Correct Trinitarian formula?

[John_Lazarus]

The problem with analogies is that they are at best an approximation of what they are trying to explain, and very open to interpretation. You can often make an analogy say something very different than what you intended. In the movie Shrek, Shrek is trying to explain to Donkey that trolls are not shallow, they have layers, so he makes an analogy that “Trolls are like onions,” to which Donkey replies, “You mean they stink and make people cry?”

I mean, people can’t figure out how they get the Caramilk into the Caramilk bar, and yet expect to understand the Trinity?

 

[Eric_Hyom]

The spirit and the greatest commandments linked in this passage,
1 Samuel 18 ( New International Bible )

1 Jonathan became one in spirit with David, and he loved him as himself

.

 

[SteveVH]

This may help some

and similarly from the Baha’i Writings:

"God is pure perfection, and creatures are but imperfections. For God to descend into the conditions of existence would be the greatest of imperfections; on the contrary, His manifestation, His appearance, His rising are like the reflection of the sun in a clear, pure, polished mirror. All the creatures are evident signs of God, like the earthly beings upon all of which the rays of the sun shine. But upon the plains, the mountains, the trees and fruits, only a portion of the light shines, through which they become visible, and are reared, and attain to the object of their existence, while the Perfect Man is in the condition of a clear mirror in which the Sun of Reality becomes visible and manifest with all its qualities and perfections. So the Reality of Christ was a clear and polished mirror of the greatest purity and fineness. The Sun of Reality, the Essence of Divinity, reflected itself in this mirror and manifested its light and heat in it; but from the exaltation of its holiness, and the heaven of its sanctity, theand sublimity, while appearing and becoming manifest in the mirror in beauty and perfection Sun did not descend to dwell and abide in the mirror. No, it continues to subsist in its exaltation.

Now if we say that we have seen the Sun in two mirrors—one the Christ and one the Holy Spirit—that is to say, that we have seen three Suns, one in heaven and the two others on the earth, we speak truly. And if we say that there is one Sun, and it is pure singleness, and has no partner and equal, we again speak truly.

Servant, this is not at all the Christian view of the Trinity or the nature of Christ. Jesus is not simply a reflection of God, but rather God himself who, contrary to Baha’u’llah writings, did descend “into the conditions of existence” and became one of us by assuming human flesh. It is us, his creatures, who reflect the light of God by reflecting the light of Christ when we follow his commandments. Jesus is the one staring into the mirror; he is not the reflection. So this is not helpful when trying to understand the Christian view of the Holy Trinity. Baha’u’llah has an erroneous view of the three Persons of the Trinity.

This is the signification of the Three Persons of the Trinity. If it were otherwise, the foundations of the Religion of God would rest upon an illogical proposition which the mind could never conceive, and how can the mind be forced to believe a thing which it cannot conceive? A thing cannot be grasped by the intelligence except when it is clothed in an intelligible form; otherwise, it is but an effort of the imagination." (Abdu’l-Baha)

Abdu’l-Baha seems to think that we cannot believe in a God whom we cannot grasp. What he is missing is that this knowledge comes from divine revelation, not the human mind. He says that if we cannot grasp something with our intelligence then it is just imagination. This completely discounts faith which goes beyond the imagination; beyond the intellect. I cannot fathom eternity; yet I can believe it. I cannot fathom three Persons in one God; yet I believe it because it has been revealed to us. We do our best, with our finite intellects, to explain the infinite. Because we fall short, and we will always fall short, does not then mean that what we believe is not true simply because our human minds cannot grasp it.

There were two doctors at a dinner party who struck up a conversation. One was an Atheist and one was a Christian. The Atheist was a heart surgeon and made the comment that he had opened up hundreds of human bodies and had never seen a soul. The Christian doctor was a brain surgeon, who replied that he had opened up hundreds of human skulls and had never seen a thought.

 

[Servant19]

Hi Steve, know that Abdu’l-Baha here is referring to the Manifestation of God’s “human” condition.

If read again in this light, it becomes very compatible with Trinitarian thinking.

It does however go against any Trinitarian ideology that may suggest that Jesus’ human condition is one and united with the Father. The Trinity does not imply this does it? For some Christians it does, and this is refuted in Abdu’l-Baha’s Writings above

 

[Servant19]

One other thing Steve. EVERY TIME you read the word God in the Baha’i Writings, replace it with the words “God the Father”, it will assist you with what the pasage is trying to say

God bless

 

[SteveVH]

Hi Steve, know that Abdu’l-Baha here is referring to the Manifestation of God’s “human” condition.

If read again in this light, it becomes very compatible with Trinitarian thinking.

It does however go against any Trinitarian ideology that may suggest that Jesus’ human condition is one and united with the Father. The Trinity does not imply this does it? For some Christians it does, and this is refuted in Abdu’l-Baha’s Writings above

Jesus’ person cannot be separated. He has two natures; human and divine. That is who he is. He will always, from the point if his incarnation forward, have these two natures. And yes, He is one with the Father from eternity. Why would his humanity stop him from being one with the Father? Once again, there is only one God who cannot be divided. In Jesus, there are two natures in one Person which, again, cannot be divided. Jesus did not stop being the second Person of the Trinity when he became man, therefore he has always been one with the Father and the Holy Spirit.

You view Jesus as just one in a long line of manifestations, who is not God, but only a reflection of God. You place the Creator (Jesus) in the place of the created (man). It is this misunderstanding of who Jesus really is that causes the disconnect. Jesus was not created; rather he is the Creator. Jesus is God, the Creator of the universe, who humbled himself to become man, out of love for us. He subjected himself to the human condition and in so doing defeated sin and death by carrying out the will of his Father while in his human state. Because sin entered the world through one man (Adam) it had to be defeated by one man (Jesus). That is why he had to truly become man, human in every way except sin.

I don’t know how to say this more clearly. Jesus was not a manifestation of God. He is God and therefore set apart from all others. Those you consider as manifestations of God, including Baha’u’llah, should be on their knees in worship of Jesus.

Maybe this will help sort things out a little. Do you believe that Jesus is a creature, or is he the Creator?

 

[Servant19]

Jesus’ person cannot be separated. He has two natures; human and divine.

Well, it seems He had three naturs, human (which in itself has two natures, a body and a soul) and Divine, that makes three…

And yes, He is one with the Father from eternity.

Why would He say that the Father is greater than I then? When you say He is one with the father, there is absolutely no room whatsoever for Jesus to say what He did.

Why would his humanity stop him from being one with the Father?

If it wasn’t His humanity He was referring to, then to what was He referring to when He categorically stated that the Father was greater than Him?

Once again, there is only one God who cannot be divided. In Jesus, there are two natures in one Person which, again, cannot be divided. Jesus did not stop being the second Person of the Trinity when he became man, therefore he has always been one with the Father and the Holy Spirit.

He can be the second Person of the Trinity, however He himself clearly saw an element of division. Otherwise He would have said “Look at me and know that you are looking at the Father”…did He ever say that?

You view Jesus as just one in a long line of manifestations, who is not God, but only a reflection of God.

My friend, no, I view Jesus that had a human aspect (body and soul, which was distinct from the Father, and was created in the womb of His mother) and a Divine aspect which is eternal and shares in the substance of God the Father, and is conscious BEFORE it “works” through the human aspect.

The Bab said, “Before I chose the womb of my mother, I discoursed with Muhammad about the future of Islam”

The human (body and soul) aspect was one of a long line of other “human aspects” but the Divine aspect is ONE, ETERNAL and works through the human aspect.

When Jesus said, the Father is greater than I , He was referencing His human aspect, which is distinct from when He said the Father and I are one, which is in reference to His Divine aspect. It is this Divine aspect that also said “I am God” through Baha’u’llah, and also said through Muhammad “There is a relationship that bindeth Me to He, where I am I and He is He, yet and I am He and He is Me”, and also through Krishna “I come to this earth from age to age”

Maybe this will help sort things out a little. Do you believe that Jesus is a creature, or is he the Creator?

To which aspect of Jesus are you referring to?

 

[John_Lazarus]

He can be the second Person of the Trinity, however He himself clearly saw an element of division. Otherwise He would have said “Look at me and know that you are looking at the Father”…did He ever say that?

John 14:8-9:

[8] Philip saith to him: Lord, shew us the Father, and it is enough for us. [9] Jesus saith to him: Have I been so long a time with you; and have you not known me? Philip,** he that seeth me seeth the Father also.** How sayest thou, shew us the Father?

I’ll leave it to my intellectual betters to address the other points. Suffice to say I hold to the Nicene Creed, that He was eternally begotten of the Father, God from God, Light from Light, True God from True God, begotten and not made, and one in being with the Father.

And yes, that makes my head spin. But as Jesus said subsequent to the parable of the rich man (and the “eye of the needle”):

“And Jesus looking on them, saith: With men it is impossible; but not with God: for all things are possible with God.”

(Mark 10:27; see also Matthew 19:26)

 

[SteveVH]

Well, it seems He had three naturs, human (which in itself has two natures, a body and a soul) and Divine, that makes three…

The human being has a spiritual component and a physical component. These two components comprise “human nature”, just as the component of flour and the component of yeast, when united, comprise the nature of a loaf of bread.

Christ had two natures, Human (body and soul) and divine; that nature which is unique only to God.

Why would He say that the Father is greater than I then? When you say He is one with the father, there is absolutely no room whatsoever for Jesus to say what He did.

This is the trap into which one falls when the entirety of Scripture is not taken into account.

We must ask in what way was Jesus referring to the Father being greater? We have verse after verse telling us that the Father and the Son and the Holy Spirit are equal in power and majesty.

The only distinction between the Persons of the Trinity is one of relationship. God is eternally Father in relation to his only Son, who is eternally Son only in relation to his Father. As a Son, Jesus’ relationship to his Father is one of obedience. In that manner, yes the Father is greater than the Son. It is the Father who sent the Son to become man. Yet they share one divine will. In all other senses, the Father, the Son and the Holy Spirit are equal; the Father is wholly God, the Son is wholly God, and the Holy Spirit is wholly God. There is only one God and where one divine Person is, there are the others as well.

If it wasn’t His humanity He was referring to, then to what was He referring to when He categorically stated that the Father was greater than Him?

His relationship as Son to the Father.

He can be the second Person of the Trinity, however He himself clearly saw an element of division. Otherwise He would have said “Look at me and know that you are looking at the Father”…did He ever say that?

Yep.

“If you know me, then you will also know my Father. From now on you do know him and have seen him.” Philip said to him, “Master, show us the Father, and that will be enough for us.” Jesus replied, “Have I been with you for so long a time and you still do not know me, Philip? Whoever has seen me has seen the Father. How can you say, ‘Show us the Father?’ Do you not believe that I am in the Father and the Father is in me? The words that I speak to you I do not speak on my own. The Father who dwells in me is doing his works.” (John 14:7-10)

My friend, no, I view Jesus that had a human aspect (body and soul, which was distinct from the Father, and was created in the womb of His mother) and a Divine aspect which is eternal and shares in the substance of God the Father, and is conscious BEFORE it “works” through the human aspect.

We would agree in a sense, however we would differ in that Jesus was not “created” in Mary’s womb. Jesus is eternal. He voluntarily assumed human flesh and so came into the world as any other human; yet he is still the second Person of the Trinity who has no beginning.

The human (body and soul) aspect was one of a long line of other “human aspects” but the Divine aspect is ONE, ETERNAL and works through the human aspect.

This is one aspect of your faith that I admit I am lacking in understanding. How does this happen? Does God “possess” a human being in one age and another in a subsequent age or does he become incarnate himself, over and over again? Do they have two human parents, as opposed to Jesus who was born of a virgin? Just what is the nature of the various manifestations of God?

To which aspect of Jesus are you referring to?

You asked this question in response to my question as to whether or not you believe that Jesus was the Creator or whether he was the created. I am referring to the Person of Jesus, comprised of both a human and a divine nature. If any aspect of Jesus was created, then he had to have created it himself, for there is no other Creator.

 

[jimkhong]

I think we need to forget about formulas altogether. Not only do each of them fall short, they can lead us in the wrong direction. We are seeking to understand the almighty God, the Creator of the universe who is eternally above us in every way. We are seeking to understand a divine Being who is absolutely unique and for whom we have no analogy on this earth. It is enough to accept divine revelation and believe in three divine persons in one God; Father, Son and Holy Spirit.

I agree we need to forget about analogy to explain the Trinity, and I deal with children where we use anologies a lot. No analogy is perfect and there is where the problem is because it is so easy to misinterpret analogies.

I got into trouble with my parish priest once over the ice-water-steam analogy because God is all three at the same time unlike the ice-water-steam. That is the problem with analogies, you end up qualifying and introducing exceptions to avoid misinterpretations that in the end they become more complicated than they subject they are meant to simplify.

Why can’t we in the modern world with all our advanced technological trappings, for once accept that there is one subject beyond our definition?