that illuminates cannot be boring in my view.
It was a little difficult for me to follow as honestly, the congregation was miniscule. A Singaporean priest of Chinese ethnic origin, two deacons (one Chinese, one of Indian ethnic origin who still attends the Roman Catholic mass at his parish)
 
The omission of prayers for the Armenian Catholicos and the Ethiopian Abuna was in the liturgy book and not a discrection of the priest.
Sorry for the confusion; I meant that the inclusion of these is optional at the discretion of the priest, in contrast to the inclusion of the Syriac and Eritrean patriarchs, which is not optional.
Even more confusingly, there are Armenians in Singapore (the oldest functioning church in Singapore is the Armenian Church), where the priest is based and the Coptic Church uses the Armenian Church there for their liturgies as they don’t have their own church. Also, I was confused why the liturgy books included the Eritrean Abuna but not the Ethiopian Abuna.
For the reason I mentioned earlier: The agreements are with the Syriac and Eritrean churches only. The others may be mentioned at the discretion of the priest, but only these two must be mentioned. I won’t pretend to understand why we don’t mention the others regularly (except maybe that we don’t want to be seen to be taking sides among the Indians by mentioning the Malankara Catholicos, as the Indians have competing factions who want to be independent vs. being an integral part of the SOC), but this is what my own priest said when I asked him that very same question. As I understand it, the Ethiopians and Armenians are not obliged to mention HH Pope Tawadros II, either (though I don’t know if they do or not).
Is there a certain distancing of Armenians in the OO Church?
Not at all. There is no distance between our churches, though there certainly may be unfamiliarity on the part of our people (sort of like how most Latin Catholics know very little about the non-Latin churches that they are in communion with). But we are each 100% in communion with one another, and there are even annual concelebrations held where all the bishops of the different OO churches in one region will come together and pray, and all the people from the churches will come together too to witness the different customs and get to know each other a little bit better, since otherwise we might be separated by language and custom (not by faith). I’ve never been to one of these, but I have seen videos of them, and it seems like certain parts of the liturgy are given over to one custom, and another to another custom, etc (say, the Copts might say the prayer of peace from the Basilian liturgy, followed by something from the Syriac Orthodox, and something else from the Ethiopians, etc.). It seems chaotic to me, but very interesting. Here are a few videos from one held in 2012:

The Holy Kiss/“The Kiss of Peace” – Here you can see the Armenian Bishop front and center (in the big golden mitre), exchanging the peace with his brother bishops from the Syriac (in the black head-covering with the crosses), Coptic (in the white turban with the white sheet covering the back), and Ethiopian (in the white turban without the sheet covering the back) brothers, all while Armenian deacons incense around the altar. I’m not sure who the Bishop in the purple mitre is…perhaps British Orthodox? They tend to hold a lot of pan-OO events.

The Absolution of the Priests by H.E. Archbishop Khajag Barsamian – Here H.E. reads absolves the servants using the Coptic text. You will notice that he reads the names of all the Patriarchs, since all churches and their people are present. 😉 Also notice how the other Patriarchs bow before him as he reads it – this is what the deacons and the people do during the absolution in the Coptic liturgy, so I’m assuming that this must’ve been held in an Armenian church for H.E. to be considered as the presiding priest (the same happens when HG Bishop Youssef visits us; Abouna Marcus “steps down”, so to speak, and he will bow before HG, receive absolution from him, etc.). So I think it is safe to say that when your brother bishops bow before you and take absolution from you, you are not separate from them at all. 🙂

The Tewahedo sing a song at the recession – just for fun! 🙂 And I’ve never heard any Tewahedo songs in English. It sounds quite nice, don’t you think? 🙂

(cont’d below)
 
As I understood it (and I could well be wrong), the Armenian schism (from RC-EO) was one of default rather than a concious decision - they just happened not to have attended Chalcedon.
Yes, I’m sorry my friend, but you are mistaken here. I’ve discussed this recently on this board, though I can’t recall the thread. The Armenians formally condemned Chalcedon (and Eutyches, and many other heretics) at their council in Dvin in 506 AD. It took a while for news of the council to reach them. When some Armenians in Persia were harassed for their Orthodox faith by their neighbors, the Assyrians (‘Nestorians’), the Armenian Catholicos of the time, Babgen (ruled 490-516), wrote a letter to the Orthodox to strengthen them. The Orthodox replied that the Assyrians said that there had been this council in Chalcedon and that the Council agreed with their (Nestorian) Christology, so now the Greeks and Romans were on their side, and the Armenians were heretics, and all this. It is because the Nestorians, whom the Armenians had condemned along with the rest of the Church at Ephesus, had said that Chalcedon confirmed them that Babgen saw fit to examine the matter in a synod at Dvin (there is even one point in the letter where H.E. says that the Armenians hold to the same faith as the Greeks; he obviously did not know what had been decided at Chalcedon by that point). At Dvin, they came to the conclusion that Chalcedon did not conform to the Orthodox faith, and they have been non-Chalcedonians ever since.
Do they subscribe to Miaphytism as well?
Yes, they do. All of our churches do.
I believe they attended the 1969 council.
It’s possible, though I don’t know anything about that. Armenian Christianity is very, very old. It has gone through several distinct periods of influence (first Syriac, then Byzantine, then Latin), each of which have left their stamp on its character. They are generally more ecumenically-minded than the other OO.
Any differences among Orthodox seems to be one of practice (which seems acceptable to everyone else) rather than theology (well not since the fifth century anyway) or sadly, politics.
Yes, I’d say that’s fair. We try not to let politics stand in our way, though. When the Eritrean government deposed the rightly-consecrated Abune Antonios and placed him under house arrest some years ago, we simply continued commemorating him as we had before, not the government puppet Abune Dioskoros (though the Eritreans in Eritrea have little choice in the matter, given the government’s repression).
I look forward to the day when the chains of Romanism can be loosened so as to allow an Asian Rite or Rites to flourish while still agreeing on the same faith.
I look forward to that for you too, my friend. The Catholic Malankaran Indians seem to do a good job for themselves so far (they’ve only been under Rome since 1930), and their liturgy is very close to that of their Syriac Indian Orthodox fathers, but also other people’s of Asia have their own cultures and should have their right to develop their own expression of Christianity within those cultures, too, in the same way that the Armenians, Copts, Indians, etc. (and of course the Byzantines, too, though they’re more outwardly uniform) already have. I know there is a Russian Orthodox Church in Mongolia, and Russian Orthodox, Latin and Byzantine Catholic, and Coptic Orthodox churches in China. With enough time passing and enough native converts, you will begin to see such things grow organically, just like they did for the Eastern Orthodox in Japan or the Oriental Orthodox in India.

The Beatitudes chanted in Sanskrit (!) by the Malankara Syriac Orthodox of India (they may be mostly Keralites, but they’re not narrow! :))
 
Thanks, dzheremi for taking the time out to explain all these. It makes the participation on this forum all very worthwhile. Thanks especially for the explaination on the prayers for the Abuna, etc, relationship with Armenians and the Tigre peoples.

The liturgy I attended was 1.5 hours, including the baptism, raising of incense and the Qurbana itself. I presume the parish priest of the Catholic did not know we is a deacon in the Coptic church as it is clearly not allowed according to Catholic canon law. I also found it strange that the priest asked me before hand whether I will be taking communion as he has to bless me before the liturgy starts. I declined even though he assured me Catholics are allowed communion in a Coptic church.

No, I am not offended by the actions of the Egyptians. This is what the priest said though I see no reason why it is not true. As an Asian, I am used to nationalistic and ethnic-centrism that underlie a people’s identity, not necessarily that I subscribe to it. Also as a Catholic, I am used to people who claim to be more Catholic than the Pope (especially this Pope), so why not Copts. Sad but a reality. I was told that the Bishop in Sydney (also not a ‘proper Coptic’) was kept out of his diocese by ‘proper Coptics’ for a few years.

In the same town where the Coptic church was (the historical town of Malacca) we have a Portuguese parish (leftover from the old Portugese conquest in 1511), which used to be under the diocese of Macau and got their priests from Portugal. We have similar bigotry there but, maybe, nowhere near so extreme.

I guess we can only pray that their Christian nature can over come their nationalistic/ethic natures.
 
The liturgy I attended was 1.5 hours, including the baptism, raising of incense and the Qurbana itself.
That is very unusual indeed. I wonder if the priest is actually saying the full prayers? In my experience, the raising of the incense alone takes 30-45 minutes, the liturgy another 3 hours. Baptisms are ideally to take place early in the morning, as there is to be a full liturgy afterwards which is slightly longer than usual due to the presentation of the newly baptized to the congregation for their blessing (“axios!” and all that). My baptism began at 6 am, as there were also two babies who were baptized that same day.
I presume the parish priest of the Catholic did not know we is a deacon in the Coptic church as it is clearly not allowed according to Catholic canon law. I also found it strange that the priest asked me before hand whether I will be taking communion as he has to bless me before the liturgy starts. I declined even though he assured me Catholics are allowed communion in a Coptic church.
No, no, no. This is all wrong. I’m sorry, but I would advise whoever has trained this priest that their job was really poorly done/left unfinished. For instance, regarding baptism: Unlike the Roman Catholic Church, the Oriental Orthodox Church communes all baptized infants. This is one reason why we make sure to baptize before the daily liturgy, as the newly-baptized are to take communion at that same liturgy (so baptizing an infant who will be raised Roman Catholic, i.e., outside of the church, makes no sense at all, even if it were “allowed”, which it isn’t). Under no foreseeable circumstances are non-Orthodox ever allowed communion. Our priests here in Albuquerque have said in no uncertain terms that they will not commune any Chalcedonian (EO or RC), and any among us who partake of the sacraments outside of the OO communion are automatically excommunicated. This is the standard, and I am very glad that you declined this priest’s offer (thank you for respecting us enough to know better), which he really had no right to make. That is scandalous and wrong of him, even if suggested with good intentions. Perhaps he is confused between the orban (the blessed bread that is not used for communion, which is given to all) and the eucharistic bread? They are from among the same loaves baked for the day (this is part of the liturgy, wherein the priest selects a spotless/unblemished loaf to be used for communion, but blessed the entire basket so that the others can be used for orban after the liturgy has ended). I’m trying to give him the benefit of the doubt, but really…this is bad. Very, very bad. I am beginning to see why the Copts may have refused to attend the liturgy with this particular priest, and I’m sorry but based on what you’ve told me it wouldn’t matter if he were Chinese, Coptic, or anything else…I would not attend either. Lord have mercy and send the people of Malaysia teachers to train good shepherds.
I was told that the Bishop in Sydney (also not a ‘proper Coptic’) was kept out of his diocese by ‘proper Coptics’ for a few years.
HG Bishop David? Seriously? Wow. He was born in Sudan and apparently speaks some Nubian, but he is obviously Coptic. Not every Sudanese Copt is ethnically Sudanese; many are Egyptians who migrated there as recently as a few hundred years ago or even later, and did not intermarry (though some did). This is not what a native (ethnic) Sudanese person looks like:

http://coptreal.com/Images/subjects/1_____.jpg

Earlier in the thread I posted a picture of a native Sudanese Coptic priest, Fr. Filotheos Farag. They’re very different. But it’'s true that some Egyptians have trouble with Nubian/Sudanese people, due to racism in Egyptian society. My Coptic friends tell me that when Sadat became president many people were not happy because he was too dark (his mother was Nubian, if I remember correctly). It’s sad. Racism is sad wherever it happens. It is against the teachings and life of Christ and the Church (no matter what particular church we are talking about). But, yes, it’s a human problem and Orthodox are not immune, even though it is terrible. 😦
I guess we can only pray that their Christian nature can over come their nationalistic/ethic natures.
Amen. The prayer of the fraction for the Apostles feast and fast recounts the day of Pentecost and the preaching of Christ to all people by the power of the Holy Spirit. It would seem that even as we pray it, we still have yet to take its message into our hearts in some ways. Lord have mercy on us all.
 
Under no foreseeable circumstances are non-Orthodox ever allowed communion. Our priests here in Albuquerque have said in no uncertain terms that they will not commune any Chalcedonian (EO or RC), and any among us who partake of the sacraments outside of the OO communion are automatically excommunicated. This is the standard, and I am very glad that you declined this priest’s offer (thank you for respecting us enough to know better), which he really had no right to make. That is scandalous and wrong of him, even if suggested with good intentions. Perhaps he is confused between the orban (the blessed bread that is not used for communion, which is given to all) and the eucharistic bread? They are from among the same loaves baked for the day (this is part of the liturgy, wherein the priest selects a spotless/unblemished loaf to be used for communion, but blessed the entire basket so that the others can be used for orban after the liturgy has ended).
I did think it was a little odd. The baby who got baptised had no godparent - isn’t this a requirement in the Coptic Church? He obviously will not be brought up a copt even though he will get a baptism certificate since the father is Catholic and the mother is non-Christian.

I am not sure why the two deacons joined the Coptic liturgy as one is aparently still a practising Catholic and the other told me he was there for the experience, though I accept both their Christianity is genuine.

The baby was comuned with bread but not wine. I always thought Orthodox do it the other way round for babies - wine mixed with water but no bread for new-borns.

The bread was inspected during the liturgy and they seem to have been consecrated together. I could be mistaken but the bread offered to us to take home was from the consecrated ones - again, I declined.

The raising of incense was over in 15 mins and much of the prayers were dropped. There was only a Gospel reading in the Liturgy and many of the prayers in the anaphora was dropped, including at least parts of the saints. I couldn’t remember most of it though, being so new to me. Still, it was an experience even if not the complete one.
 
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