Correct Procedure?

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In the past week, there have been several threads about what is “correct” and “reverent” at Mass.

A partial list of the topics includes “handclapping,” “cuddling,” and “resting an arm on the pew back.” These are just the topics I’ve been involved with.

Let’s assume that a parishioner observes a behavior like this during Mass, and they are convinced that it is distracting, irreverent, incorrect, or a matter of liturgical abuse.

What is the proper procedure for getting this behavior corrected/eliminated from the Mass?

Should the observer go to their priest? The usher? Or should they go directly to the parishioner who is performing the improper behavior/gesture, etc. and tell them to please discontinue their behavior in the future?

Or is there some other “procedure” that should be followed?

I’ve never noticed anything offensive, but then, I’m a convert, so to me, all Catholics, even the charismatic ones, look inhibited and super-reverent during Mass. I guess I don’t have the proper “frame of reference” to spot bad Mass behaviors.

It seems to me that something like this could really be a can of worms. I guess I would rather not say anything, just “offer it up,” rather than take a chance on offending someone so badly that they leave the parish in tears and either attend another parish or quit the Catholic Church entirely. I wouldn’t want someone else’s soul on my head just because I didn’t want them to chew gum or rub their husband’s back. But that’s JMO.

One more thing. Is this correct “procedure” written up anywhere, e.g., in the Catechism?

Thanks!
 
When I first moved to Austin, TX, I was going to 2 different parishes at the same time to have some experiences about them. One of them, people dress up whichever way they watned; the other, priest would ask them to leave the mass and go home change.

After few months attending, I wrote an e-amail to the priest and ask him to say something about dress-code. He replied he had done that many times. Suprisingly, the following week, he talked about that for 15 minutes during a homily on dress code.

After few months, nothing had changed. So, I knew which parish I should belong to.

Personally, I don’t approach anyone; I come to those who will be in charge of doing what they suppose to do.
 
Cat said:
In the past week, there have been several threads about what is “correct” and “reverent” at Mass.

A partial list of the topics includes “handclapping,” “cuddling,” and “resting an arm on the pew back.” These are just the topics I’ve been involved with.

Let’s assume that a parishioner observes a behavior like this during Mass, and they are convinced that it is distracting, irreverent, incorrect, or a matter of liturgical abuse.

What is the proper procedure for getting this behavior corrected/eliminated from the Mass?

Should the observer go to their priest? The usher? Or should they go directly to the parishioner who is performing the improper behavior/gesture, etc. and tell them to please discontinue their behavior in the future?

Or is there some other “procedure” that should be followed?

I’ve never noticed anything offensive, but then, I’m a convert, so to me, all Catholics, even the charismatic ones, look inhibited and super-reverent during Mass. I guess I don’t have the proper “frame of reference” to spot bad Mass behaviors.

It seems to me that something like this could really be a can of worms. I guess I would rather not say anything, just “offer it up,” rather than take a chance on offending someone so badly that they leave the parish in tears and either attend another parish or quit the Catholic Church entirely. I wouldn’t want someone else’s soul on my head just because I didn’t want them to chew gum or rub their husband’s back. But that’s JMO.

One more thing. Is this correct “procedure” written up anywhere, e.g., in the Catechism?

Thanks!
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No one is forced out of the Church. If they leave–it is out of their own free will. Now using your same logic—we should never teach that what constitutes a sinful act–for it may offend someone–to where they leave the Church. Many leave the Church --since they do find our teachings to difficult to live by—for example artificial birth control. To some it is easier to find some protestant denomination that that better fits their way of life. Should we then not put forth what the Church teaches — for fear someone may leave the Church.
 
I think this is a reasonable question. What is the correct way to address what one perceives to be improper conduct or whatever during Mass? I admit I opened the “cuddling” can of worms. I think whenever one discusses what have been called “trivial” matters we should start with some agreement on common ground. I think it is particularly frustrating when people dismiss other people by saying, “These people are just being ridiculous. God doesn’t care about that! Why don’t they just mind their own business and focus on Mass?” Here are some common points:

1.) I think it would be fair to say EVERYONE agrees there is behavior that is appropriate and is not appropriate for Mass. No other qualifications as to what that is just that acceptable and unacceptable behavior exists.

2.) What is and is not acceptable at Mass CHANGES OVER TIME. Certain behaviors become acceptable while other become unacceptable. If the early Christians watched our celebrations they would condemn some of our practices AND vice versa.

3.) If someone questions or believes that some behavior is unacceptable it is OK to ask about it and debate your point. Such debate is not unimportant just because other “bigger” issues out there exist. “Why worry about blank because people are starving in China or being slaughtered in Dafur?” That being said, a reality check is sometimes appropriate and/or necessary.

Maybe some other rules of engagement should be outlined so discussions such as these can be more fruitful and charitable. People are quick to alienate others. Let’s seek to find common ground so as to find a common solution.

Another thought- certain things aren’t outlined in the Catechism because not every matter of faith is described in painstaking detail in the CCC. There isn’t a complete list of rules to follow so every now and then we have to remind, refresh, and revise (on occasion) what certain rules are.

In Christ’s Peace,

StatCrux
 
Walking_Home said:
No one is forced out of the Church. If they leave–it is out of their own free will. Now using your same logic—we should never teach that what constitutes a sinful act–for it may offend someone–to where they leave the Church. Many leave the Church --since they do find our teachings to difficult to live by—for example artificial birth control. To some it is easier to find some protestant denomination that that better fits their way of life. Should we then not put forth what the Church teaches — for fear someone may leave the Church.
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Are you really equating the sin of ABC with putting ones arm on the back of the pew? Do you not know the difference between carelessness, laziness and mortal sin?
 
Indyann said:
Are you really equating the sin of ABC with putting ones arm on the back of the pew? Do you not know the difference between carelessness, laziness and mortal sin?
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The sin no–not anywhere close. It is the idea that nothing can be said for fear of offending someone–because they may leave the Church. Our Lord Christ offended many by his words–that they walked away from him. Are we going to charge the souls that walked away to our Lord Christ’s head.
 
Walking_Home, I appreciate your willingness to speak with me. (BTW, I am a woman, not a man. In the clapping thread, I think it was you who called me a “he.” Far from it!)

Walking_Home, there is a huge difference between speaking out against artificial birth control and speaking out against “hand-clapping” or cuddling or chatting before Mass.

The Catechism makes it crystal clear that ABC is a grave sin, an intrinsically evil act. The Church must speak out against it, and Christians must speak out against it. It doesn’t matter if someone is “hurt” by the rebuke. We must condemn sin.

But hand-clapping, or cuddling, or chatting before Mass–I don’t think the Catechism talks about these actions specifically, right? So it’s a matter of personal preference, right?

I don’t want my personal preference to be a “stumbling block” to someone else.

I’m sure you’re familiar with that term, “stumbling block,” but for those who aren’t, please read I Corinthians 8-10 (three chapters).

I Corinthians 8: 11 is especially convicting: “For through your knowledge he who is weak is ruined, the brother for whose sake Christ died.”

Ouch. What a terrible thought–ruining a weaker brother.

To me, this verse means that I shouldn’t take a chance on hurting a weaker brother by telling him the “right” way to do things. I should always be concerned for his soul, not my preference or my perception of what is “right.” MY personal preference doesn’t matter at all compared with the soul of someone else! In fact, the Lord said that true love is to die for a brother.

If the Catechism has not called it sin or improper, then what right do I have to call something sin or improper?

Another convicting verse is I Corinthians 9: 22: “To the weak, I became weak, that I might win the weak; I have become all thngs to all men, that I may by all means save some.”

To me, this verse means that things like hand-clapping, chatting, etc. are OK if they are done with the motive of winning our Protestant and other non-Catholic human beings to the Lord Jesus Christ and His Church. These actions are not inherently evil. Hand-clapping is actually mentioned many times in the Scriptures, and showing love to our fellow man is something that is commanded by Jesus our Lord. (Chatting with a parishioner or a visitor could be a way of showing love for them.)

Walking_Home, I respectfully disagree that people are not forced to leave a church. My husband and I were “ousted” from our Evangelical Free Church. We were told to get out.

Also, people can be hated and criticized by their fellow church members/parishioners, to the point where they just can’t take it anymore. IMO, these people are “forced” to leave their church, and the people who hate and criticize them are culpable for their unloving actions.

**Many Christians are weak in their faith, and if someone gives them a “wound” by criticizing a behavior that is not specifically defined by the Catechism or the Bible as a “sin,” then sometimes these wounded, weak people just don’t have the strength to keep coming back to church. **

We are supposed to bear one another’s burdens and help build each other up in Christ. Is rebuking someone for a questionable behavior (that may not even be a sin) a good way to build them up? Again, I refer to I Corinthians. St. Paul seems to say that our highest goal should be to win and keep souls to the Lord and His Church, not correct bad behaviors.

I personally think that the priest is in the best position to speak with the entire congregation about bad Mass behaviors. But I’m not sure if this is the “correct procedure” or just my personal preference. That’s why I started this thread.

The other thing that I firmly believe is that the Holy Spirit will convict people of their “bad” Mass behavior. All we need to do is pray for our brother or sister who is doing the distracting or irreverent behavior, and then leave it in the loving Hands of Jesus. We can trust Him to act. I suppose it’s possible that He might work through US to correct someone! But I would tend to trust the priest rather than myself to correct “bad” Mass behaviors!
 
Cat said:
Walking_Home, I appreciate your willingness to speak with me. (BTW, I am a woman, not a man. In the clapping thread, I think it was you who called me a “he.” Far from it!)

Walking_Home, there is a huge difference between speaking out against artificial birth control and speaking out against “hand-clapping” or cuddling or chatting before Mass.

The Catechism makes it crystal clear that ABC is a grave sin, an intrinsically evil act. The Church must speak out against it, and Christians must speak out against it. It doesn’t matter if someone is “hurt” by the rebuke. We must condemn sin.

But hand-clapping, or cuddling, or chatting before Mass–I don’t think the Catechism talks about these actions specifically, right? So it’s a matter of personal preference, right?

I don’t want my personal preference to be a “stumbling block” to someone else.

I’m sure you’re familiar with that term, “stumbling block,” but for those who aren’t, please read I Corinthians 8-10 (three chapters).

I Corinthians 8: 11 is especially convicting: “For through your knowledge he who is weak is ruined, the brother for whose sake Christ died.”

Ouch. What a terrible thought–ruining a weaker brother.

To me, this verse means that I shouldn’t take a chance on hurting a weaker brother by telling him the “right” way to do things. I should always be concerned for his soul, not my preference or my perception of what is “right.” MY personal preference doesn’t matter at all compared with the soul of someone else! In fact, the Lord said that true love is to die for a brother.

If the Catechism has not called it sin or improper, then what right do I have to call something sin or improper?

Another convicting verse is I Corinthians 9: 22: “To the weak, I became weak, that I might win the weak; I have become all tings to all men, that I may by all means save some.”

To me, this verse means that things like hand-clapping, chatting, etc. are OK if they are done with the motive of winning our Protestant and other non-Catholic human beings to the Lord Jesus Christ and His Church. These actions are not inherently evil. Hand-clapping is actually mentioned many times in the Scriptures, and showing love to our fellow man is something that is commanded by Jesus our Lord. (Chatting with a parishioner or a visitor could be a way of showing love for them.)

Walking_Home, I respectfully disagree that people are not forced to leave a church. My husband and I were “ousted” from our Evangelical Free Church. We were told to get out.

Also, people can be hated and criticized by their fellow church members/parishioners, to the point where they just can’t take it anymore. IMO, these people are “forced” to leave their church, and the people who hate and criticize them are culpable for their unloving actions.

**Many Christians are weak in their faith, and if someone gives them a “wound” by criticizing a behavior that is not specifically defined by the Catechism or the Bible as a “sin,” then sometimes these wounded, weak people just don’t have the strength to keep coming back to church. **

We are supposed to bear one another’s burdens and help build each other up in Christ. Is rebuking someone for a questionable behavior (that may not even be a sin) a good way to build them up? Again, I refer to I Corinthians. St. Paul seems to say that our highest goal should be to win and keep souls to the Lord and His Church, not correct bad behaviors.

I personally think that the priest is in the best position to speak with the entire congregation about bad Mass behaviors. But I’m not sure if this is the “correct procedure” or just my personal preference. That’s why I started this thread.

The other thing that I firmly believe is that the Holy Spirit will convict people of their “bad” Mass behavior. All we need to do is pray for our brother or sister who is doing the distracting or irreverent behavior, and then leave it in the loving Hands of Jesus. We can trust Him to act. I suppose it’s possible that He might work through US to correct someone! But I would tend to trust the priest rather than myself to correct “bad” Mass behaviors!
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Yes I know there is a difference—I clarified in post 6.

We are our brothers keeper–and as such we are also responsible to help them and help correct when necessary. It would be irresponsible and uncharitable of us to do nothing. I would not want the Holy Spirit to convict someone—who in someway I could have helped —yet was convicted because I did nothing.
 
Perhaps the problem is concerning who has the authority to correct?

I suppose you could say something, but should it be said to someone in authority or the person who is offending?

There must be some sort of balance. And some distinction made between a serious offence and something inappropriate or annoying.

Lux
 
I guess it could be easy to “wash our hands of it” by passing the buck as they say. I mean once we wash our hands of the problem --we can turn our heads —even if the “person of authority” fails in his responsibility.
 
If everything that is not written down (I always think that common sense come into play with most people that were raised with moral values) was ok to do then even the Catholic Church would become a free for all.

Manners and courtesy toward others should make people remember they are not alone in Church or anywhere in public. I am pretty sure that spitting on the floor is not mentioned yet we all know it is not proper behavior.

Please, thank you, excuse me and many other things are no longer expected of people in any public situation.
 
water said:
When I first moved to Austin, TX, I was going to 2 different parishes at the same time to have some experiences about them. One of them, people dress up whichever way they watned; the other, priest would ask them to leave the mass and go home change.

After few months attending, I wrote an e-amail to the priest and ask him to say something about dress-code. He replied he had done that many times. Suprisingly, the following week, he talked about that for 15 minutes during a homily on dress code.

After few months, nothing had changed. So, I knew which parish I should belong to.

Personally, I don’t approach anyone; I come to those who will be in charge of doing what they suppose to do.
Click to expand...
Oh MY! And what if by doing that he caused them to miss their Sunday obligation? That to me would be much more serious than a casual dressed (or even provocatively dressed) person attending Mass. Truly, if someone’s clothes are that offensive to the priest, than he should provide t-shirts or robes for them to wear. But even that is a bit much! How did he do this sending home that you know about it? Was it public? I just can’t get over this!
 
To the OP, I personally think the correct procedure would be to “offer it up”. However, if the behavior was truly distracting, dangerous, or immoral (the making out example), than my first response would probably be to ask them to stop myself. I assume that any behavior that distracting has to be being done close enough to me that I could whisper. But really anything that awful, I would hope the usher would notice and handle it. If it continued for awhile (same people, same behavior) and it didn’t appear that anything was done, I would tell the priest. I wouldn’t insist on a public chastisement or to know the outcome of the discussion (or even to know that the discussion took place). Finally, it might behoove me to sit somewhere else in the congregation or attend a different Mass time.
 
Walking_Home said:
I guess it could be easy to “wash our hands of it” by passing the buck as they say. I mean once we wash our hands of the problem --we can turn our heads —even if the “person of authority” fails in his responsibility.
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So it would be up to each parishioner to personally rebuke those who are not behaving properly?
 
Sr_Sally said:
To the OP, I personally think the correct procedure would be to “offer it up”. However, if the behavior was truly distracting, dangerous, or immoral (the making out example), than my first response would probably be to ask them to stop myself. I assume that any behavior that distracting has to be being done close enough to me that I could whisper. But really anything that awful, I would hope the usher would notice and handle it. If it continued for awhile (same people, same behavior) and it didn’t appear that anything was done, I would tell the priest. I wouldn’t insist on a public chastisement or to know the outcome of the discussion (or even to know that the discussion took place). Finally, it might behoove me to sit somewhere else in the congregation or attend a different Mass time.
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I like the highlighted suggestion! It seems sensible and kind to me. It seems like a course of action that is truly looking out for the best interests of others, not just yourself. Even if you can’t go to a different Mass, you could sit in a different pew.

I have a question about the ushers, though. My husband serves as an usher in our parish. Often he and the one other usher really have to scramble to perform all their duties (seating, offering, Communion, etc.) for the large congregation. They will try to recruit a few people out of the congregation to help, but many of these men are there with their families and need to stay with them to help with the kids.

Sometimes they end up helping out with “emergencies”–a young lady will come into the sanctuary and tell them that she can’t get her car started (after the Mass preceding). Or there will be a medical emergency–for a while there last year, it seemed that every week, someone fainted or had chest pains! And often, a person will have problems with a baby, and the usher will quietly ask, “Would you like to take him into our cry room for a few minutes?”

So I guess I have a little bit of a hard time with the idea of them also serving as behavior monitors along with all their other responsibilities. They are certainly on the lookout for disruptive behavior (it has happened that certain mentally-disabled street people in our city drop into Mass and become extremely unruly and obscene).

But is it really realistic to ask them to watch out for cuddling, toe-tapping, and other behavior that only some people find distracting, but most people don’t even notice?I guess I would say “no.”

Someone a few weeks ago posted an example where a woman kept annoying the family sitting in the pew in front of her. I believe the usher was called over to help eject the woman. But to me, this falls under the “disruptive” behavior, not the “distracting” behavior."

Perhaps other churches have more ushers than we do and it would be more realistic.

I asked my husband about this question tonight, and he said it would be best to go to the priest before saying anything to anyone. The priest would then have the opportunity to either say, “Thanks, I’ll bring it up in a future Mass or write it up for the Church bulleting,” OR…the priest can look you in the eye and say, “There’s nothing wrong with that behavior. YOU are the one who needs to stop criticizing others and pay attention to the Mass, not the people around you.”

Hmmm…has anyone ever had a priest say that to them? Ouch!
 
Sr_Sally said:
Oh MY! And what if by doing that he caused them to miss their Sunday obligation? That to me would be much more serious than a casual dressed (or even provocatively dressed) person attending Mass. Truly, if someone’s clothes are that offensive to the priest, than he should provide t-shirts or robes for them to wear. But even that is a bit much! How did he do this sending home that you know about it? Was it public? I just can’t get over this!
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yes, the priest sent a girl who came along with their family home! A lesson to the parents. No, he didn’t do that in front the whole church, it was before mass time; it was told in a private meeting.

We are a big parish, there are 6 masses on Sunday and each mass nearly 1,200 to 1,300 people attend. We hardly see anyone addressing offensive at our parish.
 
Cat said:
It seems to me that something like this could really be a can of worms. I guess I would rather not say anything, just “offer it up,” rather than take a chance on offending someone so badly that they leave the parish in tears and either attend another parish or quit the Catholic Church entirely. I wouldn’t want someone else’s soul on my head just because I didn’t want them to chew gum or rub their husband’s back. But that’s JMO.

Thanks!
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What about the parishioner who leaves the church in tears almost every Sunday because of the complete lack of reverence that is shown to Jesus during the Mass? What do we say to those who struggle to return to the Mass that they feel is so lacking in holiness that it is causing them to lose their faith? How do we react to them when we see them with tears before the Blessed Sacrament trying to pray while the social get together after the Mass is roaring all around them?

Do we disregard them because they don’t understand that everyone else is acting the way they are because they believe they see Jesus in each other instead of at the Sacrifice? That Jesus is present in the community of believers and that’s all that should matter? Is this person not worthy of any consideration?
 
paramedicgirl said:
What about the parishioner who leaves the church in tears almost every Sunday because of the complete lack of reverence that is shown to Jesus during the Mass? What do we say to those who struggle to return to the Mass that they feel is so lacking in holiness that it is causing them to lose their faith? How do we react to them when we see them with tears before the Blessed Sacrament trying to pray while the social get together after the Mass is roaring all around them?

Do we disregard them because they don’t understand that everyone else is acting the way they are because they believe they see Jesus in each other instead of at the Sacrifice? That Jesus is present in the community of believers and that’s all that should matter? Is this person not worthy of any consideration?
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Howdy paramedicgirl,

There is a woman who arrives at Adoration every Friday just about 2:30 or so. I’d like to share with you the reverence she displays. (It’s because I’m working in the office until this office that I have been blessed to bear witness.)

She walks to the Church from her neighborhood home. She is always dressed in a dress with sequence on it or ruffles at the bottom of the skirt or with a blazer and skirt. I’ve never seen her in pants. She is an elderly woman about the age of 70 or so. She is small in stature and is quick to offer you a very genuine smile. She seldom speaks to anyone in church and brings only a simple looking rosary with her at all times.

From the moment her feet touch the grounds of the Church, she drops to her knees. (Oh, my Jesus…) She then proceeds to continue a distance of 40 yards on her knees.

She opens the heavy doors of the Church on her knees. She enters the Church on her knees. She completes all the Stations of the Cross on her knees. She sits for Adoration for an hour or so and kneels for the rest on the cement floor. She foregoes use of the kneeler. She leaves after pausing momentarily at every Station of the Cross once more. She then leaves for her home nearby—the same way she entered the Church. ❤️ :gopray:

Sadly, the possibility exists that someone’s first reaction to this woman’s procedure of doing things could be “over the top.”

If I could muster an ounce of her apparent humility and reverence…my stay in purgatory would surely be lessened.
 
I generally never say anything. I have no position in the Church to be saying anything, and I also feel that my frame of reference is skewed. I grew up in a church where we really did have the Liturgy police, and they would notice if something wasn’t done the “right” way. I like to think I don’t watch people too much (some things that are brough up on this forum I really haven’t noticed, unless it happened in my direct vicinity). But it was still ingrained in me to behave “properly” so that transferred over into what I do now. If I felt something was a genuine ABUSE, then I would say something. There are some things (like kids playing gameboy with their parents not attempting to correct it, or people talking on their cell phones on the way up to receiving Communion) that I’m not afraid to say are just plain rude and shouldn’t be happening. But thankfully, that’s only been a small handful of incidents for me, and definitely NOT how the majority of Catholics that I’ve seen behave during Mass.
 
I have, over the years, “shushed” a few groups of kids (not my own) sitting without an adult who got a little loud/rowdy during mass, and I’ve asked a handful of people who were talking loudly if they could keep their conversation down. Everyone’s always complied, and I don’t think anyone’s ever gotten their feelings hurt, as I’m always polite and they recognized my request as reasonable. That’s about it.

I leave the rest up to the priest, because it’s his job to correct his parishioners. I used to attend a TLM parish, and we had an obnoxious little group of people who took it upon themselves to correct others’ behavior and dress. In fact, the second time we attended there someone jumped down my 15 y/o son’s throat after mass because he didn’t genuflect when leaving his pew. He wasn’t even Catholic at the time and was sorting through his belief in the Real Presence … it would have been wrong for him to genuflect but some busybody decided that they needed to correct him. Geesh. I’m sure that* they* thought they were doing the “right thing” - but they didn’t know my son and they didn’t know why he didn’t genuflect.

Our priest finally made an announcement from the pulpit one day that he was responsible for shepherding the souls in his parish, and that if there was any correcting that needed to be done that he would do it.

It’s a shame when some priests are neglectful or lousy shepherds, but it’s not our place to do his job. We need to worry about ourselves, and everything else will follow.
 
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