Correction to "MUST receive" thread

[Neil_Anthony]

I don’t think mortal sin, the impediment to communion, works that way. Serious sins become mortal upon full reflection and consent and knowledge BEFORE they are committed. For someone, including your conscience, telling you it is a mortal sin ONLY AFTER the fact, doesn’t usually hold. Bottom line is this, a Catholic who takes his faith seriously, knows at all times when he is in the state where he needs to go to confession before he can receive.

I’ve noticed that sometimes I’ve been given the gift of awareness of a sin right in the communion line, or even while kneeling at the communion rail. And yes, it happend more often when I wasn’t taking my faith as seriously, and didn’t pray often.

 

[Pro_Domina]

That is just the most horrible thing I ever heard from a believing Catholic!

I don’t buy it. You did not mean that and just want a reaction from somebody.

But if true, then it means you are argueing just to argue rather than to exchange knowledge about our Church and our God to better serve Him.

When people get depressed in an arguement it means that self-love is being touched. Pull the “me” out and put Him in.

Plus, we are talking about the only book that probably does not contain references to the first person singular.

 

[Pro_Domina]

I’ve noticed that sometimes I’ve been given the gift of awareness of a sin right in the communion line, or even while kneeling at the communion rail. And yes, it happend more often when I wasn’t taking my faith as seriously, and didn’t pray often.

IF YOU DID NOT REALIZE WHEN YOU COMMITED IT, YOU DIDN"T SIN MORTALLY!!!

Another thing is to forget and then remember, which we are talking about when in line already or the rail as mentioned.

 

[ac_claire]

IF YOU DID NOT REALIZE WHEN YOU COMMITED IT, YOU DIDN"T SIN MORTALLY!!!

Another thing is to forget and then remember, which we are talking about when in line already or the rail as mentioned.

Your comment in ALL CAPS up above isn’t necessarily true. You can be aware that something is a venial sin while intentionally committing it, yet commit that sin anyway. And then later realize that the matter of the sin was sufficiently grave to make it a mortal sin.

 

[ProVobis]

Your comment in ALL CAPS up above isn’t necessarily true. You can be aware that something is a venial sin while intentionally committing it, yet commit that sin anyway. And then later realize that the matter of the sin was sufficiently grave to make it a mortal sin.

I’ll agree to an extent. If you stole $100 from the Church thinking it was a venial sin, but someone like an usher or a priest told you it was serious enough to be a mortal sin, you didn’t commit a mortal sin if you returned the money immediately. (Actually you should have returned the money anyway, but I think you see my point.)

 

[Pro_Domina]

Stealing is complicated one. Venial sins accumulate and then it becomes mortal.

Now the thing about mortal sin is that you need to realize that you are comiting a mortal sin. If I believed smoking pot was not a mortal sin, but just wrong, I can’t be told ex post facto it is a mortal sin and then be guilty of a mortal sin. But there are sins that are bad according to Natural Law as well and the sort that we already know are bad even if we are not told, like murder.

 

[ac_claire]

Stealing is complicated one. Venial sins accumulate and then it becomes mortal.

**Now the thing about mortal sin is that you need to realize that you are comiting a mortal sin. **If I believed smoking pot was not a mortal sin, but just wrong, I can’t be told ex post facto it is a mortal sin and then be guilty of a mortal sin. But there are sins that are bad according to Natural Law as well and the sort that we already know are bad even if we are not told, like murder.

No, that’s absolutely incorrect. It is a mortal sin to commit even a venial sin with deliberate and complete consent. Yes there are issues where the matter may not be sufficiently grave to constitute a mortal sin, but that is something that most people shouldn’t put themselves in a position to judge. Your example of stealing $100 from a church certainly constitutes grave matter. The goal should be to not sin, period.

Pro Domina, I’m begging you to please stop coming on here to instruct us in moral theology. Time after time, thread after thread you’re proving you need to study up on it more yourself.

All kinds of impressionable kids and poorly catechised adults read these boards. Wouldn’t you hate for someone to stumble on one of your posts and be infected with a bad seed of doubt or error? You don’t want to be responsible for that.

 

[Verbum_Caro]

It is a mortal sin to commit even a venial sin with deliberate and complete consent.

ac,

Off topic, I know, but I’m scratching my head over this. I’m aware of various ways an objectively venial sin could become mortal, but I’ve not encountered the phrasing you used. Could you explain what you mean, or perhaps start a new thread with this topic? I would be interested in learning more.

Thanks!
VC

 

[Aramis]

AC: Neither canon law nor the CCC agree with you.

Some things are always venial sins.

 

[ac_claire]

ac,

Off topic, I know, but I’m scratching my head over this. I’m aware of various ways an objectively venial sin could become mortal, but I’ve not encountered the phrasing you used. Could you explain what you mean, or perhaps start a new thread with this topic? I would be interested in learning more.

Don’t worry, you’re not off topic. I didn’t explain what I meant very clearly. Really I was responding to Pro Domina’s assertion: “Now the thing about mortal sin is that you need to realize that you are comiting a mortal sin.” Which is not true. The example he used of stealing $100 from a church is sufficiently grave matter to constitute a mortal sin if the person doing it knew what they were doing, knew it was wrong, and did it anyway. The fact that they didn’t know to classify it as a specifically *mortal *sin in their heads makes no difference.

In trying to refute that I may have painted with too broad a brush. Aramis, yes you are right of course…some things are always venial sins, even if committed with full knowledge and consent.

 

[Neil_Anthony]

IF YOU DID NOT REALIZE WHEN YOU COMMITED IT, YOU DIDN"T SIN MORTALLY!!!

Another thing is to forget and then remember, which we are talking about when in line already or the rail as mentioned.

Is it a mortal sin to intentionally not find out what things are mortal sins? If not, you found a big loophole

 

[ac_claire]

Is it a mortal sin to intentionally not find out what things are mortal sins? If not, you found a big loophole

The OP seems to enjoy looking for loopholes or even constructing them where they don’t exist. Most people don’t need that kind of wicked encouragement.

 

[Verbum_Caro]

Don’t worry, you’re not off topic. I didn’t explain what I meant very clearly. Really I was responding to Pro Domina’s assertion: “Now the thing about mortal sin is that you need to realize that you are comiting a mortal sin.” Which is not true. The example he used of stealing $100 from a church is sufficiently grave matter to constitute a mortal sin if the person doing it knew what they were doing, knew it was wrong, and did it anyway. The fact that they didn’t know to classify it as a specifically *mortal *sin in their heads makes no difference.

Ah, thanks for clearing up what you meant, ac!

VC

 

[Leonius]

IF YOU DID NOT REALIZE WHEN YOU COMMITED IT, YOU DIDN"T SIN MORTALLY!!!

You are oversimplifying the issue and so are coming to the wrong conclusion.

It would all depend on whether their ignorance for not knowing was culpable or not, if the reason they did not know it was a mortal sin was through their own fault it would still be a mortal sin, in fact not knowing would be another sin.

"It follows that ignorance has the nature of mortal sin on account of either a preceding negligence, or the consequent result; and, for this reason, ignorance is reckoned one of the general causes of sin. (St. Thomas Aquinas, ST II-II, Q.53, art.2, ad 2)

“If you are ignorant of the truths of the faith, you are obliged to learn them. Every Christian is bound to learn the Creed, the Our Father, or the Hail Mary under pain of mortal sin. Many have no idea of the Most Holy Trinity, the Incarnation, mortal sin, Judgment, Paradise, Hell, or Eternity; and this deplorable ignorance damns them.” (St. Alphonsus Maria Liguori)

It is perfectly possible to commit a mortal sin without knowing in your mind that what you did could be labelled a mortal sin. The CCC clearly labels stealing as grave matter, no Catholic has a valid excuse for not knowing that this is a mortal sin.

Also no one can be ignorant of the moral law written on every man’s heart, even those without the light of faith know it is evil to steal.

 

[Pro_Domina]

I agree with you on the first part. The thing about stealing always grave matter no. It is not always grave matter. It is conditioned by many things, though it is a case where repeated venials become mortal.

I hate to say this when it is starting to seem that I am finding loopholes, but sometimes stealing is not a sin, in the case of starvation, as the 5th commandment is superior. The preservation of life goes over the property rights. But no doubt, this is quite an exploited thing by the Liberation Theology.

Gosh how did I end up being labled as a loophole man when I used to get in trouble for bashing people with not prudence!

 

[Pro_Domina]

You read that I came to the wrong conclusion. I simply did not expound the phrase to the last conclusions, which does not mean I did not have what you quoted present. Culpable ignorance does remove the gravity of a mortal sin.

But unforunately two things enter: 1) The irresponsable or total lack of proper catechesis 2) So many new situations of sin or frequency of then unheard of sins that the average Catholic will be exposed too but not know the doctrine about it.

Take contraception in marriage. How misunderstood is that?
That another sin might enter fine, but the very sin of contraception is attenuated by ignorance that is certainly not culpable these days. Abortion is another thing, because it is so profoundly evil, it is well placed with in the bronze of our souls that it is wrong.
Murder as well and other things. No doubt that the soul has the 10 commandments engraved, but the explicit details are not.

Man I hate speaking about attenuating things.

But regardless, this world has it’s share of punishments coming, because the sins rise past the pagans and after Our Lord dying in the Cross and after the great progress of the Middle Ages we fall past the pagans.

 

[Ruthie]

I think the bone of contention in this long debate is one word: scandal.

*Scandal *has a meaning beyond the popular one. To the Church, it means:

Any action or its omission, not necessarily sinful in itself, that is likely to induce another to do something morally wrong. Direct scandal, also called diabolical, has the deliberate intention to induce another to sin. In indirect scandal a person does something that he or she foresees will at least likely lead another to commit sin, but this is rather tolerated than positively desired. (Etym. Latin scandalum, stumbling block.)

(from here)

Pro Domina, you will have to come up with a good example of how leaving the Communion line would tempt, or cause, another person to sin, before I would consider it a grave reason.

I tend to think it would present a good example rather than causing scandal.

Oh, and folks, It is possible to get in line without remembering a real mortal sin. I forgot once that I had deliberately chosen to miss Mass the previous Sunday! When I remembered, I didn’t *think *I had committed one, I *knew *it.

Heart of Jesus, wellspring of all virtue, mave mercy on us!

Ruthie

 

[ProVobis]

Oh, and folks, It is possible to get in line without remembering a real mortal sin. I forgot once that I had deliberately chosen to miss Mass the previous Sunday! When I remembered, I didn’t *think *I had committed one, I *knew *it.

Communion aside, you mean you could have died without knowing you needed to repent? Maybe it’s none of my business, but did you even say an act of contrition?

 

[Pro_Domina]

Ever heard of peer pressure?

Well that happens in the spiritual world as well.

You are going to argue that it is no news that people are sinners. But the fact that the whole world is in a pile of filth that claims vengeance to the Heavens does not mean the sense of repulse should be diminished or relaxed.

To demonstrate ones sin means people get the idea that everyone sins, so what is the use of fighting everyday. And that person is even of the better ones…

It deprives people of the support of the idea that others fight against temptations. And even if one person does that, it is enough to bring the idea that why not me too?

That is why the church puts in that canon. If not you are saying that the church ordered a pointless thing, since it clearly indicates the rule for lay as well.

 

[benedictgal]

Ever heard of peer pressure?

Well that happens in the spiritual world as well.

You are going to argue that it is no news that people are sinners. But the fact that the whole world is in a pile of filth that claims vengeance to the Heavens does not mean the sense of repulse should be diminished or relaxed.

To demonstrate ones sin means people get the idea that everyone sins, so what is the use of fighting everyday. And that person is even of the better ones…

It deprives people of the support of the idea that others fight against temptations. And even if one person does that, it is enough to bring the idea that why not me too?

That is why the church puts in that canon. If not you are saying that the church ordered a pointless thing, since it clearly indicates the rule for lay as well.

The big problem here is that it seems that we think that we have a right to receive Holy Communion despite the fact that we may not be properly disposed to do so. We fail to take into account that sin is a cancer, especially fatal to our souls when it is mortal. Thus, we have become anesthetized to sin.

Unfortunately, we also have the mistaken notion that, as my PV rightly observes, that we need to receive Holy Cmmunion in order to satisfy our obligation to attend Sunday Mass. That is further from the truth. If we are conscious of grave sin, we are to refrain from receiving Our Lord until such time as we have made a good and honest confession.

The Church did not make a pointless rule. She did this in order to safeguard the integrity of Holy Communion. The fault lies with us because we willfully disregard the norms that She has established.