Corporal mortification

[Spirithound]

Hey y’all,
What does the Church teach about corporal mortification? It seems many saints have practiced some sort of mortification, but I don’t think God wants us to seek out pain.
Thanks,
Spirithound

 

[LilyM]

Hey y’all,
What does the Church teach about corporal mortification? It seems many saints have practiced some sort of mortification, but I don’t think God wants us to seek out pain.
Thanks,
Spirithound

Most of the saints were religious (priests, monks or nuns), and being religious had spiritual directors who advised them in such matters. In some cases, eg St Catherine of Siena, they were actually advised to (and did) tone down some of their excesses of mortification.

There are still some religious orders (Mother Teresa’s nuns being one, Opus Dei another) that habitually or occasionally practice it. But it certainly can be unhealthy if not done under the supervision of a spiritual director.

Certainly we can seek out sacrifice - give up things we enjoy occasionally. This is often of greater benefit to us than simple physical pain. Anything physical should only be done under the guidance of a trustworthy spiritual director.

 

[puzzleannie]

penitential practices, that is the classic practices recommended by the Church, prayer, fasting and almsgiving are proven by 2000 yrs experience to work in changing sinful habits, lessening or removing attachments to sensual pleasures and the sins arising from those attachments, in awakening mindfulness and attention to God’s will, in conversion of heart, and in fostering a spirit of obedience and humility.

One needs the permission of one’s confessor or spiritual director to go beyond those 3, specifically for corporal mortification using some device, because there is a well documented spiritual danger in “doing your own thing” and in falling into a state where such practices actually become a source of gratification or pride.

 

[Mt_28_19_20]

Hey y’all,
What does the Church teach about corporal mortification? It seems many saints have practiced some sort of mortification, but I don’t think God wants us to seek out pain.
Thanks,
Spirithound

Couldn’t find mortification in the Catechism index. However, under 2297 “… Torture which uses physical or moral violence to extract confessions, punish the guilty, frighten opponents, or satisfy hatred is contrary to respect for the person and for human dignity…”

Looking at the example of Jesus, He fasted for forty days and nights in the wilderness before preaching. And He often prayed, and gave bread and healing to many people. Another poster already mentioned prayer, fasting, and almsgiving. In the garden He prayed “My Father, if this cannot pass unless I drink it, thy will be done.” Jesus did not inflict pain upon Himself, He submitted with humility. Another poster also mentioned the danger of pride related to physical mortification.

Personally, I have a hard enough time smiling or listening to some people. That seems like a simpler way to share God’s love and live by the example of Christ, than practicing physical mortification to inflict pain. If it’s not a gift or fruit of the Holy Spirit, seems like caution would be wise. Not sure which virtue inflicting pain would align with.

Just some thoughts, for whatever they are worth, Others may have some insight that I lack at this time.

Michael

 

[wcknight]

There are several religious orders in which self mortification are part of their normal daily routine, the Jesuits and Redemptorists are two that I know of. Self flogging (some to the point of drawing blood), wearing heavy chains or other items that either inflict pain or at least discomfort are regular activities.

It is not something that the regular lay person encounters or understands. I think it was more widely practiced in the middle ages, but it may be that some orders still have this as part of their rules. The reasons behind such things may be valid or not depending on how it is presented.

What may appear to be odd or offbeat to us may be a very legitimate or effective way to accomplish what the practishioners want, ie suffering in union with Christ, discipline to avoid sin or worldly distractions or whatever.

 

[Mt_28_19_20]

It is not something that the regular lay person encounters or understands. I think it was more widely practiced in the middle ages, but it may be that some orders still have this as part of their rules. The reasons behind such things may be valid or not depending on how it is presented.

What may appear to be odd or offbeat to us may be a very legitimate or effective way to accomplish what the practishioners want, ie suffering in union with Christ, discipline to avoid sin or worldly distractions or whatever.

Is someone here willing and able to help a regular lay person understand? Or is this privileged information?

Was thinking about this today, and the analogy of a father and children came to mind. Most would agree that a father would encourage his children to behave properly, do their best in school, not eat too much (especially snacks/candy), and would properly discipline his children when they misbehaved. Would that same father who knows how to give good gifts to his children, encourage his children to intentionally inflict pain on themselves?

Again, some may have insight that I don’t see presently, so am all ears. In the mean time, self-inflicted pain, isolated from helping others in need, isn’t something that seems consistent with a formed Christian conscience, in my opinion.

Michael

 

[Caesar]

Is someone here willing and able to help a regular lay person understand? Or is this privileged information?

Was thinking about this today, and the analogy of a father and children came to mind. Most would agree that a father would encourage his children to behave properly, do their best in school, not eat too much (especially snacks/candy), and would properly discipline his children when they misbehaved. Would that same father who knows how to give good gifts to his children, encourage his children to intentionally inflict pain on themselves?

Again, some may have insight that I don’t see presently, so am all ears. In the mean time, self-inflicted pain, isolated from helping others in need, isn’t something that seems consistent with a formed Christian conscience, in my opinion.

Michael

Anything can be a mortification. Fasting or abstaining from something. Sacrifices in your life.

What you are thinking of though is an ancient practice of the Church wherin many priests and religious would inflict pain on themselves to share in Christ’s pain and to ward off impurity (for example, when he had impure thoughts, St. Benedict threw himself into a rose bush, St. Francis and others did likewise). Many Saints and other important figures in the Church, past and present, have practiced this. In a more modern context, known practicioners have included St. Josemaria, Padre Pio, Mother Teresa, and Pope Paul VI.

 

[Mt_28_19_20]

Anything can be a mortification. Fasting or abstaining from something. Sacrifices in your life.

What you are thinking of though is an ancient practice of the Church wherin many priests and religious would inflict pain on themselves to share in Christ’s pain and to ward off impurity (for example, when he had impure thoughts, St. Benedict threw himself into a rose bush, St. Francis and others did likewise). Many Saints and other important figures in the Church, past and present, have practiced this. In a more modern context, known practicioners have included St. Josemaria, Padre Pio, Mother Teresa, and Pope Paul VI.

True, fasting, prayer, alsmgiving can be a mortification. Sacrifices for God and others. We see that in Scripture and the example of Jesus.

Where do we see self-inflicting pain taught and consistent with the Gospel? Mt 5:29 “” If your right eye makes you stumble, tear it out and throw it from you; for it is better for you to lose one of the parts of your body, than for your whole body to be thrown into hell." Are some misinterpreting verses such as this? Isn’t there enough pain we encounter in the day, without purposefully inflicting more on ourselves? Can’t one ward off impurity by doing something positive, or thinking something positive, instead of throwing oneself on a rose bush? Were is the faith, hope, love, prudence, justice, perseverence, and temperance in such an action?

In short, a list of who did what is not what I’m listening for. I’m listening for why. What is the explanation? Surely these that are viewed as holy were able to verbalize the why? 1 Peter 3:14-16 “But even if you should suffer for the sake of righteousness, you are blessed AND DO NOT FEAR THEIR INTIMIDATION, AND DO NOT BE TROUBLED, but sanctify Christ as Lord in your hearts, always being ready to make a defense to everyone who asks you to give an account for the hope that is in you, yet with gentleness and reverence; and keep a good conscience so that in the thing in which you are slandered, those who revile your good behavior in Christ will be put to shame.”

Michael

 

[Mt_28_19_20]

Anything can be a mortification. Fasting or abstaining from something. Sacrifices in your life.

What you are thinking of though is an ancient practice of the Church wherin many priests and religious would inflict pain on themselves to share in Christ’s pain and to ward off impurity (for example, when he had impure thoughts, St. Benedict threw himself into a rose bush, St. Francis and others did likewise). Many Saints and other important figures in the Church, past and present, have practiced this. In a more modern context, known practicioners have included St. Josemaria, Padre Pio, Mother Teresa, and Pope Paul VI.

True, fasting, prayer, alsmgiving can be a mortification. Sacrifices for God and others. We see that in Scripture and the example of Jesus.

Where do we see self-inflicting pain taught and consistent with the Gospel? Mt 5:29 “” If your right eye makes you stumble, tear it out and throw it from you; for it is better for you to lose one of the parts of your body, than for your whole body to be thrown into hell." Are some misinterpreting verses such as this? Isn’t there enough pain we encounter in the day, without purposefully inflicting more on ourselves? Can’t one ward off impurity by doing something positive, or thinking something positive, instead of throwing oneself on a rose bush? Were is the faith, hope, love, prudence, justice, perseverence, and temperance in such an action?

In short, a list of who did what is not what I’m listening for. I’m listening for why. What is the explanation? Surely these that are viewed as holy were able to verbalize the why? 1 Peter 3:14-16 “But even if you should suffer for the sake of righteousness, you are blessed AND DO NOT FEAR THEIR INTIMIDATION, AND DO NOT BE TROUBLED, but sanctify Christ as Lord in your hearts, always being ready to make a defense to everyone who asks you to give an account for the hope that is in you, yet with gentleness and reverence; and keep a good conscience so that in the thing in which you are slandered, those who revile your good behavior in Christ will be put to shame.”

Michael

 

[Caesar]

True, fasting, prayer, alsmgiving can be a mortification. Sacrifices for God and others. We see that in Scripture and the example of Jesus.

Where do we see self-inflicting pain taught and consistent with the Gospel? Mt 5:29 “” If your right eye makes you stumble, tear it out and throw it from you; for it is better for you to lose one of the parts of your body, than for your whole body to be thrown into hell." Are some misinterpreting verses such as this? Isn’t there enough pain we encounter in the day, without purposefully inflicting more on ourselves? Can’t one ward off impurity by doing something positive, or thinking something positive, instead of throwing oneself on a rose bush? Were is the faith, hope, love, prudence, justice, perseverence, and temperance in such an action?

In short, a list of who did what is not what I’m listening for. I’m listening for why. What is the explanation? Surely these that are viewed as holy were able to verbalize the why? 1 Peter 3:14-16 “But even if you should suffer for the sake of righteousness, you are blessed AND DO NOT FEAR THEIR INTIMIDATION, AND DO NOT BE TROUBLED, but sanctify Christ as Lord in your hearts, always being ready to make a defense to everyone who asks you to give an account for the hope that is in you, yet with gentleness and reverence; and keep a good conscience so that in the thing in which you are slandered, those who revile your good behavior in Christ will be put to shame.”

Michael

Well, to begin with this practice isnt based solely on Scripture (we arent protestants after all). It is certainly not doctrine.

Why? This practice of self-inflicted pain has served for many as a means to share in the sufferings of Our Lord and to do penance for sin. Through this method they are able to experience the pain of Christ- a pain He freely accepted and took upon Himself- in a very real way. A rather literal interpretation of “No pain, no gain”.

 

[Mt_28_19_20]

Well, to begin with this practice isnt based solely on Scripture (we arent protestants after all). It is certainly not doctrine.

Why? This practice of self-inflicted pain has served for many as a means to share in the sufferings of Our Lord and to do penance for sin. Through this method they are able to experience the pain of Christ- a pain He freely accepted and took upon Himself- in a very real way. A rather literal interpretation of “No pain, no gain”.

Testing something against Scripture is consistent with Catholic teaching. As we know: 2 Tim 3:16 “All Scripture is inspired by God and profitable for teaching, for reproof, for correction, for training in righteousness;”

Yes, it is self-inflicted. That does not answer the why. Are you saying the why is that self-inflicted pain causes us to share in the sufferings of Our Lord and to do penance for sin? As contrasted with the pain inflicted on us by others and our own failings? Yes, Jesus freely accepted His sufferings. Yet, where does He self-inflict suffering? Why not do something caring for another, instead of self-inflicting pain?

Michael

 

[Caesar]

Testing something against Scripture is consistent with Catholic teaching. As we know: 2 Tim 3:16 “All Scripture is inspired by God and profitable for teaching, for reproof, for correction, for training in righteousness;”

Yes, it is self-inflicted. That does not answer the why. Are you saying the why is that self-inflicted pain causes us to share in the sufferings of Our Lord and to do penance for sin? As contrasted with the pain inflicted on us by others and our own failings? Yes, Jesus freely accepted His sufferings. Yet, where does He self-inflict suffering? Why not do something caring for another, instead of self-inflicting pain?

Michael

Like St. Josemaria would say, “Esto vir! Be a man!”

What makes people do this? Love for God. I think the end justifies the means here. It is also very helpful to discipline, as any marine can tell you

 

[Mt_28_19_20]

Like St. Josemaria would say, “Esto vir! Be a man!”

What makes people do this? Love for God. I think the end justifies the means here. It is also very helpful to discipline, as any marine can tell you

So you know the Way. Yet that quote does not give an explanation. There are many ways to be a man. With Jesus as our model. Where does He show us the example of self-inflicting pain? Instead of quoting a man, or referring to the marines, how about quoting from Scripture or giving an explanation I can understand? Many people do things and say it is for love of God. That doesn’t necessarily mean it truly is for love of God. How can one know that self-inflicted pain is consistent with God’s will for His children?

Michael

 

[Caesar]

So you know the Way. Yet that quote does not give an explanation. There are many ways to be a man. With Jesus as our model. Where does He show us the example of self-inflicting pain? Instead of quoting a man, or referring to the marines, how about quoting from Scripture or giving an explanation I can understand? Many people do things and say it is for love of God. That doesn’t necessarily mean it truly is for love of God. How can one know that self-inflicted pain is consistent with God’s will for His children?

Michael

We can know through the help and guidance of a Spiritual Director if such a practice would be of any benefit to us.

Judge this practice by it’s results- some of the greatest of the Saints who would sacrifice even their own comfort to be closer to God.

Sacrifice. What is harder? Give money to the poor or to renounce worldly comforts? This is a very personal practice. Pain is good for the soul.

Oh, and I was quoting a SAINT. A man, yes, but also a canonized Saint.

 

[LilyM]

Yes, it is self-inflicted. That does not answer the why. Are you saying the why is that self-inflicted pain causes us to share in the sufferings of Our Lord and to do penance for sin? As contrasted with the pain inflicted on us by others and our own failings? Yes, Jesus freely accepted His sufferings. Yet, where does He self-inflict suffering? Why not do something caring for another, instead of self-inflicting pain?

Michael

Yes the pain that others inflict on us or that is a natural result of our own failings (or that we suffer through illness etc) is also profitable in this way. And so is doing good for others. Three means to the same end. And not mutually exclusive at all. Look at the example of Mother Teresa and her nuns, who ADD self-mortification to their good works for others rather than doing either to the exclusion of the other.

 

[Mt_28_19_20]

We can know through the help and guidance of a Spiritual Director if such a practice would be of any benefit to us.

Judge this practice by it’s results- some of the greatest of the Saints who would sacrifice even their own comfort to be closer to God.

Sacrifice. What is harder? Give money to the poor or to renounce worldly comforts? This is a very personal practice. Pain is good for the soul.

Oh, and I was quoting a SAINT. A man, yes, but also a canonized Saint.

“how about quoting from Scripture or giving an explanation I can understand?” saying such and such great saint did it does not convey an understanding or ability to defend/explain the practice

Is your spiritual director always correct? How does one test what is encouraged?

Which is harder? Are they exclusive? Neither implies self-inflicted pain.

We are all called to be saints. He was still a man, and none of his writings are inspired by God as is Sacred Scripture. Which would you rather base an explanation on, Sacred Scripture, or a man’s writings?

Michael

 

[Caesar]

Did you know that Our Blessed Lady commanded the three children at Fatima to wear tight cords around their waists so as to cause discomfort?

 

[Caesar]

“how about quoting from Scripture or giving an explanation I can understand?” saying such and such great saint did it does not convey an understanding or ability to defend/explain the practice

Is your spiritual director always correct? How does one test what is encouraged?

Which is harder? Are they exclusive? Neither implies self-inflicted pain.

We are all called to be saints. He was still a man, and none of his writings are inspired by God as is Sacred Scripture. Which would you rather base an explanation on, Sacred Scripture, or a man’s writings?

Michael

I would base an explanation on the tradition of the Church, which includes Sacred Scripture.

 

[Mt_28_19_20]

Yes the pain that others inflict on us or that is a natural result of our own failings (or that we suffer through illness etc) is also profitable in this way. And so is doing good for others. Three means to the same end. And not mutually exclusive at all. Look at the example of Mother Teresa and her nuns, who ADD self-mortification to their good works for others rather than doing either to the exclusion of the other.

I know I’m repeating myself. However, two of the three appear consistent with Scripture, in my opinion. Please explain to me how self-mortification is consistent with what Scripture teaches. Where are the examples of self-mortification in the New Testament? Or the Old Testament? Do we test based on what Mother Teresa did, or on Scripture?

Michael

 

[Mt_28_19_20]

Yes the pain that others inflict on us or that is a natural result of our own failings (or that we suffer through illness etc) is also profitable in this way. And so is doing good for others. Three means to the same end. And not mutually exclusive at all. Look at the example of Mother Teresa and her nuns, who ADD self-mortification to their good works for others rather than doing either to the exclusion of the other.

I know I’m repeating myself. However, two of the three appear consistent with Scripture, in my opinion. Please explain to me how self-mortification is consistent with what Scripture teaches. Where are the examples of self-mortification in the New Testament? Or the Old Testament? Do we test based on what Mother Teresa did, or on Scripture?

Michael