Corporal mortification

[Mt_28_19_20]

Christ is found through the teachings of the Church, which are always compatible with Sacred Scripture, and the examples shown in the lives of His Saints.

Yes, Christ is found through the teachings of the Church, which are always compatible with Sacred Scripture. That does not guarantee individuals from over or under interpreting the teachings, including the examples in the lives of His Saints. We are all called to be saints, and the canonized saints were sinners just as we are. Word of advise, do not imitate their sins. And unless they had no use of confession, or were sinless, that does mean we are to be discerning, whether it is in considering imitating a specific action of a Saint, or an individual Catholic we know and respect for their apparent holiness.

Michael

 

[Caesar]

Who is promoting person study of Sacred Scripture outside the teachings of the Church? I have not done so. And, Sacred Scripture tells us in 2 Tim 3:16 “All Scripture is inspired by God and profitable for teaching, for reproof, for correction, for training in righteousness;” so should we not understand the teachings of the Church in light and context of Sacred Scripture? Not one over the other, both in harmony.

Scripture is part of the teachings of the Church. If a passage of Scripture seems to contradict the teachings of the Church (which it can never do, but because of the heresies rampant in the world many will claim such things) then we must look first to the teachings of the Church. What does the Church say and how does Scripture, which is a product of the Church, reflect this?

Now, where does the Church officially teach throwing oneself on a rose bush, or self-inflicting physical? Or following the examples of individuals, whether they by canonized saints, or righteous Catholics we know, without understanding our faith from the official teachings and Sacred Scripture, so as to avoid over extrapolating the wording of teachings?

Corporal mortification is a discipline, not an infallible doctrine. And, as I have shown you in above posts, it is an ancient discipline supported by the Church past and present.

Show me where the Church condemns it?

Yes, Christ is found through the teachings of the Church, which are always compatible with Sacred Scripture. That does not guarantee individuals from over or under interpreting the teachings, including the examples in the lives of His Saints. We are all called to be saints, and the canonized saints were sinners just as we are. Word of advise, do not imitate their sins. And unless they had no use of confession, or were sinless, that does mean we are to be discerning, whether it is in considering imitating a specific action of a Saint, or an individual Catholic we know and respect for their apparent holiness.

So, corporal mortification is a sin then? Is it venial or mortal? If it was mortal then I’m afraid the countless Saints who practiced it cannot be Saints at all, having died under the stain of mortal sin.

If it was wrong, it would have been recognized as such and phased out of the Church many centuries ago. Has it? No. Corporal mortification is a discipline that has been supported throughout the history of the Church. It cannot be a sin and it cannot be wrong.

 

[wcknight]

No way, no how, can corporal mortifications ever be considered a sin in any manner, not venial and certainly not mortal.

Jesus Himself, gave us the ultimate example of corporal mortification, by His Passion from the tortures of being scourged, crowned with thorns and His crucifixion. He allowed Himself to be tortured and killed.

He did not do it Himself, but everyone knows He allowed it to happen.

 

[cheeto1]

Short answer:

The church doesn’t condemn it. It is encouraged by the
church but only in private confession. You have to ask the
priest if God wants it for you.

 

[Mt_28_19_20]

Scripture is part of the teachings of the Church. If a passage of Scripture seems to contradict the teachings of the Church (which it can never do, but because of the heresies rampant in the world many will claim such things) then we must look first to the teachings of the Church. What does the Church say and how does Scripture, which is a product of the Church, reflect this?

AND, in understanding the teachings of the Church, we must take them in context of Scripture. Otherwise one may assume more than was intended. One may assume more about corporal mortification than is intended in Church teaching. Do you find it interesting that mortification is not indexed in the Catechism? So, yes, what does the Church say? Throw oneself on a rose bush? How do we interpret the Church teaching on corporal mortification in light of Mt 5 :27-30? “You have heard that it was said, ‘YOU SHALL NOT COMMIT ADULTERY’; but I say to you that everyone who looks at a woman with lust for her has already committed adultery with her in his heart. If your right eye makes you stumble, tear it out and throw it from you; for it is better for you to lose one of the parts of your body, than for your whole body to be thrown into hell. If your right hand makes you stumble, cut it off and throw it from you; for it is better for you to lose one of the parts of your body, than for your whole body to go into hell.”
In Church history some priests castrated themselves, yet this form of corporal mortification is not condoned by the Church. That is self-inflicted injury.

Consider Romans 2:28-29 “For he is not a Jew who is one outwardly, nor is circumcision that which is outward in the flesh. But he is a Jew who is one inwardly; and circumcision is that which is of the heart, by the Spirit, not by the letter; and his praise is not from men, but from God.”

Galations 5 speaks of crucifying the flesh. In context, what does this mean, since this applies to all faithful Christians?
Gal 5 “It was for freedom that Christ set us free; therefore keep standing firm and do not be subject again to a yoke of slavery. Behold I, Paul, say to you that if you receive circumcision, Christ will be of no benefit to you. And I testify again to every man who receives circumcision, that he is under obligation to keep the whole Law. You have been severed from Christ, you who are seeking to be justified by law; you have fallen from grace. or we through the Spirit, by faith, are waiting for the hope of righteousness. For in Christ Jesus neither circumcision nor uncircumcision means anything, but faith working through love. You were running well; who hindered you from obeying the truth? This persuasion did not come from Him who calls you. A little leaven leavens the whole lump of dough. I have confidence in you in the Lord that you will adopt no other view; but the one who is disturbing you will bear his judgment, whoever he is. But I, brethren, if I still preach circumcision, why am I still persecuted? Then the stumbling block of the cross has been abolished. I wish that those who are troubling you would even mutilate themselves. For you were called to freedom, brethren; only do not turn your freedom into an opportunity for the flesh, but through love serve one another. For the whole Law is fulfilled in one word, in the statement, “YOU SHALL LOVE YOUR NEIGHBOR AS YOURSELF.” But if you bite and devour one another, take care that you are not consumed by one another. But I say, walk by the Spirit, and you will not carry out the desire of the flesh. For the flesh sets its desire against the Spirit, and the Spirit against the flesh; for these are in opposition to one another, so that you may not do the things that you please. But if you are led by the Spirit, you are not under the Law. Now the deeds of the flesh are evident, which are: immorality, impurity, sensuality, idolatry, sorcery, enmities, strife, jealousy, outbursts of anger, disputes, dissensions, factions, envying, drunkenness, carousing, and things like these, of which I forewarn you, just as I have forewarned you, that those who practice such things will not nherit the kingdom of God. But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, patience, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, gentleness, self-control; against such things there is no law. Now those who belong to Christ Jesus have crucified the flesh with its passions and desires. If we live by the Spirit, let us also walk by the Spirit. Let us not become boastful, challenging one another, envying one another.”

Michael

 

[Mt_28_19_20]

No way, no how, can corporal mortifications ever be considered a sin in any manner, not venial and certainly not mortal.

Jesus Himself, gave us the ultimate example of corporal mortification, by His Passion from the tortures of being scourged, crowned with thorns and His crucifixion. He allowed Himself to be tortured and killed.

He did not do it Himself, but everyone knows He allowed it to happen.

Of course corporal mortifications that are in accord with God’s will are not a sin. The question is what acts constitute corporal mortification that is in accord with God’s will, and how do we discern such? Even an act that is consistent with God’s will, such as prayer and fasting, if done out of pride, without humility, may risk an element of sinfulness.
Jesus gave us the ultimate example of obedience, and considering others before self. He allowed Himself to be tortured and killed. He did not torture and kill Himself. That would be self mutilation and suicide, contrary to God’s will.

Michael

1 Cor 6:12-20 " All things are lawful for me, but not all things are profitable. All things are lawful for me, but I will not be mastered by anything. Food is for the stomach and the stomach is for food, but God will do away with both of them Yet the body is not for immorality, but for the Lord, and the Lord is for the body. Now God has not only raised the Lord, but will also raise us up through His power. Do you not know that your bodies are members of Christ? Shall I then take away the members of Christ and make them members of a prostitute? May it never be! Or do you not know that the one who joins himself to a prostitute is one body with her? For He says, “THE TWO SHALL BECOME ONE FLESH.” But the one who joins himself to the Lord is one spirit with Him. Flee immorality. Every other sin that a man commits is outside the body, but the immoral man sins against his own body. Or do you not know that your body is a temple of the Holy Spirit who is in you, whom you have from God, and that you are not your own? For you have been bought with a price: therefore glorify God in your body."

 

[Caesar]

AND, in understanding the teachings of the Church, we must take them in context of Scripture. Otherwise one may assume more than was intended. One may assume more about corporal mortification than is intended in Church teaching. Do you find it interesting that mortification is not indexed in the Catechism? So, yes, what does the Church say? Throw oneself on a rose bush? How do we interpret the Church teaching on corporal mortification in light of Mt 5 :27-30? “You have heard that it was said, ‘YOU SHALL NOT COMMIT ADULTERY’; but I say to you that everyone who looks at a woman with lust for her has already committed adultery with her in his heart. If your right eye makes you stumble, tear it out and throw it from you; for it is better for you to lose one of the parts of your body, than for your whole body to be thrown into hell. If your right hand makes you stumble, cut it off and throw it from you; for it is better for you to lose one of the parts of your body, than for your whole body to go into hell.”
In Church history some priests castrated themselves, yet this form of corporal mortification is not condoned by the Church. That is self-inflicted injury.

It is not in the Catechism (might be better, previous Catechisms, I’ll have to check) because it is a DISCIPLINE, not Doctrine. A Discipline, like Latin or the Rosary or any number of other beautiful traditions of the Church.

Mortification of the flesh purges the body and soul of the Seven Deadly Sins and unites one in suffering with Our Lord. And yes, this does include self-inflicted pain. We can see how effective this was to warding off sin in the lives of the Saints.

I am not saying it is necessary, but many faithful Catholics have found this to be an important personal penance that reminds us of the suffering and pain of Christ and drives out sin. Not least among these are the greatest of the Saints. Even contemporary Saints and Popes have found this to be effective, including Blessed Pius IX, the same who stood up to injustice, relativism and modernism, and withstood the attacks of Freemasonry. And then we must remember that Our Lady herself asked the children at Fatima to mortify themselves.

 

[LilyM]

Of course corporal mortifications that are in accord with God’s will are not a sin. The question is what acts constitute corporal mortification that is in accord with God’s will, and how do we discern such?

We discern such by asking and following the advice of a spiritual director who knows us well and can advise us - as you have been told time and time again. Why did you even need to ask the question???

And while we don’t know that Jesus practiced corporal mortification, we DO know that John the Baptist - of whom Christ said without any qualification that ‘no greater man was born of woman’ - most certainly wore a hair shirt, which is one form of corporal mortification. Now did Jesus say ‘no greater man’ or did he say ‘no greater man, except for that bit with the hairshirt, I don’t want any of my followers ever doing that’

 

[Mintaka]

Re: the rose bush

The reason this story is oft repeated is that it’s unusual and makes for a good story. Like St. Kevin not disturbing the bird that nested on his hand.

 

[Mt_28_19_20]

It is not in the Catechism (might be better, previous Catechisms, I’ll have to check) because it is a DISCIPLINE, not Doctrine. A Discipline, like Latin or the Rosary or any number of other beautiful traditions of the Church.

Mortification of the flesh purges the body and soul of the Seven Deadly Sins and unites one in suffering with Our Lord. And yes, this does include self-inflicted pain. We can see how effective this was to warding off sin in the lives of the Saints.

I am not saying it is necessary, but many faithful Catholics have found this to be an important personal penance that reminds us of the suffering and pain of Christ and drives out sin. Not least among these are the greatest of the Saints. Even contemporary Saints and Popes have found this to be effective, including Blessed Pius IX, the same who stood up to injustice, relativism and modernism, and withstood the attacks of Freemasonry. And then we must remember that Our Lady herself asked the children at Fatima to mortify themselves.

Why look for a “better” previous Catechism? Don’t we progress, not regress, in the latest Catechism, with fuller understanding?

Nowhere do I see throwing oneself on a rose bush as encouraged or condoned by official Church teaching. One Pope mentions the act. That is not the same as encouraging the act. My spiritual director and confessor pointed out no where were others directed to follow the example. Either way, the impression I get from some is an view bordering on Saint worship. Catholic teachings, Traditions, and disciplines in general should apply to all the faithful, should they not? No special “clubs” or “tricks of the trade” for some select, “elite” that the “ordinary” lay Catholic “can’t handle” due to a perception of different levels of calls to holiness. We are all called to be holy, and if self-inflicted physical injury is good for some, then why not for all? Because it is not consistent with Church teaching. If it is, PLEASE show me the reference. AND if you are going to defend the “discipline” admit it is a discipline you practice regularly, otherwise, why defend it or why not utilize it?

Michael

 

[Caesar]

Why look for a “better” previous Catechism? Don’t we progress, not regress, in the latest Catechism, with fuller understanding?

Nowhere do I see throwing oneself on a rose bush as encouraged or condoned by official Church teaching. One Pope mentions the act. That is not the same as encouraging the act. My spiritual director and confessor pointed out no where were others directed to follow the example. Either way, the impression I get from some is an view bordering on Saint worship. Catholic teachings, Traditions, and disciplines in general should apply to all the faithful, should they not? No special “clubs” or “tricks of the trade” for some select, “elite” that the “ordinary” lay Catholic “can’t handle” due to a perception of different levels of calls to holiness. We are all called to be holy, and if self-inflicted physical injury is good for some, then why not for all? Because it is not consistent with Church teaching. If it is, PLEASE show me the reference. AND if you are going to defend the “discipline” admit it is a discipline you practice regularly, otherwise, why defend it or why not utilize it?

Michael

I am not saying it is for all of the faithful. This discipline should be used only under the direction of a qualified Spiritual Director, and then only by those whom it truly benefits. It is for that reason that no recent Popes have advocated it while speaking highly of this practice- but none of them have actualy denounced it.

And if you must know, the Catechism of St. Pius X, the Roman Catechism of the Council of Trent and the Baltimore Catechism are all accepted by the Church, just unfortunately not used to such a great extent as they once were. And no, the Doctrines of the Church do not progress, nor do they regress, they remain constant.

 

[Chancellare]

Couldn’t find mortification in the Catechism index. However, under 2297 “… Torture which uses physical or moral violence to extract confessions, punish the guilty, frighten opponents, or satisfy hatred is contrary to respect for the person and for human dignity…”

Looking at the example of Jesus, He fasted for forty days and nights in the wilderness before preaching. And He often prayed, and gave bread and healing to many people. Another poster already mentioned prayer, fasting, and almsgiving. In the garden He prayed “My Father, if this cannot pass unless I drink it, thy will be done.” Jesus did not inflict pain upon Himself, He submitted with humility. Another poster also mentioned the danger of pride related to physical mortification.

Personally, I have a hard enough time smiling or listening to some people. That seems like a simpler way to share God’s love and live by the example of Christ, than practicing physical mortification to inflict pain. If it’s not a gift or fruit of the Holy Spirit, seems like caution would be wise. Not sure which virtue inflicting pain would align with.

Just some thoughts, for whatever they are worth, Others may have some insight that I lack at this time.

Michael

Catholic encyclopaedia have mouthfuls to say on this:

It’s one of the methods in training the soul to virtuous and holy living. The term originated with St. Paul, who traces an instructive analogy between Christ dying to a mortal and rising to an immortal life, and His followers who renounce their past life of sin and rise through grace to a new life of holiness. “If you live after the flesh”, says the apostle, “you shall die, but if through the spirit you mortify the deeds of the flesh, you shall live” (Romans 8:13; cf. also Colossians 3:5, and Galatians 5:24). From this original use of the term, we see that mortification, though under one aspect it is a law of death, under another and more fundamental aspect it is a law of life, and does not destroy but elevates nature. It kills the disease of the soul, and by slaying this it restores and invigorates the soul’s true life.

The primary disease it slays is sin. How: By impelling to true penitence and to the use of those means of forgiveness and restoration which our Lord has confided to His Church. It helps to overcome temptations to sin by inducing the will to accept hardships, however grace, rather than yield to the temptations. The invitation to partake is open to all, but those who wish to be more thorough in the service of Christ, carry it further, and strive with its aid to subdue, so far as is possible in this life, that “rebellion” of the flesh against the spirit which is the internal incentive to sin.

It is the triumph over passions and sensual concupiscences, which if allowed to go unchecked, can be so pernicious an influence on human conduct. It is simply to train the senses by judicious repression to subordinate and conform one’s desires to the rule of reason and in faith, as discerned by the mind. But for this training to be effectual it is not sufficient to restrain these desires of the flesh only when their demands are unlawful. They represent a twist in the nature, and must be treated as one treats a twisted wire when endeavouring to straighten it, namely, by twisting it the opposite way. Thus, earnest Catholics are constantly found denying themselves even in matters which in themselves are confessedly lawful.

As such it can then cure bad habits. But the cure is more so because of its spiritual objective which is pleasing to God.