Corporal Mortification - Does the Church Support This?

[TrueLight]

I was shocked to find out that people are causing themselves bodily harm, like whipping themselves to “mortify” their flesh.

Oh, I have seen this kind of stuff on TV, but thought of it as extreme, on the fringe. How common is this?

I always understood “mortifying” the flesh to involve denial. Not necessarily causing yourself pain.

I cannot help but see this as a variant of masochism.

Are there people who administer beatings and such to help someone with their mortification?

Please help me understand.

If you have any links to church documents, that would be helpful.

Thanks.

 

[TimothyH]

It’s true. Now bite your tounge!

Did I get ya?

I sometimes bite my tounge as mortificatcation to help me not eat too much before a business lunch or not to say too much before a big meeting. That’s where the phrase “Bite your tounge” came from - self mortification. It’s no different from taking an uncomfortable chair to help remember humility and similar behaviors.

Blessed John Paul II was known to have slept on the hardwood floor. I suspect that he did this as pennance for you and I. Many Christians have worn hair shirts and I know that there are other practices which would push the limits for normal Christians but have been used from time to time. I’ve never heard of one person administering a beating for another but have heard of self flagellation and “Taking the discipline.” I always thought that these were practiced more in past times but I could be wrong.

One has to be careful when physically mortifying oneself. Small acts which do no lasting harm can be helpful but it has gotten out of hand for some people who are prone to masochistic behavior.

There are many other kinds of mortification including smiling and being joyful in the face of sadness and dispair - something which is often harder to endure than physical pain.

-Tim-

 

[HurricaneAnne]

Here are some links to pertinent pages on the Opus Dei web site. Opus Dei became the subject of scrutiny when the “DaVinci Code” movie came out, because the movie had some crazy monk in it who was a member of Opus Dei beating the you-know-what out of himself.

opusdei.us/art.php?p=16367

and

opusdei.org/art.php?w=32&p=9316

The first is a more accurate description of the practice as it is supposed to be performed. The point is not to cause genuine harm, but rather discomfort (similar to fasting). If you search the internet for images of modern cilices and disciplines, you’ll find that one wouldn’t be able to cause real harm to oneself. The latter article concerns the basis for the practice in Scripture.

This is not a practice I perform myself. However I don’t have a problem with it if it is performed correctly. Corporal mortification is performed for different reasons than the ones that cause some mentally imbalanced individuals to cut themselves or the ones that cause some to visit S&M establishments.

 

[TrueLight]

This is not a practice I perform myself. However I don’t have a problem with it if it is performed correctly. Corporal mortification is performed for different reasons than the ones that cause some mentally imbalanced individuals to cut themselves or the ones that cause some to visit S&M establishments.

Thanks for the links. I never saw the DaVinci code. Now I want to watch it.

Why is someone who is into S&M imbalanced while someone who does this not imbalanced? Can it not be argued that those who are drawn to this practice have the same desires?

 

[GloriousOrder]

TrueLight, mortification in the Catholic Church is depriving yourself of pleasures proper to your nature. Just as God’s grace builds on the nature of the person in communion with Him, so does His chastisement. A regular person with a rightly-ordered view of himself, but who tends to enjoy bodily pleasures a little too much, will require corporal mortification to get themselves out of the habit of being attached to pleasures. A person with S&M fixations, on the other hand, may be rightly-ordered in areas where others have a disordered attachment. For the S&M-fetishist, corporal mortification would simply not be mortification, but pleasure - which is contrary to the point of the operation. I presume this person would do other things to moderate himself!

 

[HurricaneAnne]

Thanks for the links. I never saw the DaVinci code. Now I want to watch it.

Why is someone who is into S&M imbalanced while someone who does this not imbalanced? Can it not be argued that those who are drawn to this practice have the same desires?

They have different desires. People who have psychiatric disorders that cause them to cut themselves or hurt themselves in other ways do so for various reasons, but those reasons usually involve feelings of worthlessness or self-hatred.

People who practice S&M do so because they feel sexually aroused by it.

Both of those situations are very different than a person using small discomforts to help themselves better understand the incredible suffering that Jesus voluntarily accepted.

 

[TrueLight]

It’s true. Now bite your tounge!

Did I get ya?

I sometimes bite my tounge as mortificatcation to help me not eat too much before a business lunch or not to say too much before a big meeting. That’s where the phrase “Bite your tounge” came from - self mortification. It’s no different from taking an uncomfortable chair to help remember humility and similar behaviors.

Interesting. Never knew that.

How about the whole idea of giving scandal? Look what ended up in the DaVinci code.

 

[JackQ]

Thanks for the links. I never saw the DaVinci code. Now I want to watch it.

Why is someone who is into S&M imbalanced while someone who does this not imbalanced? Can it not be argued that those who are drawn to this practice have the same desires?

Some might, but it wouldn’t be fair to suggest it is true of every one of them. The only kind of mortification I ever do is fasting, and, I promise you, I have no secret desire to avoid food.

 

[TrueLight]

TrueLight, mortification in the Catholic Church is depriving yourself of pleasures proper to your nature. Just as God’s grace builds on the nature of the person in communion with Him, so does His chastisement. A regular person with a rightly-ordered view of himself, but who tends to enjoy bodily pleasures a little too much, will require corporal mortification to get themselves out of the habit of being attached to pleasures. A person with S&M fixations, on the other hand, may be rightly-ordered in areas where others have a disordered attachment. For the S&M-fetishist, corporal mortification would simply not be mortification, but pleasure - which is contrary to the point of the operation. I presume this person would do other things to moderate himself!

GloriousOrder, for a new convert, you have a pretty deep understanding of this.

 

[GloriousOrder]

GloriousOrder, for a new convert, you have a pretty deep understanding of this.

Well, I am a genius!

The point is to do spiritual reading. If I show any sort of understanding, it’s because I’m stealing from Ss. John of the Cross, Teresa of Avila, Thomas Aquinas, and others. Just remember: if one thing is infinite, its opposite must be nil; conversely, if a thing is 60, its opposite must be 40 - or 20 and 20 if it has two opposites. Reading Aristotle, as understood and adapted by the Church, imparts remarkable clarity to the operations of the Universe.

Converts can get very zealous, fanatical, and on-fire for Christ, but we can make this superficial. I did this very easily, but post-baptism and confirmation, I find it easier to “see” things: both teachings of the Church and truths of life. Though we have everything, now, we have nothing but through the gift of our Lord Jesus Christ. We must weep many tears before we understand anything!

Anyway, I have a reason for purposefully getting a deeper understanding of right order, health, and virtue in the human being. Certain temptations have plagued me for a long time, and since these particular temptations are unsure in origin even to the Church, it has taken a lot of reading and searching to come to satisfactory conclusions. When even the Holy Church admits it doesn’t know the origin or nature of something, you can feel pretty secure!

 

[Irish_Kathleen]

I find this extremely ridiculous. Maybe people who are cutting themselves are not wrong. NOT. I am sick of people saying that to be holy is to hurt oneself. This is why people leave the church. It is overkill on Christianity.

 

[TrueLight]

Some might, but it wouldn’t be fair to suggest it is true of every one of them. The only kind of mortification I ever do is fasting, and, I promise you, I have no secret desire to avoid food.

 

[HurricaneAnne]

I find this extremely ridiculous. Maybe people who are cutting themselves are not wrong. NOT. I am sick of people saying that to be holy is to hurt oneself. This is why people leave the church. It is overkill on Christianity.

Not entirely sure what you’re saying here. You seem to be defending genuine self-harm via cutting in your second sentence. However you then imply that people on the thread are suggesting that one has to hurt oneself in order to be holy, and associate this with people leaving the Church, thereby giving the action of corporal mortification a negative connotation. Are you saying that it shouldn’t be considered abnormal for a person to cut themselves, or that whacking oneself a few times with a knotted piece of twine (a discipline) is excessive?

Considering that it’s already been established that the corporal mortification we are talking about shouldn’t cause disfigurement or a lasting wound, neither of the two above assertions seem to make any sense.

 

[JReducation]

Now you guys have gotten into something that really interests me, because I got my degree in Ascetical and Mystical Theology. This is fun stuff.

We have to debunk some myths here. The first one is about Bl. John Paul. He did not sleep on the floor, except when he went camping. For a while there was an allegation that he used the discipline too. Later, Pope Benedict himself would clarify that Bl. John Paul was very interested in Carmelite theology and owned several items associated with the ascetical practices of the Carmelites, one of these is a discipline. I believe that it now sits on a credenza in Pope Benedict’s office.

Second myth, the Church never asked anyone to beat the living daylights out of themselves. However, this does not mean that people did not overdo the self mortification, not only when using the discipline, but even fasting. My own Holy Father almost killed himself by too much fasting. These folks lived in different times with a different mindset and did not have the understanding that we have about human psychology and health. The idea that you could become anemic or trigger other health problems from too much mortification was unknown to them.

In religious life we have an ancient custom of using the discipline. However, there are rules for it.

It can only be used with the permission of the superior.

Permission is only granted to those who do not have emotional problems.

It’s only a symbol. Too much is just as bad as not enough. It’s only supposed to remind you of the sufferings of Christ and the need to do penance. Fasting, the culpa, abstinence, hairshirts and other were ways of disciplining mind and body. They are not supposed to do harm or demean. The person has a duty to treat himself with respect. Just as we respect and value the dignity of every other person, we must also show the same respect and appreciation for our dignity. On the flip side, pampering has never helped anyone either. A balance has to be struck (no pun intended) between austerity and self-respect. For this reason the spiritual director or if you’re a religious, the superior or the formation directior, will guide you through proper forms of penance and discipline.

Fraternally,

Br. JR, OSF

 

[TrueLight]

I’m looking at 1 Corinthians 9:27, which in the King James says,

But I keep under my body, and bring [it] into subjection: lest that by any means, when I have preached to others, I myself should be a castaway.

The Douay-Rheims says

But I chastise my body, and bring it into subjection: lest perhaps, when I have preached to others, I myself should become a castaway.

The NIV says:

No, I beat my body and make it my slave so that after I have preached to others, I myself will not be disqualified for the prize.

Now for some reason, I never saw these translations say beat or maybe it never registered.

Does anyone know what that verse says in the Greek?

 

[TrueLight]

Now you guys have gotten into something that really interests me, because I got my degree in Ascetical and Mystical Theology. This is fun stuff.

We have to debunk some myths here. The first one is about Bl. John Paul. He did not sleep on the floor, except when he went camping. For a while there was an allegation that he used the discipline too. Later, Pope Benedict himself would clarify that Bl. John Paul was very interested in Carmelite theology and owned several items associated with the ascetical practices of the Carmelites, one of these is a discipline. I believe that it now sits on a credenza in Pope Benedict’s office.

Second myth, the Church never asked anyone to beat the living daylights out of themselves. However, this does not mean that people did not overdo the self mortification, not only when using the discipline, but even fasting. My own Holy Father almost killed himself by too much fasting. These folks lived in different times with a different mindset and did not have the understanding that we have about human psychology and health. The idea that you could become anemic or trigger other health problems from too much mortification was unknown to them.

In religious life we have an ancient custom of using the discipline. However, there are rules for it.

It can only be used with the permission of the superior.

Permission is only granted to those who do not have emotional problems.

It’s only a symbol. Too much is just as bad as not enough. It’s only supposed to remind you of the sufferings of Christ and the need to do penance. Fasting, the culpa, abstinence, hairshirts and other were ways of disciplining mind and body. They are not supposed to do harm or demean. The person has a duty to treat himself with respect. Just as we respect and value the dignity of every other person, we must also show the same respect and appreciation for our dignity. On the flip side, pampering has never helped anyone either. A balance has to be struck (no pun intended) between austerity and self-respect. For this reason the spiritual director or if you’re a religious, the superior or the formation directior, will guide you through proper forms of penance and discipline.

Fraternally,

Br. JR, OSF

Br. Jr, have you ever heard of anyone administering the “discipline” to anyone else? Seems to me that would be a safer way to do it.

 

[the_phoenix]

When it comes to extra penances, over the years during Lent I’ve done the traditional giving up chocolate thing. From there I went on to give up table salt during Lent … did it for years until it got so I decided to pretty much give up table salt all year round … Until it was discovered that I had low blood pressure and that eating salt was actually good for me rather than bad! So now I use table salt, even during Lent. I also one year gave up drinking tea during Lent … being part British in my ethnicity, that was truly painful.

Now however, my penance tends towards things like giving up TV. At this point, my TV set doesn’t work because I never switched to the new technology. In fact, giving up TV is no longer a penance to me … it’s enjoyable peace and quiet. I sometimes give up listening to the radio while driving in the car, which gives me time to say the Rosary. As you can see, I haven’t given up modern communication altogether, as I’m definitely on the internet posting here on the CAF forums! I suppose I could really cut back the amount of time I spend here.

While I’ve learned to offer up the pain and suffering of life that comes to me as a result of daily living, I don’t personally go out in search of taking on extra pain. Sometimes I’ve offered up headache pain, other times I take Excedrin.

Two areas where there’s room for improvement in my spiritual life? I could definitely be better about saying the Morning Offering, and wearing the scapular.

To those who feel called to corporal mortification … I would say be very careful and cautious about it and definitely seek trustworthy spiritual direction.

 

[Will_S]

I’m looking at 1 Corinthians 9:27 … The Douay-Rheims says…

The annotation in the Rheims New Testament is as follows:

27)

I chastise: The goal of everlasting glory is not promised nor set forth for faith-only men, for such run at random, but it is the prize of them that chastise and subdue their bodies and fleshly desires by fasting, watching, voluntary poverty, and other afflictions. Lord, how far is the carnal doctrine of the sectarians and the manners of these days from the Apostle’s spirit. Wherein even we that be Catholics, though we do not condemn with the protestants these voluntary afflictions as superstitious (much less as superstitious or injurious to Christ’s death) but much commend them, yet we use nothing of the zeal and diligence of our first Christian ancestors herein, and therefore are like to be more subject to God’s temporal chastisements, at the least in the next life, than they were.

Left perhaps: Here may we lambs tremble (saith a holy father) when the ram, the guide of the flock, must so labor and punish himself (besides all his other miseries adjoined to the preaching of the Gospel) lest perhaps he miss the mark. A man might think St. Paul should be as sure and as confident of God’s grace & salvation as we poor wretched captives, but the heretic’s unhappy security, presumption, and faithless persuasion of their salvation is not fides apostolorum but fides daemoniorum, not the faith of the apostles, but the faith of devils.

 

[TrueLight]

When it comes to extra penances, over the years during Lent I’ve done the traditional giving up chocolate thing. From there I went on to give up table salt during Lent … did it for years until it got so I decided to pretty much give up table salt all year round … Until it was discovered that I had low blood pressure and that eating salt was actually good for me rather than bad! So now I use table salt, even during Lent. I also one year gave up drinking tea during Lent … being part British in my ethnicity, that was truly painful.

Now however, my penance tends towards things like giving up TV. At this point, my TV set doesn’t work because I never switched to the new technology. In fact, giving up TV is no longer a penance to me … it’s enjoyable peace and quiet. I sometimes give up listening to the radio while driving in the car, which gives me time to say the Rosary. As you can see, I haven’t given up modern communication altogether, as I’m definitely on the internet posting here on the CAF forums! I suppose I could really cut back the amount of time I spend here.

While I’ve learned to offer up the pain and suffering of life that comes to me as a result of daily living, I don’t personally go out in search of taking on extra pain. Sometimes I’ve offered up headache pain, other times I take Excedrin.

Two areas where there’s room for improvement in my spiritual life? I could definitely be better about saying the Morning Offering, and wearing the scapular.

To those who feel called to corporal mortification … I would say be very careful and cautious about it and definitely seek trustworthy spiritual direction.

Great post.

This is the way I have always seen mortification. I had seen images or movies of folks hurting themselves or having a “brother” hurt them in order to put to death the flesh. I didn’t know people were still doing it in this day and age.

 

[JReducation]

Br. Jr, have you ever heard of anyone administering the “discipline” to anyone else? Seems to me that would be a safer way to do it.

Other than my mother spanking me when I was a kid, no I have not heard of such a practice.

I’m not so sure that it would be such a good idea. The purpose of the discipline is exactly what the word says, to teach oneself and to practice discipline. Part of the discipline, pardoning the redundancy, is to know how to moderate oneself. Hopefully, what one learns from this symbollic action is carried out into one’s life and that would be, to do all things with moderation, to exercise self-control. Only when one learns to exercise self-control does one also learn patience, compassion and great charity. The man who has no control over his impulses, even those that lead him to punish himself for his sins, such a man cannot practice true compassion and true chairty toward others. The commandment to love our neighbor presuposes that we know how to love ourselves. This is very important. It’s not that we love ourselves. People know how to that to the point of endangering their salvation. It’s called Narcisism. The command it to love others as one loves oneself. But one must know HOW to love oneself.

How does one learn to love oneself? Answer . . . by developing discipline. The use of the discipline has two purposes. In the old days, when we used the Latin terminology, we used to say that one used the discipline to do the culpa. The discipline was the little handle with the strips of whatever hanging from it and the culpa was the admission of ones sinfulness.

There were two actions taking place, a symbollic one and a penitential one. They symbollic was the actual striking of oneself. You struck yourself to remind yourself that you needed to discipline your mind and body. Why? Here comes the penitential part, because you knew that your were a sinner and only through the exercise of discipline could you overcome sin.

So what is discipline? It is the exercise of the virtues. If anyone believes that the exercise of virue does not require self-control or discipline, then he or she does not know what virtue is.

I believe this is why it is not profitable to have another person strike you. It’s not a punishment, like a spanking. It’s a symbollic act to remind yourself of a profound truth, that you are sinful and without self-control you will be unable to love as Christ loves.

Striking oneself is only one form of discipline and not a very practical one, because most people don’t know how to do it correctly. There are other forms of discipline that one can probably do better and would achieve the same purpose, such as fasting, abstinence or even manual labor.

Fraternally,

Br. JR, OSF