Correlation between Traditional Latin Mass and Traditional Morals

[Neil_Anthony]

I’m curious about the correlation between people who prefer the Traditional Latin Mass and traditional pre-Vatican II morality. I’ll use Artificial Birth control as the example. Thanks for your (name removed by moderator)uts.

 

[parvenu74]

I’m curious about the correlation between people who prefer the Traditional Latin Mass and traditional pre-Vatican II morality. I’ll use Artificial Birth control as the example. Thanks for your (name removed by moderator)uts.

At the general level, you pose an interesting question, but at the specific level – the question of birth control – it’s not tied to traditionalism at all. Pope Paul VI, in Humanae Vitae, upheld traditional Church teaching that birth control is wrong (eg: a mortal sin). If you don’t assent to that then you’ve got your back to the Magisterium and one foot out of the Church (unless this has been infallibly defined, then you’re out of the Church altogether). This isn’t a question of spirituality but one of holding to Church teachings.

Perhaps your question should be significantly reworded?

 

[Neil_Anthony]

At the general level, you pose an interesting question, but at the specific level – the question of birth control – it’s not tied to traditionalism at all. Pope Paul VI, in Humanae Vitae, upheld traditional Church teaching that birth control is wrong (eg: a mortal sin). If you don’t assent to that then you’ve got your back to the Magisterium and one foot out of the Church (unless this has been infallibly defined, then you’re out of the Church altogether). This isn’t a question of spirituality but one of holding to Church teachings.

Perhaps your question should be significantly reworded?

I realize that Vatican II didn’t change the teaching on birth control, but almost all Catholics I meet seem to think it’s OK to use it. I understand that this changed in the 60’s, around the same time the Mass was changing. I’m curious if people who prefer the old Mass also stick to the traditional ideas as well.

 

[freudmacher]

but almost all Catholics I meet seem to think it’s OK to use it.

This is news to me. I guess I don’t ask people this…I grew up in Catholic school and I don’t know anyone that thinks it is ok. But then again, I didn’t know protestants thought it was ok until it was brought up in RCIA with a friend of mine that was becoming catholic. He had to explain it all to me, but of course, now he completely sees what is wrong with it.

I am NOT saying what you wrote is not true at all. I just didn’t know that, but this whole birth control thing being ok is new to me, as you can see from my statement above.

 

[Sr_Sally]

I will qualify my vote by saying that I prefer the beautiful, orthodox Ordinary Form Mass celebrated at my parish. I like praying in my mother tongue, I like all the readings, I like hearing the consecration.

 

[Neil_Anthony]

I keep hearing that 85% of catholics think birth control is Okay, but apparently it’s the other 15% who use this forum

 

[scylla]

I have never been to a TLM but a while ago I saw it on TV and on the web. It looks so much more like worshipping God and putting Him first so I put myself into the preferring the TLM.

I have attended a NO Mass most of my life but it is rare to see a faithful Mass where I live so I just endure and try to be as faithful as I can.

We are supposed to hold fast to the traditions given to us by word of mouth or epistle. So aren’t all faithful Catholics traditionalists? I would affirm all traditional teachings of the Catholic Church, shouldn’t all Catholics? The traditional practices are just reflections of the truth of Christ which never change.

In Christ
Scylla

 

[Joel_Tunnah]

I’m confused. The Church currently promotes the rythm-method, which they have renamed “Natural Family Planning”, NFP. With NFP, or with a condom, the outcome is the same: human ingenuity is put to use to prevent a child from being conceived.
So, it seems like the Church is not opposed to birth control.

 

[KathleenElsie]

I think the better wording would have been.

EF (TLM) & all teaching of the church
EF (TLM) & only what I feel like following (pick & choose)
OF (NO) & all the teachings of the church
OF (NO) & only what I feel like following (pick & choose)

I’ll take the first as I chose the first in the poll. I don’t always succeed in everything. I try and when I fail I confess with the intention of not doing the same again. Being human I know that I will fail again on my journey HOME but I do my best and ask for forgiveness because I know my thoughts and actions have offend God…

 

[EphelDuath]

What does “prefer” mean?

Which would I rather go to personally, or which would I rather be imposed on the Church?

 

[SemperFidelis]

With NFP, or with a condom, the outcome is the same: human ingenuity is put to use to prevent a child from being conceived.

Not to seem offensive, but the Church does not see it that way, and you are not the authority in this matter.

From Pope John Paul II’s book Love and Responsibility:

“The natural method, unlike artificial methods, seeks to regulate conception by taking advantage of circumstances in which conception cannot occur for biological reasons. Because of this the “naturalness” of sexual intercourse is not affected - whereas artificial methods do destroy the naturalness of intercourse. In the first case, infertility, in the second it is imposed in defiance of nature. Let us add that this problem is closely bound up with that of justice to the Creator - which we shall examine later in order to reveal its personalistic significance. The personalistic value of periodic continence as a method of regulating conception is evident not only in the fact that it preserves the “naturalness” of intercourse, but even more in the fact that in the wills of the persons concerned it must be grounded in a sufficiently mature virture. And this is where we see how important it is to interpret periodic continence correctly: the utilitarian interpretation distorts the true character of what we call the natural method, which is that it is based on continence as a virtue and this - as was shown in the previous chapter - is very closely connected with love of the person.” (pg. 240-241)

So, it seems like the Church is not opposed to birth control.

The Church is opposed birth control. NFP is only allowed to be practiced for a limited period of time. Extended use is a mortal sin.

 

[Cathryn]

I have never been to a TLM but a while ago I saw it on TV and on the web. It looks so much more like worshipping God and putting Him first so I put myself into the preferring the TLM.

I have attended a NO Mass most of my life but it is rare to see a faithful Mass where I live so I just endure and try to be as faithful as I can.

We are supposed to hold fast to the traditions given to us by word of mouth or epistle. So aren’t all faithful Catholics traditionalists? I would affirm all traditional teachings of the Catholic Church, shouldn’t all Catholics? The traditional practices are just reflections of the truth of Christ which never change.

In Christ
Scylla

Beautifully stated, and exactly what I believe.

 

[Neil_Anthony]

So far there are THREE TIMES as many traditional catholics who think it’s OK to use birth control. That’s quite a surprise to me…

 

[TMC]

I think ABC does not capture what you are looking for because although there are many Catholics (I would agree that it is most Catholics) that do not agree with the Church’s teaching in this area, there is little disagreement about what the teaching is. The more interesting divide occurs in areas where Catholics disagree over what the Church “really” teaches, such as the limits of the salvic effect of Christ’s Sacrifice, and the meaning of inerrancy of Scripture, to name two.

 

[Neil_Anthony]

I think ABC does not capture what you are looking for because although there are many Catholics (I would agree that it is most Catholics) that do not agree with the Church’s teaching in this area, there is little disagreement about what the teaching is. The more interesting divide occurs in areas where Catholics disagree over what the Church “really” teaches, such as the limits of the salvic effect of Christ’s Sacrifice, and the meaning of inerrancy of Scripture, to name two.

Interesting… I hope you start another poll…

 

[kleary]

I’m confused. The Church currently promotes the rythm-method, which they have renamed “Natural Family Planning”, NFP. With NFP, or with a condom, the outcome is the same: human ingenuity is put to use to prevent a child from being conceived.
So, it seems like the Church is not opposed to birth control.

This is wrong. The use of a condom is not how God designed the Marital Act. With the use of a condom you are purposefully having sexual relations during your wife’s fertile time and standing in the way of what God has designed.

…similar to you masturbating when your wife is fertile to avoid pregnancy.

The Church’s teaching is not opposed to NOT having sex when the woman is fertile, provided it is for GRAVE reasons. The Church’s teaching is opposed to having sex and blocking the purpose of it with something or doing something that is not the marital act (emmission outside the woman or in other areas so to say).

The “Rythem Meathod” was not “renamed” NFP. NFP goes way beyond the “Rythem Meathod” and the “Rythem Meathod” is actually unreliable.

Ken

 

[kleary]

I am actually appaled to even see three votes for those who attend the TLM regularly and believe using Artificial Contraception is not sinful.

The Traditionalists I know even deplore the use of NFP and would not even think of using Artificial Contraception. They all have like 5 and 6 kids and even more.

Ken

 

[Jenny_Z]

Ack!!! I picked the last option, but I meant to choose the next to last

 

[MH84]

I think the wording of the poll options needs to be corrected. Birth control is not necessarily a mortal sin, but a grave sin. It may become a mortal sin if the 3 requirements of a mortal snie have been met.

 

[Sure]

I think the wording of the poll options needs to be corrected. Birth control is not necessarily a mortal sin, but a grave sin. It may become a mortal sin if the 3 requirements of a mortal snie have been met.

Mortal and grave are synonyms in moral theology. When a document says grave sin it means mortal sin, there is no distinction. Both terms mean that the act itself is immoral and the intention and knowledge are sufficient for the gravity of the sin. The proper term to use in the poll would be **intrinsically evil **- namely that which can never be morally chosen.