T
TrueLight
Guest
Oh wow.
Thanks for the info.
Is that what the commentaries are like in that Bible? The language seems a little too poetic for an annotation.
There is actual commentary about “the protestants?”
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Thanks for the info.
Is that what the commentaries are like in that Bible? The language seems a little too poetic for an annotation.
There is actual commentary about “the protestants?”
S
Stylites
Guest
Mentioning an anti-Catholic work of fiction such as the DaVinci Code, and trying to claim that ascetical practices cause scandal are both unfortunate.
Please don’t discover how the Desert Fathers lived, among the angels and demons, how Christian hermits would stand with arms outstretched to greet the sunrise, and they would recite the Psalms all day long, and only lower their arms at sunset. Or the incredible sacrifices and terrible penances they would assign themselves out of love for Christ. Wouldn’t want anyone to think they were perverts or anything!
T
TrueLight
Guest
Well actually someone brought up in another thread the DaVinci code as to how an Opus Dei priest was wrongly portrayed.
And I am not talking about ALL ascetical practices. I am specifically speaking of beating yourself.
I am trying to get a sense of how much of this is common practice today. Can you help?Please don’t discover how the Desert Fathers lived, among the angels and demons, how Christian hermits would stand with arms outstretched to greet the sunrise, and they would recite the Psalms all day long, and only lower their arms at sunset. Or the incredible sacrifices and terrible penances they would assign themselves out of love for Christ. Wouldn’t want anyone to think they were perverts or anything!
W
Will_S
Guest
It is from the Rheims New Testament of 1582, not the commonly available “Douay Rheims” Bible, which is an extensive revision of the original.
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TrueLight
Guest
Oh okay. That’s why the language is so flowery!
M
MarkThompson
Guest
The Greek word is ὑπωπιάζω, which means:
A. strike one under the eye, give him a black eye:—Pass., have a black eye, “ὑπωπιασμέναι” Ar.Pax541, cf. Arist.Rh.1413a20, D.L.6.89.
II. metaph., bruise, mortify, 1 Ep.Cor.9.27; also, annoy greatly, wear out, τινα Ev.Luc.18.5, cf. Plu.2.921f (corr. Turnebus for ὑποπιέζω).
T
TrueLight
Guest
Wow. Thanks Mark.
S
Shin
Guest
Food for thought:
‘Evil is cleansed away by bloody lashes, and a scourging to the inmost being.’
Proverbs 20:30
'In all things we suffer tribulation, but are not distressed; we are straitened, but are not destitute; We suffer persecution, but are not forsaken; we are cast down, but we perish not:
Always bearing about in our body the mortification of Jesus, that the life also of Jesus may be made manifest in our bodies.
For we who live are always delivered unto death for Jesus’ sake; that the life also of Jesus may be made manifest in our mortal flesh.’
2 Corinthians 4:8-11
'Therefore, brethren, we are debtors, not to the flesh, to live according to the flesh.
For if you live according to the flesh, you shall die: but if by the Spirit you mortify the deeds of the flesh, you shall live.’
Romans 8:12-13
'Disciplines or flagellations are a species of mortification strongly recommended by St. Francis de Sales [Doctor of the Church], and universally adopted in religious Communities of both sexes. All the modern saints, without a single exception, have continually practised this sort of penance. It is related of St. Aloysius that he often scourged himself unto blood three times in the day. And at the point of death, not having sufficient strength to use the lash, he besought the Provincial to have him disciplined from head to foot.
Surely, then, it would not be too much for you to take the discipline once in the day, or at least three or four times in the week. However, the practice of this penance should be regulated by the confessor.’
St. Alphonsus Maria de Liguori, Doctor of the Church
‘Tell me, you who in your arrogance mock at Christ’s passion, you who, in refusing to be stripped and scourged with Him, deride His nakedness and all His torments as foolish and vain things like the illusions which come to us in sleep, what will you do when you see Him who was stripped in public and hung on the Cross shining in the glory of His majesty, surrounded by the angelic host, with His immeasurable and incomparable splendour round about Him, more glorious than all things, visible or invisible? What, I say, will you do, when you behold Him for whose shame you now have nothing but scorn, seated on the fiery throne of the tribunal of Heaven, and judging the whole human race in the dreadful judgment of His justice? By what rash boldness of presumption do you hope to share in His glory, whose shame and injuries you scorned to bear?’
‘I scourge both flesh and spirit because I know that I have offended in both flesh and spirit.’
St. Peter Damien
The discipline is not only a matter of mortification, it is also a matter of penance, which is due to justice. Sins require penance, that is, the penalty due justice. This taking on of penance is following the Way of the Cross, which is Christ’s own path for us.
‘No, I say to you: but unless you shall do penance, you shall all likewise perish.’
Luke 13:3
‘Evil is cleansed away by bloody lashes, and a scourging to the inmost being.’
Proverbs 20:30
'In all things we suffer tribulation, but are not distressed; we are straitened, but are not destitute; We suffer persecution, but are not forsaken; we are cast down, but we perish not:
Always bearing about in our body the mortification of Jesus, that the life also of Jesus may be made manifest in our bodies.
For we who live are always delivered unto death for Jesus’ sake; that the life also of Jesus may be made manifest in our mortal flesh.’
2 Corinthians 4:8-11
'Therefore, brethren, we are debtors, not to the flesh, to live according to the flesh.
For if you live according to the flesh, you shall die: but if by the Spirit you mortify the deeds of the flesh, you shall live.’
Romans 8:12-13
'Disciplines or flagellations are a species of mortification strongly recommended by St. Francis de Sales [Doctor of the Church], and universally adopted in religious Communities of both sexes. All the modern saints, without a single exception, have continually practised this sort of penance. It is related of St. Aloysius that he often scourged himself unto blood three times in the day. And at the point of death, not having sufficient strength to use the lash, he besought the Provincial to have him disciplined from head to foot.
Surely, then, it would not be too much for you to take the discipline once in the day, or at least three or four times in the week. However, the practice of this penance should be regulated by the confessor.’
St. Alphonsus Maria de Liguori, Doctor of the Church
‘Tell me, you who in your arrogance mock at Christ’s passion, you who, in refusing to be stripped and scourged with Him, deride His nakedness and all His torments as foolish and vain things like the illusions which come to us in sleep, what will you do when you see Him who was stripped in public and hung on the Cross shining in the glory of His majesty, surrounded by the angelic host, with His immeasurable and incomparable splendour round about Him, more glorious than all things, visible or invisible? What, I say, will you do, when you behold Him for whose shame you now have nothing but scorn, seated on the fiery throne of the tribunal of Heaven, and judging the whole human race in the dreadful judgment of His justice? By what rash boldness of presumption do you hope to share in His glory, whose shame and injuries you scorned to bear?’
‘I scourge both flesh and spirit because I know that I have offended in both flesh and spirit.’
St. Peter Damien
The discipline is not only a matter of mortification, it is also a matter of penance, which is due to justice. Sins require penance, that is, the penalty due justice. This taking on of penance is following the Way of the Cross, which is Christ’s own path for us.
‘No, I say to you: but unless you shall do penance, you shall all likewise perish.’
Luke 13:3
J
JReducation
Guest
To answer the question in the thread title, the Church does not promote abusing the body. The use of the discipline is not part of the life of penance of most religious communities today. The few religious communities that use it do so with very specific instructions that it must never cause undue hardship to the body. In plain English, it’s a symbolic gesture. It should not draw blood, leave welts, or damage the skin in any way.
Mother Teresa once said that she did not demand this or any other form of corporal penance, such as fasting, from her sisters, because their life and work was hard enough. Their greatest act of penance was to accept their life and work with the love of Christ. This is very healthy spirituality.
It is true that some of our saints, even the doctors, practiced such harsh discipline on themselves that they drew blood. This does not mean that it should be imitated. They were wrong to hurt themselves in such a way. They did not know or realize that they were wrong. In their mind, they were deserving of suffering, because of their sins.
We all deserve to suffer for our sins and we should do some kind of penance for our sins. It’s called atonement. That does not mean that we do damage to the body. Even the great St. Francis of Assisi, who is commonly accepted as the most penitent and the most Catholic man in Christian history, begged forgiveness of Brother Body before he died. He realized that he had been wrong to abuse his body. By the time that he reached his 39th birthday he was blind, had severe stomach problem, probably some kind of cancer. He had tuberculosis of the bone. Natural circumstances had given him enough corporal penances to offer the Lord.
The great, Bl. John Paul also set a good example for us. He accepted suffering with grace and gratitude. However, he did not refuse to take care of his health or his body.
You see . . . suffering has a value of its own. If we deny the redemptive value of suffering, then we must deny the cross. However, there is a difference between suffering for the sake of love and hating one’s body. The latter is not what the Church asks of us. When the great spiritual masters wrote of hatred of the body, they were trying to address hatred of sin.
We must avoid the danger of scrupulosity. Scrupulosity can do a lot of damage.
Fraternally,
Br. JR, OSF
Mother Teresa once said that she did not demand this or any other form of corporal penance, such as fasting, from her sisters, because their life and work was hard enough. Their greatest act of penance was to accept their life and work with the love of Christ. This is very healthy spirituality.
It is true that some of our saints, even the doctors, practiced such harsh discipline on themselves that they drew blood. This does not mean that it should be imitated. They were wrong to hurt themselves in such a way. They did not know or realize that they were wrong. In their mind, they were deserving of suffering, because of their sins.
We all deserve to suffer for our sins and we should do some kind of penance for our sins. It’s called atonement. That does not mean that we do damage to the body. Even the great St. Francis of Assisi, who is commonly accepted as the most penitent and the most Catholic man in Christian history, begged forgiveness of Brother Body before he died. He realized that he had been wrong to abuse his body. By the time that he reached his 39th birthday he was blind, had severe stomach problem, probably some kind of cancer. He had tuberculosis of the bone. Natural circumstances had given him enough corporal penances to offer the Lord.
The great, Bl. John Paul also set a good example for us. He accepted suffering with grace and gratitude. However, he did not refuse to take care of his health or his body.
You see . . . suffering has a value of its own. If we deny the redemptive value of suffering, then we must deny the cross. However, there is a difference between suffering for the sake of love and hating one’s body. The latter is not what the Church asks of us. When the great spiritual masters wrote of hatred of the body, they were trying to address hatred of sin.
We must avoid the danger of scrupulosity. Scrupulosity can do a lot of damage.
Fraternally,
Br. JR, OSF
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