Coronation of the Blessed Virgin Mary

[Ron_Obvious]

You are fundamentally misunderstanding the Book of Revelation. The book is a vision given to John. It is of Heaven, which is outside time. And the book contains many visions that apply to multiple periods of time. Just as many of the prophesies in the OT were fulfilled in those times, AND fulfilled by Christ when He came. That is why in the very first chapter John mentions that the events will take place soon.

The vision was given around the 60’s AD, when John was on Patmos. (Some scholars argue the book was written in the 90’s, but I think a dating in the 60’s is more plausible.) Many of the great tribulations were fulfilled when the Romans conquered and destroyed Jerusalem.

As to the “woman” in ch 12. There are four people/things this has been understood to be, Mary, Eve, Israel, and the Church. Each has a differing level of applicability, and none really fit perfectly. Mary fits the best of all. Mary gave birth to the Child who will rule, and she was pursued into Egypt. She is the Ark of the New Covenant in the last verse of ch 11 (remember, there were no chapter and verse until Catholic monks created them to aid in copying the Bible). As to the torrent of water, this could be understood as the Massacre of the Innocents by Herod. And all baptized Christians are offspring of Mary because we are made part of the family of God.

Israel can fit loosely, in that Jesus was fully Jewish, and is the decendent of David, and will sit on his throne. But the offspring of Israel are NOT those who bear witness to Jesus.

The Church fits because the Church was and will be persecuted and chased by the devil, but he will never conquer the Church. And we are the offspring of the Church. But the Church did not give birth to Jesus, Jesus built the Church.

Eve fits in a very loose sense because Jesus did come from her line as well, as we all did, and we are all her offspring.

So you can see that these visions are exactly that, visions. So there is multiple understandings of every single vision and sign.

Also, if you want to understand Revelation (especially parts you haven’t really considered thoroughly) you may want to read The Lamb’s Supper by Scott Hahn, where he shows that understanding the Mass is the key to understanding Revelation, as much of the imagery is in the Mass, and we can fully appreciate it when we understand the the Mass is the same worship we see in the Heavenly court in Revelation.

 

[Ron_Obvious]

Ron_Obvious;11687248:

Hello friend,

My futurist view comes from the author’s own words telling us it is something that will happen in the future. To me that is obvious.

Rev 12:1-6 is a sign in the second heaven, visible to the whole earth. Maybe something in a constellation or something like that, but a sign in heaven none the less. The reason I say second heaven is because “her child was caught up to God” which is in the third heaven. The woman in Rev 12:1-6 is the same woman in Rev 12:13-17. So how will the second part be fulfilled if it is Mary? In Gen 37:1-11 you will see how this is Israel.

Gen 3:15 would be Mary because women don’t have seed. The overshadowing of her by the Holy Spirit is the only way this could be accomplished.

I take it you are referring to 2 John 1:1? The elect lady is the church of Jesus Christ.

John 19:26 Jesus calls his mother “woman” at the cross. In verses Mat 15:28, Lk 13:12, John 4:21, John 8:10, John 20:13 and John 20:15 Jesus calls women other than His mother “woman”. What does that prove?

Israel in the OT is likened to a woman. Remember Hosea marrying Gomer the harlot? Unfortunately Israel’s feminine typology is usually associated to its infidelity to God. Female typology in scripture usually represents a system of beliefs. Ie the harlot of revelations, bride of Christ and Israel as a harlot.

Jericho, I don’t believe as you do, that there is only one meaning and that this book is only speaking of the future. You box yourself in with a futurist only, the woman cannot be Mary view. This book has multiple meanings and I don’t discount them the way you do. As zz stated, Mary is a better fit than Israel as far as the woman goes. I’m still interested in if you believe Jesus to be the child the woman gives birth to? Is Jesus the child in Rev 12:6?

 

[jericho777]

Apparently this is as far as we can take our conversation. I will leave you with this. Here is Gen 37:9-10. You will see all the elements of the woman in Rev 12:1 And he dreamed yet another dream, and told it his brethren, and said, Behold, I have dreamed a dream more; and, behold, the sun and the moon and the eleven stars made obeisance to me. 10And he told it to his father, and to his brethren: and his father rebuked him, and said unto him, What is this dream that thou hast dreamed? Shall I and thy mother and thy brethren indeed come to bow down ourselves to thee to the earth?

His father is the sun, his mother the moon and his brothers the stars. The reason there are 11 stars mentioned is because Joseph himself is the 12th star.

 

[Ron_Obvious]

Apparently this is as far as we can take our conversation. I will leave you with this. Here is Gen 37:9-10. You will see all the elements of the woman in Rev 12:1 And he dreamed yet another dream, and told it his brethren, and said, Behold, I have dreamed a dream more; and, behold, the sun and the moon and the eleven stars made obeisance to me. 10And he told it to his father, and to his brethren: and his father rebuked him, and said unto him, What is this dream that thou hast dreamed? Shall I and thy mother and thy brethren indeed come to bow down ourselves to thee to the earth?

His father is the sun, his mother the moon and his brothers the stars. The reason there are 11 stars mentioned is because Joseph himself is the 12th star.

Apparently so, my friend. Gen 37 certainly points to Israel. As Catholics, we do not box ourselves in the way you do. We realize, CORRECTLY, that this book is full of symbolic language.

Rev 12 shows the Woman giving birth to the male child who is to rule the nations with a rod iron. This points to Psalm 2:8-9. Jesus fulfills this prophecy. The male child being caught up to the throne of God refers to the Ascension. This shows the male child to be Jesus. The woman who gives birth to Jesus is Mary. Refusing to even acknowledge the possibility that the Woman is Mary reveals your bias.

The Woman points to Mary…and the Church…and Israel. It is not EITHER/OR, but BOTH/AND. Why do you confine yourself to only one understanding with no flexibility? If you are looking for the “accurate interpretation of scripture” as your earlier post indicates, you should be looking to the Catholic Church, the pillar and foundation of truth. Her understanding of this book is greater than yours, whether you accept it or not.

 

[po18guy]

Apparently this is as far as we can take our conversation. I will leave you with this. Here is Gen 37:9-10. You will see all the elements of the woman in Rev 12:1 And he dreamed yet another dream, and told it his brethren, and said, Behold, I have dreamed a dream more; and, behold, the sun and the moon and the eleven stars made obeisance to me. 10And he told it to his father, and to his brethren: and his father rebuked him, and said unto him, What is this dream that thou hast dreamed? Shall I and thy mother and thy brethren indeed come to bow down ourselves to thee to the earth?

His father is the sun, his mother the moon and his brothers the stars. The reason there are 11 stars mentioned is because Joseph himself is the 12th star.

Keep in mind that your private interpretation of scripture is your personal opinion, based on your own thoughts and biases, on your own authority, (or lack thereof). Catholics have the surety of the successor to Peter in collaboration with the entire college of cardinals, the deposit of faith as handed on by the Apostles and early Church fathers - all guided by the Holy Spirit, for our interpretation. We need not ever doubt.

Hint: If your interpretation leads you to divide from other Christians, it is NOT lead by the Holy Spirit. Impossible.

Ask yourself: Why must the Catholic Church automatically be wrong? Really…

 

[zz912]

Apparently this is as far as we can take our conversation. I will leave you with this. Here is Gen 37:9-10. You will see all the elements of the woman in Rev 12:1 And he dreamed yet another dream, and told it his brethren, and said, Behold, I have dreamed a dream more; and, behold, the sun and the moon and the eleven stars made obeisance to me. 10And he told it to his father, and to his brethren: and his father rebuked him, and said unto him, What is this dream that thou hast dreamed? Shall I and thy mother and thy brethren indeed come to bow down ourselves to thee to the earth?

His father is the sun, his mother the moon and his brothers the stars. The reason there are 11 stars mentioned is because Joseph himself is the 12th star.

This actually hurts your argument more than helps. So the woman, is clothed with ALL of Israel, so Israel CANNOT be the woman from your understanding.

Rev 12:1 A great sign appeared in the sky, a woman clothed with the sun, with the moon under her feet, and on her head a crown of twelve stars.

And you didn’t answer the earlier question from another. Is Jesus the child in Revelation 12? Is His birth a past event, or future?

 

[Ron_Obvious]

This actually hurts your argument more than helps. So the woman, is clothed with ALL of Israel, so Israel CANNOT be the woman from your understanding.

Rev 12:1 A great sign appeared in the sky, a woman clothed with the sun, with the moon under her feet, and on her head a crown of twelve stars.

And you didn’t answer the earlier question from another. Is Jesus the child in Revelation 12? Is His birth a past event, or future?

I think our friend Jericho bowed out of the discussion. I asked him twice if Jesus was the child in Rev 12. Its understandable that he didn’t want to answer, given his strict future only interpretation. An honest answer of “yes the child is Jesus” would punch a big hole in his argument.

 

[Good_Fella]

Sounds like someone has been watching Hal Lindsey.

Surely it isn’t the great planet Earth that’s late. :tanning:

 

[Good_Fella]

Ron_Obvious;1168724:

My futurist view comes from the author’s own words telling us it is something that will happen in the future.

The revelation of Jesus Christ, which God gave him to show his servants what must soon take place; he made it known by sending his angel to his servant John, 2 who testified to the word of God and to the testimony of Jesus Christ, even to all that he saw…Blessed is the one who reads aloud the words of the prophecy, and blessed are those who hear and who keep what is written in it; for the time is near.
Revelation 1, 1-2, 3

The author is telling us something about the future, about what must soon appear and at a time that is near. And what will happen, though not all that will, has already happened. To understand the Book of Revelation properly one must set it against the historical background that prompted its composition. It was written at a time of crisis for the Church to help the faithful confront it. What is foretold of the great Roman persecutions was at hand and has happened. This book, then, is an exhortation to the Christians who lived in the first century to remain steadfast in the faith and reject paganism; it is also an admonition to them not to fear persecution and martyrdom at the hands of the Romans, but to patiently endure their trials in the hope of the coming of the Lord who will ultimately vanquish his enemies. This piece of apocalyptic resistance literature also relates to all Christians and the life of the Church in the era of the New Dispensation. So the symbols or imagery, which are polyvalent, can each represent more than one thing or event: a theological truth or an objective historical reality. The fullness of God’s plan of salvation is cryptically and elaborately revealed in the Apocalypse, in which divine truths aren’t ordered by the constraint of time. They are presented as having unfolded and been realized in time from all eternity. From the eschatological point of view, John does envision what will happen at the end of time. But it’s a mistake to treat this book as showing a sequence of events that occur linearly in a one-dimensional course of time, or to apply only one meaning to each symbol or metaphor that corresponds with a particular historical or theological reality. The Book of Revelation is multi-dimensional in scope containing many parts and aspects of the divine plan of salvation which overlap and connect with each other to complete a picture that essentially involves a cosmic battle between light and darkness since the fall of Lucifer and the creation of ‘mankind’. The symbols, metaphors, and imagery contain a host of theological truths which are inter-connected. Hence, the woman in Revelation 12 can represent Israel, the Church, and Mary.

John 19:26 Jesus calls his mother “woman” at the cross. In verses Mat 15:28, Lk 13:12, John 4:21, John 8:10, John 20:13 and John 20:15 Jesus calls women other than His mother “woman”. What does that prove?

First of all, it proves that Jesus wasn’t dishonourably rebuking his mother at the wedding feast. The Greek word for woman is gune’. It takes the form gunai in the vocative case (the direct form of address). Jesus didn’t exclaim Oh, woman! but simply Woman, when he responded to his mother’s solicitation. The use of this word is a show of respect. In English it would be equivalent to calling a woman “Madam” or “Lady”. This form is used when Jesus addresses the Syro-Phonecian woman, the woman with the hemorrhage, the Samaritan woman, and Mary Magdalen, but in the proper less familiar way. Jesus didn’t address his own mother with Madam or Lady in mind at Cana or on Golgotha. Still he didn’t use the customary intimate term Em (Mother).To understand why he didn’t we have to consider the two significant occasions on which he called his mother Woman. These are pivotal occasions in the history of salvation following the Incarnation: the moment when Jesus began his ministry on earth and the time when he accomplished his divine mission to destroy the power Satan had over the world. Jesus had the Protoevangelium in mind when he called his mother “Woman”. “I will put enmity between you and the woman, and between your offspring and her offspring” (Gen 3:15). He looked at her as the new Eve: the spiritual mother of all the living. In our Lord’s eyes, Mary was much more than his own biological mother; she was the mother of all his disciples by virtue of her association with him in the redemption, ever since the moment she had pronounced her Fiat at the annunciation which through her free act of faith working through love brought the Saviour into the world. And so Jesus said to John, who stood at the foot of the cross together with Mary shortly before he gave up his spirit: “Son, behold your mother.”

• **“Now have come the salvation and the power
  and the kingdom of our God
  and the authority of his Messiah,
  for the accuser of our comrades has been thrown down,
  who accuses them day and night before our God."
  Revelation 12, 10

Then the dragon was angry with the woman, and went off to make war on the rest of her children, those who keep the commandments of God and hold the testimony of Jesus.
Revelation 12, 17

And the angel said to me, “Write this: Blessed are those who are invited to the marriage supper of the Lamb.”
Revelation 19,9***

PAX
:heaven: