Correct time to sit after communion in the US?

[zab]

The official 2002 text of the universal GIRM - that is, the one without adaptations - said that the posture from Consecration until the end of Mass was standing. The dubium, as posted earlier, doesn’t ask about the US, it asks “Does the official text forbid kneeling upon return from Communion?” If it did, it would apply to the entire world, not just the US. . The response to the dubium, NO.

Well, I’m confused. If the official 2002 text of the universal G.I.R.M. said that the posture from Consecration until the end of Mass was standing, doesn’t Cardinal Arinze’s statement in the Adoremus bulletin conflict with that? "There is no rule from Rome that everybody must stand during Holy Communion. There is no such rule from Rome. "

 

[zab]

Well, I’m confused. If the official 2002 text of the universal G.I.R.M. said that the posture from Consecration until the end of Mass was standing, doesn’t Cardinal Arinze’s statement in the Adoremus bulletin conflict with that? "There is no rule from Rome that everybody must stand during Holy Communion. There is no such rule from Rome. "

I meant to write “…seem to conflict with that?”. We have enough difficulty on these boards understanding exactly what each other is saying and the manner in which they say it (write it). So it is not so difficult to understand that when Cardinal Arinze speaks “off the cuff” we could misinterpret some of what he is trying to say. That is why we should leave it to those in authority to interpret laws, rubrics etc.

 

[otjm]

The official 2002 text of the universal GIRM - that is, the one without adaptations - said that the posture from Consecration until the end of Mass was standing. The dubium, as posted earlier, doesn’t ask about the US, it asks “Does the official text forbid kneeling upon return from Communion?” If it did, it would apply to the entire world, not just the US. . The response to the dubium, NO.

My recollection of the dubium (and it has been a few years, and I don’t have it in front of me) was that it was prefaced with the fact that in the US, it had been traditional to kneel after receiving. It would seem, as a matter of protocol as to how dubiums are handled by Rome, and the fact that there are differences (as noted above, from the norm to the US position of kneeling longer after the Consecration) that it may have only been an answer to the US.

I don’t know, and your answer may be correct. Because there is a norm on a matter, a relaxation of the norm is not universal, but regional. That would differ, should a dubium be treated as regional also.

 

[ProVobis]

Well, I’m confused. If the official 2002 text of the universal G.I.R.M. said that the posture from Consecration until the end of Mass was standing, doesn’t Cardinal Arinze’s statement in the Adoremus bulletin conflict with that? "There is no rule from Rome that everybody must stand during Holy Communion. There is no such rule from Rome. "

The official 2002 text is in Latin. It’s been known to happen that it is translated in different ways. I’ll take Cardinal Arinze’s word for what the Latin texts really mean in English.

 

[pnewton]

The official 2002 text is in Latin. It’s been known to happen that it is translated in different ways. I’ll take Cardinal Arinze’s word for what the Latin texts really mean in English.

There may also be a simple mistake. I just scanned the whole of the GIRM for the word “standing” and could not find any reference to standing after communion. I looked here.

dol-in.org/documents/GIRM-2011.pdf

 

[zab]

There may also be a simple mistake. I just scanned the whole of the GIRM for the word “standing” and could not find any reference to standing after communion. I looked here.

dol-in.org/documents/GIRM-2011.pdf

I know it is not always easy to keep up with the discussion but we were commenting on Phemie’s post #56 “The official 2002 text of the universal GIRM - that is, the one without adaptations - said that the posture from Consecration until the end of Mass was standing. …”
http://www.vatican.va/roman_curia/c...n.html#II._THE_DIFFERENT_ELEMENTS_OF_THE_MASS

Chapter II, No. II, 43

 

[pnewton]

I think the dioceses knows that too and have ensured that policy is not worded in a way that sounds demanding. Now our discussion seems to be whether or not the bishop has the authority at all to promote a posture when there is no specification one way or the other in the G.I.R.M.

I do not believe bishops are perfect, but it is not our job to correct them. Yet their judgment should prevail, as they are the ones with authority to determine whey they are encouraging a uniformity in the Mass and when they are prescribing a new posture outside of the GIRM. When the go to far, it us up to the Pope to address it, like he did when some were allowing communion to be given only to those who stand, and denying to those who knelt. In this, if someone is in a parish really pushes the standing too much, they can always kneel or sit it they want.

That is why we should leave it to those in authority to interpret laws, rubrics etc.

Yes, but then we also need to leave it to each individual to figure out what they are going to do on any given day, at their Mass, in their parish. The uniformity of Catholicism has always been balanced by the respect for the individual; the communal, and the personal.

 

[pnewton]

I know it is not always easy to keep up with the discussion but we were commenting on Phemie’s post #56 “The official 2002 text of the universal GIRM - that is, the one without adaptations - said that the posture from Consecration until the end of Mass was standing. …”
http://www.vatican.va/roman_curia/c...n.html#II._THE_DIFFERENT_ELEMENTS_OF_THE_MASS

Chapter II, No. II, 43

Thank you so much. I could not find it by searching.

Well, this place in the GIRM mentions all three postures.
43. The faithful should stand from the beginning of the Entrance Chant, or while the Priest approaches the altar, until the end of the Collect; for the Alleluia Chant before the Gospel; while the Gospel itself is proclaimed; during the Profession of Faith and the Universal Prayer; and from the invitation, Orate, fratres (Pray, brethren), before the Prayer over the Offerings until the end of Mass**, except at the places indicated here below.
**
The faithful should sit, on the other hand, during the readings before the Gospel and the Responsorial Psalm and for the Homily and during the Preparation of the Gifts at the Offertory; and, if appropriate**, they may sit or kneel during the period of sacred silence after Communion.
**

I also note, that regardless of what the GIRM says, I have never once been in a parish that stands for the announcements. I guess it is common some places.

 

[zab]

Thank you so much. I could not find it by searching.

Well, this place in the GIRM mentions all three postures.
43. The faithful should stand from the beginning of the Entrance Chant, or while the Priest approaches the altar, until the end of the Collect; for the Alleluia Chant before the Gospel; while the Gospel itself is proclaimed; during the Profession of Faith and the Universal Prayer; and from the invitation, Orate, fratres (Pray, brethren), before the Prayer over the Offerings until the end of MassB], except at the places indicated here below.

The faithful should sit, on the other hand, during the readings before the Gospel and the Responsorial Psalm and for the Homily and during the Preparation of the Gifts at the Offertory; and, if appropriate**, they may sit or kneel during the period of sacred silence after Communion.
**
and,
In the dioceses of the United States of America, they should kneel beginning after the singing or recitation of the Sanctus until after the Amen of the Eucharistic Prayer, except when prevented on occasion by reasons of health, lack of space, the large number of people present, or some other good reason. Those who do not kneel ought to make a profound bow when the priest genuflects after the consecration. The faithful kneel after the Agnus Dei unless the diocesan Bishop determines otherwise.[53]
**With a view to a uniformity in gestures and postures during one and the same celebration, the faithful should follow the directions which the deacon, lay minister, or priest gives according to whatever is indicated in the Missal.
**

vatican.va/roman_curia/congregations/ccdds/documents/rc_con_ccdds_doc_20030317_ordinamento-messale_en.html#II._THE_DIFFERENT_ELEMENTS_OF_THE_MASS

 

[zab]

The official 2002 text is in Latin. It’s been known to happen that it is translated in different ways. I’ll take Cardinal Arinze’s word for what the Latin texts really mean in English.

The English translation is posted on the Vatican website: vatican.va/roman_curia/congregations/ccdds/documents/rc_con_ccdds_doc_20030317_ordinamento-messale_en.html#II._THE_DIFFERENT_ELEMENTS_OF_THE_MASS

Cardinal Arinze said that the posture was not a rule from Rome and yet we see this information listed in the G.I.R.M. under “movements and posture”. So now we need to understand what he meant by “There is no rule from Rome …” when it states in the G.I.R.M. that

• 1. The faithful should stand from the beginning of the Entrance chant, or while the priest approaches the altar, until the end of the collect; for the Alleluia chant before the Gospel; while the Gospel itself is proclaimed; during the Profession of Faith and the Prayer of the Faithful; from the invitation, Orate, fratres (Pray, brethren), before the prayer over the offerings until the end of Mass, except at the places indicated below.*
     I respect Cardinal Arinze too and think that I understand what he is trying to say. And some of what I think I understand may be different from what you think that you understand .

 

[zab]

Anyway, I think we are just going in circles now and possibly have diverted from the simple question of the OP so I’m going to bow out of this conversation.

 

[ProVobis]

For the record, the official IGMR Latin texts give this:

1. Fideles stent ab initio cantus ad introitum, vel dum sacerdos accedit ad altare, usque ad collectam inclusive; ad cantum Allelúia ante Evangelium; dum ipsum Evangelium proclamatur; dum professio fidei et oratio universalis fiunt; necnon ab invitatorio Oráte fratres ante orationem super oblata usque ad finem Missae, praeter ea quae infra dicuntur.

Sedeant autem dum proferuntur lectiones ante Evangelium et psalmus responsorius; ad homiliam et dum fit praeparatio donorum ad offertorium; atque, pro opportunitate, dum sacrum silentium post Communionem servatur.

Genuflectant vero, nisi valetudinis causa, vel ob angustiam loci vel frequentiorem numerum adstantium aliasve rationabiles causas impediantur, ad consecrationem. Hi vero qui non genuflectunt ad consecrationem, inclinationem profundam peragant dum sacerdos genuflectit post consecrationem.

Est tamen Conferentiae Episcoporum, gestus et corporis habitus in Ordine Missae descriptos ingenio et rationabilibus populorum traditionibus ad normam iuris aptare.54 Attendendum tamen erit, ut sensui et indoli cuiusque partis celebrationis respondeant. Ubi mos est, populum ab acclamatione Sanctus expleta usque ad finem Precis eucharisticae genuflexum manere, hic laudabiliter retinetur.

Ad uniformitatem in gestibus et corporis habitibus in una eadem celebratione obtinendam, fideles monitionibus obtemperent, quas diaconus, vel minister laicus, vel sacerdos durante celebratione proferunt, iuxta ea quae in libris liturgicis statuuntur.

The USCCB adapted this to:

1. The faithful should stand from the beginning of the Entrance Chant, or while the Priest approaches the altar, until the end of the Collect; for the Alleluia Chant before the Gospel; while the Gospel itself is proclaimed; during the Profession of Faith and the Universal Prayer; and from the invitation, Orate, fratres (Pray, brethren), before the Prayer over the Offerings until the end of Mass, except at the places indicated here below.

The faithful should sit, on the other hand, during the readings before the Gospel and the Responsorial Psalm and for the Homily and during the Preparation of the Gifts at the Offertory; and, if appropriate, they may sit or kneel during the period of sacred silence after Communion.

In the Dioceses of the United States of America, they should kneel beginning after the singing or recitation of the Sanctus (Holy, Holy, Holy) until after the Amen of the Eucharistic Prayer, except when prevented on occasion by ill health, or for reasons of lack of space, of the large number of people present, or for another reasonable cause. However, those who do not kneel ought to make a profound bow when the Priest genuflects after the Consecration. The faithful kneel after the Agnus Dei (Lamb of God) unless the Diocesan Bishop determines otherwise.[53]

For the sake of uniformity in gestures and bodily postures during one and the same celebration, the faithful should follow the instructions which the Deacon, a lay minister, or the Priest gives, according to what is laid down in the Missal.

As Adoremus notes, a sentence in the un-adapted IGMR reads: “Where it is the custom that the people remain kneeling from the end of the Sanctus until the end of the Eucharistic Prayer, and before Communion when the priest says Ecce Agnus Dei, this is laudably retained”.

adoremus.org/0303IGMR_Adapt.html#anchor1614574

.

 

[ProVobis]

Anyway, I think we are just going in circles now and possibly have diverted from the simple question of the OP so I’m going to bow out of this conversation.

I will join you. All this mixing and matching of the proper Latin and English texts has exhausted me.

 

[pnewton]

**With a view to a uniformity in gestures and postures during one and the same celebration, the faithful should follow the directions which the deacon, lay minister, or priest gives according to whatever is indicated in the Missal.
**

Yes. Follow the directions that are given according to what is in the missal. This issue is not in the missal.

I believe that statement is more of a “heads up” to the try and stay together. I can relate to this problem a little. When we switched up the Mass parts and went to Jubilate Dei, it really threw a curve in the ability of the parish to keep up with when to kneel and stand. I had to start “directing” that part, at least for a few weeks because of the reliance everyone had on verbal clues in the music.

I might start sitting the whole time.

 

[Phemie]

Thank you so much. I could not find it by searching.

Well, this place in the GIRM mentions all three postures.
43. The faithful should stand from the beginning of the Entrance Chant, or while the Priest approaches the altar, until the end of the Collect; for the Alleluia Chant before the Gospel; while the Gospel itself is proclaimed; during the Profession of Faith and the Universal Prayer; and from the invitation, Orate, fratres (Pray, brethren), before the Prayer over the Offerings until the end of Mass**, except at the places indicated here below.
**
The faithful should sit, on the other hand, during the readings before the Gospel and the Responsorial Psalm and for the Homily and during the Preparation of the Gifts at the Offertory; and, if appropriate**, they may sit or kneel during the period of sacred silence after Communion.**

I also note, that regardless of what the GIRM says, I have never once been in a parish that stands for the announcements. I guess it is common some places.

Note that when the dubium was sent to Rome, the part in blue was not in the GIRM. That was added when the GIRM was revised prior to the promulgation of the English Roman Missal.

 

[pnewton]

Note that when the dubium was sent to Rome, the part in blue was not in the GIRM. That was added when the GIRM was revised prior to the promulgation of the English Roman Missal.

I would like to add that the video I linked earlier is over a decade old. I know things can change with time. I was more interested in the principle he was given than the particulars. Without a doubt our interior disposition is usually more of a problem than our posture.

 

[MissRose73]

One parish I go to, the custom is to be seated after kneeling when the Blessed Sacrament is placed back in the tabernacle after communion then stand for the post Communion prayer. Many places, the people will simply going from kneeling to standing for the post Communion prayer. The few churches I go to that do not have pews with kneelers, the people sit down after reception of Communion then stand for the post Communion prayer although there may be a few who will kneel on the floor then stand with rest of congregation.

 

[SMHW]

It certainly is not uniform within the whole US. It varies by diocese. Heck where I live it varies by parish.

Some places don’t kneel for communion at all.

Personally, I kneel before my Lord while he is exposed.

Most people I observe use when the priest sits as thier guide, which depending on the priests and his assistants varies.

I think there are good reasons why the Church does not have rigid instruction on the position the people are to assume during/following the reception of communion.

As many have noted, there is much variety between dioceses, parishes, and even between Masses at the same parish. The location of the tabernacle, the local prescribed position people take after receiving, and the number of clergy present can cause some customs to make more or less sense.

That is probably why so many parishes just take their cue from whatever the priest does. Unless that doesn’t make sense for a given parish.

 

[zab]

I think there are good reasons why the Church does not have rigid instruction on the position the people are to assume** during/following **the reception of communion.

As many have noted, there is much variety between dioceses, parishes, and even between Masses at the same parish. The location of the tabernacle, the local prescribed position people take after receiving, and the number of clergy present can cause some customs to make more or less sense.

That is probably why so many parishes just take their cue from whatever the priest does. Unless that doesn’t make sense for a given parish.

Oh, but the G.I.R.M. does say what the posture is during Communion. The only part that has been in question is when communicant come back from Communion.

 

[SMHW]

Oh, but the G.I.R.M. does say what the posture is during Communion. The only part that has been in question is when communicant come back from Communion.

I agree that the G.I.R.M specifies what to do prior to communion. I brought up the pre-communion posture in order to include the fuzzy situation of people who do not receive communion at all, particularly when the local norm is standing prior to receiving communion and people wish to kneel after receiving. Local convention helps explain how to handle the situation when you’ve got a mixture of people standing and kneeling.