Corrupting Altar Servers?

[RobNY]

Wait a second… she wanted to suspend you FOR KNEELING?!

Oh dear. Count to ten. Say a Hail Mary. Recollect self…

Ah.

Alright.

Ever think of playing her game? I don’t mean condescending to her level, but playing on her terms. She likes being a new-agey disrespectful liberal? Well, complain that your rights as an individual Catholic are being trampled on. She can’t claim that we don’t have to follow the GIRM and Rome, that those are just guidelines, and then set herself up as dictator. It’s illogical. If she can pick and choose, so can you.

More clearly: if she doesn’t have to listen to Rome, you don’t have to listen to her. If she claims that you do have to listen to her, claim that’s true, but only if she likewise recognizes that she has to listen to those above her.

Will it work? No! Can you try it anyway? Yes!

Heh.

Sadly, it really isn’t funny, though.

EDIT: Or start a revolution… a Eucharistic revolution! Hehe. Why not request to teach a Bible class with the parish, or something like that, or personally just start discussing with the altar servers about the Eucharist (and she can’t complain that you’re teaching them Catholic doctrine with looking absurd) and use it to pound on Eucharistic theology. The funny thing is, if people know what they’re receiving, they’ll start kneeling spontaneously. Oh, tricky tricky.

 

[AltarMan]

CatholicCid:

IMO, I’d say stay, so as to not allow the Parish to slip into farther abuse. If she directs you to one thing, could you not instruct your servers to do otherwise? If she questions you on it, have the Church Documents on hand stating how what you did was indeed correct.
Don’t see how she could argue that.

The bottom-line is that she schedules altar servers, so she has all the power (while we have no pastor and a lame-duck bishop), no matter who is right, and no matter what Church documents say.

Later this month we have a “training session” where I am sure she’ll give the ultimatum – stand or be gone. My choices are two. I can follow the Church and kneel. She’ll in turn spin this by saying I have chosen not to serve with my decision not to follow “the Bishops” directive.

Conversely I can act like an eel, agree with what she want to hear while continuing to kneel anyway. Hopefully it would take her long enough to notice that I am still kneeling, and in the mean time we will get a new pastor and I’ll have recourse.

What I will not do is stand during the consecration. That’s not going to happen.

 

[AltarMan]

If the Bishop has confirmed that you are to stand, maybe it would be best to stand? I’m pretty new to the faith, but it seems like the best way to show respect to Christ is by submitting to the authority He has established.

In insisting on kneeling and causing discord, you’re really taking the attention off of Christ and off of the mass and making it about yourself and your disagreements. Wouldn’t it be better to submit to authority, offer the suffering up to God if you feel so strongly,and focus on worshipping Christ in the way that causes the least trouble? Being so resolved on this, it would seem that you are stronger in your faith than many people, and by kneeling and sewing discord you are creating a disagreement and a distraction to the mass that will almost certainly discourage those who are weaker in their faith…

Just my $0.02,
John

I have no idea what the bishop actually said (if anything.) Given that the altar servers at the other 15+ parishes in our deanery all kneel, this makes me think that if the bishop actually said he prefers us to stand, that he did so only after she qualified things by saying there was a lack of space to kneel, safety issues, etc. - which there is not.

As far as the focus of the Mass, the discord would not be evident to anyone attending the Mass.

 

[YinYangMom]

UPDATE:

Now the woman in charge of altar servers has supposidly “contacted the bishop” (who has tendered his resignation and is a lame duck) to ensure her mandate of altar servers standing throughout the Eucharistic Prayer is followed (we currently have no pastor.)

The bishop supposidly said something like " I would prefer they stand", but only God knows how she couched the question. She likely suggested there were space issues, safety issues, old-age issues etc. (which there are not) connected with servers actually kneeling during the consecration. In all the other parishes in our deanery the servers kneel.

I have two questions.

1.) What would make someone act the way the way this woman does? Extreme insecurity? Pride? Could it be that she is actually evil? This is turning out to be an obsession with her – she can’t “lose” it seems.

2.) Should I pack it in, or try to survive until we have a new pastor (and bishop) so that I could actually complain to someone if I am directed to do something that goes again the Church’s directives?

Thank you all. This is most troublesome – for me, but especially for the young man I trained to serve at the altar.

Have faith, have patience. If you feel you are low in one or the other or both, pray for strength.

How this woman couched the request does not matter. What her intent is, does not matter. To whom much is given much will be expected and at this rate I’m more worried about her soul than the day-to-day stuff, but day-to-day is what you have to contend with. Leave her conversion, her growth, her revelation to the Spirit.

You, this is another one of those beautiful teaching moments between you and your young steward…time to teach the lessons of obedience and patience. The bishop has spoken, lame duck or not, he has spoken in support (however weak) of this woman. So you and he will comply and pray intently the entire time you are standing during the consecration for the Spirit to send the new bishop and pastor sooner than later. The replacements will be sent and at that time they will deal with the woman and we pray you and your steward will be free once again to worship and serve our Lord as intended. Remain strong and I will continue to pray for you and your parish.

YYM

 

[AltarMan]

YinYangMom:

Have faith, have patience. If you feel you are low in one or the other or both, pray for strength.

How this woman couched the request does not matter. What her intent is, does not matter. To whom much is given much will be expected and at this rate I’m more worried about her soul than the day-to-day stuff, but day-to-day is what you have to contend with. Leave her conversion, her growth, her revelation to the Spirit.

You, this is another one of those beautiful teaching moments between you and your young steward…time to teach the lessons of obedience and patience. The bishop has spoken, lame duck or not, he has spoken in support (however weak) of this woman. So you and he will comply and pray intently the entire time you are standing during the consecration for the Spirit to send the new bishop and pastor sooner than later. The replacements will be sent and at that time they will deal with the woman and we pray you and your steward will be free once again to worship and serve our Lord as intended. Remain strong and I will continue to pray for you and your parish.

YYM

Thank you for your wisdom. You are right. My biggest fear however is that the next pastor will see the standing as normative and it will continue forever.

The woman and her associates have brought a mountain of abuse into my parish and I deeply resent it. I believe this clouds my judgement from time to time.

No matter what happens with me, rest assured that the young man I trained is on the right path. He is absolutely resolute in his support of the Church. My guess is that he will end-up as a senior server at a surrounding parish.

 

[AltarMan]

RobNY:

Wait a second… she wanted to suspend you FOR KNEELING?!

Oh dear. Count to ten. Say a Hail Mary. Recollect self…

Ah.

Alright.

Ever think of playing her game? I don’t mean condescending to her level, but playing on her terms. She likes being a new-agey disrespectful liberal? Well, complain that your rights as an individual Catholic are being trampled on. **She can’t claim that we don’t have to follow the GIRM and Rome, that those are just guidelines, and then set herself up as dictator. **It’s illogical. If she can pick and choose, so can you.

More clearly: if she doesn’t have to listen to Rome, you don’t have to listen to her. If she claims that you do have to listen to her, claim that’s true, but only if she likewise recognizes that she has to listen to those above her.

Will it work? No! Can you try it anyway? Yes!

Heh.

Sadly, it really isn’t funny, though.

EDIT: Or start a revolution… a Eucharistic revolution! Hehe. Why not request to teach a Bible class with the parish, or something like that, or personally just start discussing with the altar servers about the Eucharist (and she can’t complain that you’re teaching them Catholic doctrine with looking absurd) and use it to pound on Eucharistic theology. The funny thing is, if people know what they’re receiving, they’ll start kneeling spontaneously. Oh, tricky tricky.

She has and she did. This happens all he time here…

 

[YinYangMom]

AltarMan:

Conversely I can act like an eel, agree with what she want to hear while continuing to kneel anyway. Hopefully it would take her long enough to notice that I am still kneeling, and in the mean time we will get a new pastor and I’ll have recourse.

What I will not do is stand during the consecration. That’s not going to happen.

To say one thing while doing another shows a lack of integrity for your word. So that’s not an option.

You cannot bring yourself to stand during the consecration, for noble and honorable reasons, but still in disobedience to the bishop. So standing is not an option.

That means you need to step down from being a server until such time as a new pastor and/or bishop is brought to your parish/diocese, at which time you can offer your services once it becomes apparent kneeling will be restored.

Your steward would have to make his own decision.

The only possible ‘out’ I can see is when you mention you don’t really know what the bishop said…I take it you’re having to take her word for that or did she happen to get it in writing? If it is not in writing and we already know her integrity isn’t intact then I suppose you would be well within your right to challenge her itegrity against yours. Tell you you’ll consider the directive of the bishop when you see it in writing, until then you will continue to follow the way you were trained (I can’t find the documentation which says servers are to kneel, if you have that anywhere it should help…it’s gotta be somewhere!).

 

[YinYangMom]

AltarMan:

Thank you for your wisdom. You are right. My biggest fear however is that the next pastor will see the standing as normative and it will continue forever.

The woman and her associates have brought a mountain of abuse into my parish and I deeply resent it. I believe this clouds my judgement from time to time.

No matter what happens with me, rest assured that the young man I trained is on the right path. He is absolutely resolute in his support of the Church. My guess is that he will end-up as a senior server at a surrounding parish.

Give your fears to Jesus and have faith that the gates of hell shall not prevail against His Church. Remain faithful and true for the sake of the future of your parish.

Give your resentment toward this woman and her associates to Jesus at Adoration. He is speaking to you through them. He is helping you exercise your virtues and demonstrate your love and servitude for Him.

Offer any discomfort you experience through having to endure this woman’s leadership up for the souls in purgatory, or maybe even for her own conversion of heart.

You can get through this if you allow Jesus to lead. Remember, we’re praying for you and your parish so you are so not alone.

 

[AltarMan]

YinYangMom:

To say one thing while doing another shows a lack of integrity for your word. So that’s not an option.

You cannot bring yourself to stand during the consecration, for noble and honorable reasons, but still in disobedience to the bishop. So standing is not an option.

That means you need to step down from being a server until such time as a new pastor and/or bishop is brought to your parish/diocese, at which time you can offer your services once it becomes apparent kneeling will be restored.

Your steward would have to make his own decision.

The only possible ‘out’ I can see is when you mention you don’t really know what the bishop said…I take it you’re having to take her word for that or did she happen to get it in writing? If it is not in writing and we already know her integrity isn’t intact then I suppose you would be well within your right to challenge her itegrity against yours. Tell you you’ll consider the directive of the bishop when you see it in writing, until then you will continue to follow the way you were trained (I can’t find the documentation which says servers are to kneel, if you have that anywhere it should help…it’s gotta be somewhere!).

If it was in writing from the bishop, or if it was a standing directive, I would either follow it or quit. There is NO WAY the bishop is going to put this in writing – if the directive even exists.

You’re right though, I can’t sleaze-down to her level. I will tell her that I will continue to kneel until I am told differently by my pastor or bishop.

That will cause her to no longer schedule me to serve, and I am coming to terms with that. The realization should become even more comfortable with added prayer.

(Rf. Girm #43 and #179)

Thank you again for your insight.

 

[Reepicheep]

AltarMan:

Is it possible for you to contact the Bishop yourself, and ask him what he said? Or have one of the priests do this on your behalf?
If you discover that he didn’t give this directive, or that she deceived him and he is willing to rescind it…
In any case, I offer prayers for you and the other server. Be faithful.

 

[AltarMan]

Reepicheep:

AltarMan:

Is it possible for you to contact the Bishop yourself, and ask him what he said? Or have one of the priests do this on your behalf?
If you discover that he didn’t give this directive, or that she deceived him and he is willing to rescind it…
In any case, I offer prayers for you and the other server. Be faithful.

Not really. The bishop has been “out to lunch” for several months now, ever since he rendered his resignation. He recently spent a few days here calming-down the parish after he (rightfully) removed our last pastor. That’s when the altar server woman talked to him I’m sure.

I most certainly appreciate the prayers. I am seeing first hand how evilness slithers into the celebration of the Mass hee locally. It’s most disturbing and I need all the support I can get.

 

[AltarMan]

RobNY:

Wait a second… she wanted to suspend you FOR KNEELING?!

Oh dear. Count to ten. Say a Hail Mary. Recollect self…

Ah.

Alright.

Ever think of playing her game? I don’t mean condescending to her level, but playing on her terms. She likes being a new-agey disrespectful liberal? Well, complain that your rights as an individual Catholic are being trampled on. She can’t claim that we don’t have to follow the GIRM and Rome, that those are just guidelines, and then set herself up as dictator. It’s illogical. If she can pick and choose, so can you.

More clearly: if she doesn’t have to listen to Rome, you don’t have to listen to her. If she claims that you do have to listen to her, claim that’s true, but only if she likewise recognizes that she has to listen to those above her.

Will it work? No! Can you try it anyway? Yes!

Heh.

Sadly, it really isn’t funny, though.

EDIT: Or start a revolution… a Eucharistic revolution! Hehe. Why not request to teach a Bible class with the parish, or something like that, or personally just start discussing with the altar servers about the Eucharist (and she can’t complain that you’re teaching them Catholic doctrine with looking absurd) and use it to pound on Eucharistic theology. The funny thing is, if people know what they’re receiving, they’ll start kneeling spontaneously. Oh, tricky tricky.

I started a Scripture study group here almost 4 years ago with the support of a former pastor. Very orthodox. Very rewarding.

 

[Lux_et_veritas]

UPDATE:

Now the woman in charge of altar servers has supposidly “contacted the bishop” (who has tendered his resignation and is a lame duck) to ensure her mandate of altar servers standing throughout the Eucharistic Prayer is followed (we currently have no pastor.)

The bishop supposidly said something like " I would prefer they stand", but only God knows how she couched the question. She likely suggested there were space issues, safety issues, old-age issues etc. (which there are not) connected with servers actually kneeling during the consecration. In all the other parishes in our deanery the servers kneel.

I have two questions.

1.) What would make someone act the way the way this woman does? Extreme insecurity? Pride? Could it be that she is actually evil? This is turning out to be an obsession with her – she can’t “lose” it seems.

2.) Should I pack it in, or try to survive until we have a new pastor (and bishop) so that I could actually complain to someone if I am directed to do something that goes again the Church’s directives?

Thank you all. This is most troublesome – for me, but especially for the young man I trained to serve at the altar.

Altar Man,

I see two things you could do, and probably should do:

1. Don’t worry about informing any priest that comes there to do Holy Mass that you have been advised to stand during the Consecration. See what he says. Obviously, if the priest says you should kneel, then you kneel and ask him if he would please talk to the woman, that she is telling other altar servers to stand.
2. If the celebrant backs up the woman, then send a letter with all facts - names, places, and dates to:

Francis Cardinal Arinze
Prefect, Congregation for Divine Worship and Sacraments
Piazza XII, 10
00193 Vatican City

The letter should stick to the facts and be objective as opposed to subjecting emotionalism. Keep it as short as you can, while keeping in the facts. Then, stick it out if you can handle it as it may take some time for contact to be made with authorities in your area to correct the abuse.

Lay people, nor priests, have the right to circumvent the GIRM. Some liberties are allowed in some areas, and these are noted.

Remember something if contacting the CDW or talking to the celebrant concerns you: You are talking about the Consecration - the most sacred part of the Liturgy. Redemptionis Sacramentum tells us this about reporting abuses:

6. Complaints Regarding Abuses in Liturgical Matters

[183.] In an altogether particular manner, let everyone do all that is in their power to ensure that the Most Holy Sacrament of the Eucharist will be protected from any and every irreverence or distortion and that all abuses be thoroughly corrected. This is a most serious duty incumbent upon each and every one, and all are bound to carry it out without any favouritism.

[184.] Any Catholic, whether Priest or Deacon or lay member of Christ’s faithful, has the right to lodge a complaint regarding a liturgical abuse to the diocesan Bishop or the competent Ordinary equivalent to him in law, or to the Apostolic See on account of the primacy of the Roman Pontiff.[290] It is fitting, however, insofar as possible, that the report or complaint be submitted first to the diocesan Bishop. This is naturally to be done in truth and charity.

Since your local Ordinary is out of commission, I see no need to contact him personally. This woman may not be reigned in immediately, but she will. The CDW *will *address the issue, you can be assured. Hopefully, this happens within a 3 month time frame at the most.

 

[LindaS]

It is my understanding, and I could very well be wrong, that a diocese and its Bishop, is under the direct supervision (for want of a better word) of an Archbishop in an Archdiocese. For example, I live in the Camden (NJ) diocese, and our Bishop is Joseph Galante. We are under the “supervision” of Cardinal Rigali of the Archdiocese of Philadelphia. BTW, you can also contact the Apostolic Delegate here in the US. Sorry I don’t know who that is.

Peace,
Linda

 

[Joysong]

Dear Altarman,

My heart goes out to you as you try to work out this difficult situation. I am a little puzzled where to find the article in the GIRM that specifies kneeling, except for the rubrics for deacons, and I think I read all of it without finding the section that spells it out. Can you help me find it?
usccb.org/liturgy/current/revmissalisromanien.shtml

There’s an old saying, “You can force me to stand, but I’m kneeling on the inside!!!”

As such, God sees the heart of the worshipper, no matter the position. I would think there should be uniformity, especially in the sanctuary, lest the congregation be scandalized by everyone doing what seems best. It does not give good witness.

I occasionally attended a Mass in Florida where the entire congregation stands for the Eucharistic Prayer. Chaos would reign if the people looked like jackrabbits with half on the floor on their knees and the other half standing. I did not like it a bit, but I believe in a matter that is not sinful, such as posture, it would be good for me to do in Rome as the Romans. After all, it did not affect the worship in my spirit, because of my reverence and devotion - I was “kneeling on the inside.”

You have received a lot of good advice, and I’m sure the Lord will guide you to do what you know is right.

With a prayer for your intentions,
Carole

 

[Lux_et_veritas]

Here is what the GIRM says about the posture and it comes in a form of a letter which clarifies what is in the GIRM. The USCCB and the Holy See agree on this point:

The General Instruction to the Roman Missal, paragraph 42, was adapted by the Bishops in regard to this question. It reads:

In the dioceses of the United States of America, they should kneel beginning after the singing or recitation of the Sanctus until after the Amen of the Eucharistic Prayer, except when prevented on occasion by reasons of health, lack of space, the large number of people present, or some other good reason. [note how personal preference is left out here] Those who do not kneel [for the few circumstances listed] ought to make a profound bow when the priest genuflects after the consecration.The only licit posture of the faithful during the Eucharistic Prayer is kneeling, unless they are prevented on occasion from kneeling due to " health, lack of space, the large number of people present, or some other good reason." The determination of what constitutes “some other good reason” is best made by the Diocesan Bishop. [who, if not currently “in office” is not qualified to make the call, imho - it would be much like a retired or disqualified coach making calls from his couch]

Full text here: usccb.org/liturgy/innews/092002.shtml

Uniformity does not trump following very clearly stated rubrics.Out of charity I would go so far as to show this letter to the lady and to the celebrant for a particular Mass in which you seek his support to kneel, in spite of directions from the woman.

So, what the altar-lady is trying to do is to convince people that the diocesan bishop (who is currently out of commission) gave her express permission to have standing during the Eucharistic Prayer. However, there is significant suspicion over the likely fact (which only Altar Man can clarify), that the situation is not so crowded as to require altar boys to stand.

Once again, I would turn it over to the proper authorities to investigage. If they find nothing wrong, then no harm done. If they do find an abuse, they will correct it. This may very well be, as the poster above says, an archbishop or cardinal for the area. To whom did this Bishop report?

RS, posted above states that abuses should be reported without favoratism.

Great document that covers posture during the Eucharistic Prayer. Read in particular the history taking place at 2001 and 2002.

litpress.org/PDFs/Girm6.pdf

 

[Joysong]

**

**The only licit posture of the faithful during the Eucharistic Prayer is kneeling, unless they are prevented **

on occasion from kneeling due to " health, lack of space, the large number of people present, or some other good reason." The determination of what constitutes “some other good reason” is best made by the Diocesan Bishop. **

Thanks Diane,

In the Florida church, they had no kneelers — so the people were expected to stand. But as you said, it may have been a determination or permission granted by their Diocesan Bishop. If I was a permanent member there, I would have consulted a higher authority immediately when the church architects phased out the kneelers (!!), in hopes of preventing this entirely — but while I was there only as a visitor, and after the sad fact, I did as the Romans.

I agree that Altar Man is wise in writing to those who have the final say, but in the meanwhile, I see no real danger to his soul if he stands. Since his Bishop did give direction to stand, he is not in disobedience if he follows him. The greater sin, imo, could be divisiveness and disunity among the faithful.

I appreciate your (name removed by moderator)ut.

Carole

 

[YinYangMom]

AltarMan:

If it was in writing from the bishop, or if it was a standing directive, I would either follow it or quit. There is NO WAY the bishop is going to put this in writing – if the directive even exists.

You’re right though, I can’t sleaze-down to her level. I will tell her that I will continue to kneel until I am told differently by my pastor or bishop.

That will cause her to no longer schedule me to serve, and I am coming to terms with that. The realization should become even more comfortable with added prayer.

(Rf. Girm #43 and #179)

Thank you again for your insight.

Sounds like the best plan for you.
I wonder if you can get the other servers to respectfully decline as well, after showing them the GIRM…what could the woman do if no one is left to serve???

 

[Lux_et_veritas]

Joysong:

Thanks Diane,

In the Florida church, they had no kneelers — so the people were expected to stand. But as you said, it may have been a determination or permission granted by their Diocesan Bishop. If I was a permanent member there, I would have consulted a higher authority immediately when the church architects phased out the kneelers (!!), in hopes of preventing this entirely — but while I was there only as a visitor, and after the sad fact, I did as the Romans.

I agree that Altar Man is wise in writing to those who have the final say, but in the meanwhile, I see no real danger to his soul if he stands. Since his Bishop did give direction to stand, he is not in disobedience if he follows him. The greater sin, imo, could be divisiveness and disunity among the faithful.

I appreciate your (name removed by moderator)ut.

Carole

My lifelong parish, before I moved over to Grotto, had no kneelers built in. People that wanted to kneel, knelt on the carpeted floor. They parish reasoned that its lower pews were conducive to kneeling on the floor, eliminating the need for kneelers. Tell that to an elderly person strugglign to get back up.

In that parish, with no kneelers, the pastor humbly complied with the directive to kneel during the Eucharistic Prayer.

I’m of a different opinion in that I would likely stand my ground on kneeling with the rest of the congregation. I’d be interested to know if the rest of the congregation is standing.

In my current parish, grotto. we have loads of altar boys and all kneel during the Eucharistic Prayer.

If the Altar Woman is forcing these young men to stand without express permission from the diocesan bishop, then she is openly disobeying the Holy See and the USCCB. We are not bound by obedience when the person to whom we answer is not in full communion with the Holy See on a given issue. There is reasonable suspicion that she is not in communion.

I would probably stand my ground and when and if she “fired” me, I would send a second letter to the CDW indicating that I lost my altar server role as a result of obeying the GIRM.

Something missing here is priestly intervention. At the lowest level is where things should be resolved. I would speak to the visiting priests when Mass is said and get support that way first. If it cannot be had, and if no one can furnish a letter with a Bishops signature indicating the need for standing, then I would promptly report it to the CDW.

And remember, the key word for the exception is “occassional”. This refers more than likely to large concelebrations where it is not practical for all to kneel due to tight space, aside from health reasons.

 

[Joysong]

Diane:

Here is what the GIRM says about the posture and it comes in a form of a letter which clarifies what is in the GIRM. The USCCB and the Holy See agree on this point

:

Maybe a copy of this letter is what AltarMan needs to obtain? How did you obtain this information? How can any of us learn these things, as well?

This is an example of what I meant elsewhere, that when something is not specifically stated in the actual GIRM, there may be *letters *clarifying an issue among the clergy, to which the general congregation would not have access, and which would determine whether or not an action is an abuse.

Thanks again,
Carole