Correct penalty?

[anjoh66]

A Brazilian bishop has recently excommunicated a mother of a nine year old girl who was raped by her step-father, as well as the doctors who carried out the abortion.

The excommunication is supported by Vatican senior Cardinal Giovanni Battista Re.

Is the church rule to excommunicate in this case? A ordinary murderer or any woman who has an abortion behind is not excommunicated, so why this penalty in this case?

smh.com.au/world/vatican-defends-excommunication-for-raped-nineyearold-girls-abortion-20090308-8s3s.html

time.com/time/world/article/0,8599,1883598,00.html

 

[kage_ar]

The Church penalty for abortion is very clear:

scborromeo.org/ccc/para/2272.htm

**2272 **Formal cooperation in an abortion constitutes a grave offense. The Church attaches the canonical penalty of excommunication to this crime against human life. “A person who procures a completed abortion incurs excommunication latae sententiae,” “by the very commission of the offense,” and subject to the conditions provided by Canon Law. The Church does not thereby intend to restrict the scope of mercy. Rather, she makes clear the gravity of the crime committed, the irreparable harm done to the innocent who is put to death, as well as to the parents and the whole of society.

You might want to visit this thread on the same topic:

forums.catholic-questions.org/showthread.php?t=317550

 

[Snerticus]

The Church penalty for abortion is very clear:

scborromeo.org/ccc/para/2272.htm

**2272 **Formal cooperation in an abortion constitutes a grave offense. The Church attaches the canonical penalty of excommunication to this crime against human life. “A person who procures a completed abortion incurs excommunication latae sententiae,” “by the very commission of the offense,” and subject to the conditions provided by Canon Law. The Church does not thereby intend to restrict the scope of mercy. Rather, she makes clear the gravity of the crime committed, the irreparable harm done to the innocent who is put to death, as well as to the parents and the whole of society.

You might want to visit this thread on the same topic:

forums.catholic-questions.org/showthread.php?t=317550

What I don’t understand is why, out of millions of Catholics who probably have gotten abortions, do we find this now? There have been millions of casual abortions performed, yet none of them (that I’m aware of anyway - or who at least made the news) was excommunicated because of it. Now, a life threatening situation comes about and probably because the mother was scared, decided to okay the abortion. No counsel, no explanations, just excommunication. I would understand if that was the normal way the Church handles every abortion case, but obviously it’s not or we would have heard about it by now. This really has me perplexed. Quesioning my faith? No. But perplexed about what happened? Absolutely.

A ordinary murderer or any woman who has an abortion behind is not excommunicated, so why this penalty in this case?

I wish someone would anser this question. To me, it’s the one that matters.

 

[kage_ar]

What I don’t understand is why, out of millions of Catholics who probably have gotten abortions, do we find this now? There have been millions of casual abortions performed, yet none of them (that I’m aware of anyway - or who at least made the news) was excommunicated because of it. Now, a life threatening situation comes about and probably because the mother was scared, decided to okay the abortion. .

The CCC link I posted will take you to Canon law references.

The penalty for abortion is not super secret, it is part of our teaching that every Catholic should know.

No counsel, no explanations, just excommunication.

There is always counsel before a public announcement of excommunication. It is private, and the formal public statement is a last resort when those in persistant public sin refuse to repent.

"A ordinary murderer or any woman who has an abortion behind is not excommunicated, so why this penalty in this case? "

I wish someone would anser this question. To me, it’s the one that matters.

The CCC will give you a good reading on the gravity of murder.

Again, the CCC reference and associated documents show you that “A person who procures a completed abortion incurs excommunication latae sententiae,” that means any person.

Other CCC references:

**2322 **From its conception, the child has the right to life. Direct abortion, that is, abortion willed as an end or as a means, is a “criminal” practice (*GS *27 § 3), gravely contrary to the moral law. The Church imposes the canonical penalty of excommunication for this crime against human life.

**2271 **Since the first century the Church has affirmed the moral evil of every procured abortion. This teaching has not changed and remains unchangeable. Direct abortion, that is to say, abortion willed either as an end or a means, is gravely contrary to the moral law:
You shall not kill the embryo by abortion and shall not cause the newborn to perish. God, the Lord of life, has entrusted to men the noble mission of safeguarding life, and men must carry it out in a manner worthy of themselves. Life must be protected with the utmost care from the moment of conception: abortion and infanticide are abominable crimes.

 

[Snerticus]

The CCC link I posted will take you to Canon law references.

The penalty for abortion is not super secret, it is part of our teaching that every Catholic should know.

There is always counsel before a public announcement of excommunication. It is private, and the formal public statement is a last resort when those in persistant public sin refuse to repent.

The CCC will give you a good reading on the gravity of murder.

Again, the CCC reference and associated documents show you that “A person who procures a completed abortion incurs excommunication latae sententiae,” that means any person.

Other CCC references:

**2322 **From its conception, the child has the right to life. Direct abortion, that is, abortion willed as an end or as a means, is a “criminal” practice (*GS *27 § 3), gravely contrary to the moral law. The Church imposes the canonical penalty of excommunication for this crime against human life.

**2271 **Since the first century the Church has affirmed the moral evil of every procured abortion. This teaching has not changed and remains unchangeable. Direct abortion, that is to say, abortion willed either as an end or a means, is gravely contrary to the moral law:
You shall not kill the embryo by abortion and shall not cause the newborn to perish. God, the Lord of life, has entrusted to men the noble mission of safeguarding life, and men must carry it out in a manner worthy of themselves. Life must be protected with the utmost care from the moment of conception: abortion and infanticide are abominable crimes.

I understand what you are saying, I agree with it 100%. You are not listening, or more likely I am not expressing myself correctly. I have no problem with church teaching. I do have a problem with this situation because I have never, ever heard of someone being excommunicated for an abortion. I already knew everything that you posted. Well most of it anyway. I’ve used it in defense of the Church on abortion issues myself. I’m not asking why the Church excommunicates because of an abortion.

I’m asking why only in this case and not millions others?!!! It seems they have ignored other, casual abortions and this one, for more serious reasons than “I can’t afford it” or “I just don’t want one right now”, they decided to excommunicate.

I don’t know the specifics of the case, if you do, perhaps you can enlighten me. Was the mother defiant at cousel? Did she appear to not care about God but only her daughter? Did she denounce her faith in front of the Bishop or something? I know she was scared for her daughter’s life. From what I understand (and *this *I didn’t look up in the Catechism) is that if one is afraid of the outcome, and decides to commit an act of mortal sin in fear of their life, then it’s not a mortal sin because they are not doing it deliberately, but in fear that if they didn’t they would be in danger. Is this correct or am I way off base?

 

[kage_ar]

I was not there, however, I have sadly been very close to someone who had a public excommunication.

Let’s take Jane Doe up the road. She is Catholic, her daughter gets pregnant, she takes the daughter up to her local planned parenthood and has the baby killed.

Has Jane Doe incurred excommunication? Yes. Did Jane Doe go to the press and tell them that she took her daughter to the abortion clinic? No. So, no one but the mother and daughter know about it. The mother feels regret, goes to Confession, and is absolved and the excommunication is lifted (assuming this Priest is in a place where the Bishop has given his Priests the ability to remove the excommunication for abortion).

Let’s assume Jane Doe decides to go on the news and say “I am a Catholic and am going to take my daughter to get an abortion.”

Her Priest would contact her, try to counsel her, to explain how serious this sin is, to encourage her repent of this. She continues to be public in her sin. The Church (either locally or at the Diocesean level) would have no choice but to speak publicly about her incurring the excommunication.

 

[Belgarion]

I understand what you are saying, I agree with it 100%. You are not listening, or more likely I am not expressing myself correctly. I have no problem with church teaching. I do have a problem with this situation because I have never, ever heard of someone being excommunicated for an abortion. I already knew everything that you posted. Well most of it anyway. I’ve used it in defense of the Church on abortion issues myself. I’m not asking why the Church excommunicates because of an abortion.

I’m asking why only in this case and not millions others?!!! It seems they have ignored other, casual abortions and this one, for more serious reasons than “I can’t afford it” or “I just don’t want one right now”, they decided to excommunicate.

I don’t know the specifics of the case, if you do, perhaps you can enlighten me. Was the mother defiant at cousel? Did she appear to not care about God but only her daughter? Did she denounce her faith in front of the Bishop or something? I know she was scared for her daughter’s life. From what I understand (and *this *I didn’t look up in the Catechism) is that if one is afraid of the outcome, and decides to commit an act of mortal sin in fear of their life, then it’s not a mortal sin because they are not doing it deliberately, but in fear that if they didn’t they would be in danger. Is this correct or am I way off base?

I’m guessing that the other “Millions” of Catholic abortions were not made public…So how would they be excommunicated if no one else knew?

Also, one big thing, the bishops in the U.S. are (for the most part) a bunch of wimps.
Take the people who SUPPORT abortion, who are not excommunicated, despite the fact that their position is made public.

Brazil is a little more devout overall. And since this case was publicized, the news of the excommunication was also publicized.

You wouldn’t hear about it, or any other, without it being in the news.

 

[Snerticus]

Okay, so I was thinking about this…

If a person who got an abortion confessed it to the priest, would the Church still have the ability to excommunicate? Now, I’m sure that people have confessed their abortions to priests before. Probably nowhere near the amount that actually took place, but still…

In those cases, shouldn’t those people have been excommunicated?

In what I’ve read and used in the Catechism, it doesn’t mention that excommunication would be lifted if they went to confession, or that if they went to confession after committing the sin, they would not still be excommunicated.

 

[kmoore]

Usually a public notice of excomunication is only given when the offense is public. Especially when the offense is publicly supported by a suposed Catholic. It is the sin of giving scandal and misleading other Catholics in a public situation that caused a Bishop to publicly excomunicat some one. I could cause a required public retraction of ones position before excomunication is lifted.

 

[Snerticus]

Okay, so one last question here.

What about the mother’s fear for the daughter’s life? Doesn’t that weigh in on mortal sin and excommunication? Again, I don’t know how devout this mother is/was or what the details are. Maybe she was just angry and had the abortions done (for all I know) flippantly.

 

[kage_ar]

This will explain what excommunication is:

newadvent.org/cathen/05678a.htm

A couple of quotes:

“Apart from the rare cases in which excommunication is imposed for a fixed period and then ceases of itself, it is always removed by absolution.”

 

[kmoore]

Okay, so one last question here.

What about the mother’s fear for the daughter’s life? Doesn’t that weigh in on mortal sin and excommunication? Again, I don’t know how devout this mother is/was or what the details are. Maybe she was just angry and had the abortions done (for all I know) flippantly.

We cannot, and I do not pretend to know the mothers intention or other mitigating circumstances which obviously come in to play here, we can only assume that the Bishop in this case has made a determination on this and made his decision.

 

[Amber2]

Dear A
I understand why you are wondering. Me too. I think this little girl might have died without the abortion. That is at least what the doctors say and how can the Bishop know it better then? and excommunicate the mom. Also something that bugs me quite a lot is that the Bishop seems to have publically excommunicated the doctors and the mom but there is no mention that the person who raped his stepdaughter and is really guilty in all of this, that he was also mentioned. It would have looked nice if he had been mentioned too if you ask me as it would have shown concern for the little girl and not just the children she was carrying.
Hugs amber

 

[Snerticus]

And we have to wonder, since this is first publicized by the secular media, how much is inferred and how much is actually reported?

Most of the time, the secular media gives us what it wants to and spins it their way. They have the annoying habit of leaving out the important parts. The parts that make sense of the story.

Especially when reporting about the Catholic Church.

 

[kage_ar]

We do not know if the stepfather is Catholic or if he consented to the abortion. What he did is a grave sin and is a crime. The civil authorities are handling the criminal side of it, and we should assume his pastor is dealing with the spiritual.

What we do know is that the mother and the doctors knowingly, and willingly procured/preformed this abortion and as such incurred the correct Ecclesiastical penalty.

 

[noclevername]

A couple of random things:

I read the report and this girl was pregnant with twins. TWINS!! A multiple pregnancy is hard on a fully mature woman, can you imagine what it could do to a nine year old?

One of the doctors said he was going to continue to go to mass despite the bishop’s orders.

Also, I am not saying anything bad about the Catholic church but excommunicating people for sins like this is counter productive. Those are the people who are in the most need to be nearer to God.

 

[Amber2]

I read the stepfather was catholic. I just wonder why he was not ex-communicated with the others.

 

[Belgarion]

Any action that is evil, but done with good intentions, is still an evil act.

This is why abortions are not allowed in the case of saving the mother.
Now, you can try to save the baby by doing some sort of transplant. The baby (or babies in this case) will likely die, but you were giving them that chance.
Thus is becomes a good act, with good intentions, with an unfortunate end, but not an evil one.

There. Thread resolved.

Though I welcome any efforts to counter me and my elitist arguments.

 

[Phemie]

I read the stepfather was catholic. I just wonder why he was not ex-communicated with the others.

Unless he actively participated in the abortion (isn’t he in jail?) there would be no reason to excommunicate him. There is no penalty of excommunication for his sin/crime.

Let’s be clear though, the people involved excommunicated THEMSELVES by their actions: being involved in procuring an abortion is automatic excommunication. The bishop just made that excommunication public.

To the previous poster who asked, if someone who had an abortion goes to confession she will usually be granted absolution provided that the priest is able to do so. Some bishops do not grant their priests that faculty and the woman would have to go confess directly to the bishop. Once the sin is confessed and absolved the excommunication no longer exists. A priest could not declare an excommunication based on something that he heard during confession - that would violate the seal.

 

[Belgarion]

sigh…Ah I love debating this stuff…

There’s another thread on this in the secular news forum. Phemie should head over there for some fun