Corrupting Altar Servers?

[Lux_et_veritas]

Google search:

kneeling and consecration

or posture for consecration

Once I found the date of the document in that PDF file (April 25, 2002), I typed the date and kneeling and consecration.

I hate hunting things down in the GIRM because there are often letters of clarification, or furhter clarification in Redemptionis Sacramentum which came out in 2004 specifically to address Liturgical Abuse.

Type Redemptionis Sacramentum into google and you’ll get the Vatican’s copy first. I adivise all to read it and to follow up on the GIRM. I purchased a copy of the GIRM from the USCCB site and read a little at a time. Once you read it, you won’t believe just how much liturgical abuse is taking place out there. However, much of it is on the part of well-intentioned lay people who don’t really know any better, and priests who either are not keeping up with their business, or are blatantly disregarding the material.

Once google turns up a section in the GIRM, I then search that section number in the actual document to get into the ballpark.

Adoremus is a really good source, but my net is lockign up right now. Look for Adoremus Bulletin in google. Then they partition it. Somewhere they have a whole section just on posture with links to the GIRM, RS, etc.

 

[AltarMan]

LindaS:

It is my understanding, and I could very well be wrong, that a diocese and its Bishop, is under the direct supervision (for want of a better word) of an Archbishop in an Archdiocese. For example, I live in the Camden (NJ) diocese, and our Bishop is Joseph Galante. We are under the “supervision” of Cardinal Rigali of the Archdiocese of Philadelphia. BTW, you can also contact the Apostolic Delegate here in the US. Sorry I don’t know who that is.

Peace,
Linda

Not so. While an archbishop/cardinal is the head of an *ecclesiastical province *(which includes not only his archdiocese but other suffragan dioceses as well), his actual control over other dioceses in the province is very limited.

 

[AltarMan]

YinYangMom:

Sounds like the best plan for you.
I wonder if you can get the other servers to respectfully decline as well, after showing them the GIRM…what could the woman do if no one is left to serve???

I’m sure a few others will get “fired” as well. Actually she’ll say “I’m sorry you have chosen to no longer to take part in this ministry by refusing to follow the rules.”

I think it might be part of this woman’s plan. Get rid of the older and well experienced servers at the early morning Mass we serve and import some of her minions that don’t have a clue, yet are beholding to her. (Her minions did a fine job two weeks ago. After dressing the altar, there was some confusion once the priest approached – they had forgotten to set-up a chalice and a paten.)

 

[AltarMan]

Lux_et_veritas:

…Since your local Ordinary is out of commission, I see no need to contact him personally. This woman may not be reigned in immediately, but she will. The CDW will address the issue, you can be assured. Hopefully, this happens within a 3 month time frame at the most.

What makes you suggest the CDW will address any letter I send them on this matter? They won’t, no way.

This problem in no way approaches graviora delicta, nor is it even a “grave matter” per RS.

 

[Amado_de_Dios]

Dear all,

I don’t want to deflect attention from the courageous AltarMan (keep on fightin’ ). However, I do want to ask for your prayers, as I myself have been recently made an altar server. I don’t have anyone to instruct me (yesterday I actually tried to pour wine over the priest’s fingers ), and am very nervous by nature ( you can see my hands really shake when pouring the wine and water ). Plus, I have to give a small class before Mass on the rubrics to the congregation

That’s all, thanks!

 

[AltarMan]

Amado de Dios:

Dear all,

I don’t want to deflect attention from the courageous AltarMan (keep on fightin’ ). However, I do want to ask for your prayers, as I myself have been recently made an altar server. I don’t have anyone to instruct me (yesterday I actually tried to pour wine over the priest’s fingers ), and am very nervous by nature ( you can see my hands really shake when pouring the wine and water ). Plus, I have to give a small class before Mass on the rubrics to the congregation

That’s all, thanks!

You have my prayers. As a server, you should never be pouring wine or water into a chalice during the celebration of the normative Pauline Mass – that’s up to the deacon or the priestly celebrant.

You will pour water over the priest’s hands during the lavabo (hand washing) but that’s it unless you are asked to assist during the purification of the sacred vessels.

If you are going to “give a small class before Mass on the rubrics” and are not aware of these facts, I strongly suggest you spend considerable time in study and prayer before you attempt to give such a class.

 

[Lux_et_veritas]

AltarMan:

What makes you suggest the CDW will address any letter I send them on this matter? They won’t, no way.
This problem in no way approaches graviora delicta, nor is it even a “grave matter” per RS.

Well, enlighten me on what grave matter is considered. Are we talking about a difference between making the Mass invalid (very serious) or simply having something going on that is illicit? I think it is the latter - something that is illicit. In no way does it invalidate the Mass to have people standing during the Eucharistic Prayer, but nonetheless it is still abuse. Any abuse can be reported by a lay person, religious or clergy.

Is it grave matter for a lay person to preach the homily?

Is it grave matter to have people dancing in the aisle ways?

Is it grave matter to ad lib the rubrics?

Is it grave matter to force people to stand rather than sit or kneel following communion?

All of these involved letters that went to the CDW (and probably continue to flow in). Each case is looked into on an individual basis.

 

[Lux_et_veritas]

In fact, here is a good outline for abuse reporting. Note that “extremely serious” only falls in the point about using the St. Joseph Foundation. But, the same is not said about mailing the nuncio or the CDW.

catholicliturgy.com/index.cfm/FuseAction/LawText/Index/6/SubIndex/10/LawIndex/4

) Pray for patience and Christian charity.
2) Talk to the pastor. There is a possibility that he is only ignorant and would be happy to do what is right if he knew what right was.

1. Get a sufficient number of orthodox Catholics who are liturgically literate onto the parish liturgy committee to influence the voting.

4)Write to the bishop. This will possibly result in nothing but a cursory letter acknowledging your concern, but it is the proper procedure to follow.

5)If the matter is of extreme seriousness, such as made up eucharistic prayers or heretical homilies, write to the St. Joseph Foundation :
11107 Wurzbach, #601B
San Antonio, TX 78230-2570
Even though this organization is swamped with requests for help, they are often able to provide clear legal advice and documentation.

6)If the matter cannot (or will not) be handled by the bishop, write to the Apostolic Nuncio:
Most Rev, Gabriel Montalvo
Apostolic Pro Nuncio
3339 Massachusetts Ave. NW
Washington, DC 20008
fax 202-337-4036

1. Write to the Congregation for Divine Worship:
   His Eminence Jorge Arturo Cardinal Medina Estevez
   Prefect Congregation for Divine Worship and Discipline of the Sacraments
   Palazzo delle Congrazioni Piazza Pio XII, 10
   00193 Roma

 

[AltarMan]

Lux_et_veritas:

Well, enlighten me on what grave matter is considered.

Per RS:

1. Grave Matters
2. Although the gravity of a matter is to be judged in accordance with the common teaching of the Church and the norms established by her, objectively to be considered among grave matters is anything that puts at risk the validity and dignity of the Most Holy Eucharist: namely, anything that contravenes what is set out above in nn. 48-52, 56, 76-77, 79, 91-92, 94, 96, 101-102, 104, 106, 109, 111, 115, 117, 126, 131-133, 138, 153 and 168. Moreover, attention should be given to the other prescriptions of the Code of Canon Law, and especially what is laid down by canons 1364, 1369, 1373, 1376, 1380, 1384, 1385, 1386, and 1398.

 

[Amado_de_Dios]

AltarMan:

You have my prayers. As a server, you should never be pouring wine or water into a chalice during the celebration of the normative Pauline Mass – that’s up to the deacon or the priestly celebrant.

Oops! I forgot to mention. I assist at the Tridentine Mass. There is no deacon where I go.

You will pour water over the priest’s hands during the lavabo (hand washing) but that’s it unless you are asked to assist during the purification of the sacred vessels.

You know, it’s funny. A few minutes ago, I wrote that I screwed up when attempting to pour wine over the priest’s fingers at the ablutions. But I have now located another source that says that is what I should do. I’m going to look for a third one (in latin) and if it says the same, I’m gonna have to talk with my priest.

If you are going to “give a small class before Mass on the rubrics” and are not aware of these facts, I strongly suggest you spend considerable time in study and prayer before you attempt to give such a class.

Bad wording on my part. It’s not exactly the rubrics of the priest that I’m going to expalin, but the “rubrics” for the people. When to stand, when to kneel, what the bells mean, etc.

Thanks for your prayers AltarMan!

 

[Lux_et_veritas]

AltarMan:

Per RS:

1. Grave Matters
2. Although the gravity of a matter is to be judged in accordance with the common teaching of the Church and the norms established by her, objectively to be considered among grave matters is anything that puts at risk the validity and dignity of the Most Holy Eucharist: namely, anything that contravenes what is set out above in nn. 48-52, 56, 76-77, 79, 91-92, 94, 96, 101-102, 104, 106, 109, 111, 115, 117, 126, 131-133, 138, 153 and 168. Moreover, attention should be given to the other prescriptions of the Code of Canon Law, and especially what is laid down by canons 1364, 1369, 1373, 1376, 1380, 1384, 1385, 1386, and 1398.

You’ve defined “grave matter” but no where in the section on liturgical abuse (re-pasted below) that I have seen, suggests it must be grave matter. What you have above literally threatens the validity of the Mass. There is another form of abuse in which the action is “illicit” and does not invalidate the Mass. What you quote above is certainly the most serious of offenses. But I see nothing here that states illicit practices should not be reported if you cannot work through a parish priest or bishop (and your hands appear tied).

Find “grave matter” with regards to reporting abuses within this section on complaints:

6. Complaints Regarding Abuses in Liturgical Matters

[183.] In an altogether particular manner, let everyone do all that is in their power to ensure that the Most Holy Sacrament of the Eucharist will be protected from any and every irreverence or distortion and that all abuses be thoroughly corrected. This is a most serious duty incumbent upon each and every one, and all are bound to carry it out without any favouritism.

[184.] Any Catholic, whether Priest or Deacon or lay member of Christ’s faithful, has the right to lodge a complaint regarding a liturgical abuse to the diocesan Bishop or the competent Ordinary equivalent to him in law, or to the Apostolic See on account of the primacy of the Roman Pontiff.[290] It is fitting, however, insofar as possible, that the report or complaint be submitted first to the diocesan Bishop. This is naturally to be done in truth and charity.

 

[Lux_et_veritas]

Lets look at the whole section which differentiates. Notice that grave matter is not repeated in what I posted above. Rather, it simply states “Liturgical Abuse” as opposed to stating that only Graviora Delicta and Grave Matter issues be reported. It does not exclude (3) “other abuses” listed below that fall outside of (1) and (2)

171.] Among the various abuses there are some which are objectively graviora delicta or otherwise constitute grave matters, as well as others which are nonetheless to be carefully avoided and corrected. Bearing in mind everything that is treated especially in Chapter I of this Instruction, attention should be paid to what follows.
1. Graviora delicta

[172.] *Graviora delicta *against the sanctity of the Most August Sacrifice and Sacrament of the Eucharist are to be handled in accordance with the ‘Norms concerning *graviora delicta *reserved to the Congregation for the Doctrine of the Faith’,[280] namely:

a) taking away or retaining the consecrated species for sacrilegious ends, or the throwing them away;[281]

b) the attempted celebration of the liturgical action of the Eucharistic Sacrifice or the simulation of the same;[282]

c) the forbidden concelebration of the Eucharistic Sacrifice with ministers of Ecclesial Communities that do not have the apostolic succession nor acknowledge the sacramental dignity of priestly Ordination;[283]

d) the consecration for sacrilegious ends of one matter without the other in the celebration of the Eucharist or even of both outside the celebration of the Eucharist.[284]

2. Grave Matters

[173.] Although the gravity of a matter is to be judged in accordance with the common teaching of the Church and the norms established by her, objectively to be considered among grave matters is anything that puts at risk the validity and dignity of the Most Holy Eucharist: namely, anything that contravenes what is set out above in nn. 48-52, 56, 76-77, 79, 91-92, 94, 96, 101-102, 104, 106, 109, 111, 115, 117, 126, 131-133, 138, 153 and 168.Moreover, attention should be given to the other prescriptions of the Code of Canon Law, and especially what is laid down by canons 1364, 1369, 1373, 1376, 1380, 1384, 1385, 1386, and 1398.

3. Other Abuses

[174.] Furthermore, those actions that are brought about which are contrary to the other matters treated elsewhere in this Instruction or in the norms established by law are not to be considered of little account, but are to be numbered among the other abuses to be carefully avoided and corrected.

[175.] The things set forth in this Instruction obviously do not encompass all the violations against the Church and its discipline that are defined in the canons, in the liturgical laws and in other norms of the Church for the sake of the teaching of the Magisterium or sound tradition. Where something wrong has been committed, it is to be corrected according to the norm of law.

 

[AltarMan]

It’s extremely naive to suggest the CDF will get involved with something like this. If I wrote them, my letter would be forwarded to my lame-duck bishop where it would die. At the very most I would receive a petulant letter (like I did regarding my concern about the horde of EMsHC that invade our sanctuary at the kiss of peace) from my bishop telling me in no uncertain terms that he knows what he is doing and to back-off.

There is no recourse at this point, and that’s something that sucks about the Church from time to time.

P.S. So that you know, the demand that I stand is not a “liturgical abuse.” It’s certainly wrong, it certainly contravenes the GIRM, but it’s not a “liturgical abuse.” That phrase is over-used and incorrectly used which cheapens it.

 

[Lux_et_veritas]

AltarMan:

It’s extremely naive to suggest the CDF will get involved with something like this. If I wrote them, my letter would be forwarded to my lame-duck bishop where it would die. At the very most I would receive a petulant letter (like I did regarding my concern about the horde of EMsHC that invade our sanctuary at the kiss of peace) from my bishop telling me in no uncertain terms that he knows what he is doing and to back-off.

There is no recourse at this point, and that’s something that sucks about the Church from time to time.

P.S. So that you know, the demand that I stand is not a “liturgical abuse.” It’s certainly wrong, it certainly contravenes the GIRM, but it’s not a “liturgical abuse.” That phrase is over-used and incorrectly used which cheapens it.

I don’t know if you realize just what a condescending tone you are using. If you don’t agree with what I am posting, there is no need to talk down in this way.

I’m trying to figure out why you made this post in the first place if you knew all the answers.

My understanding of the process is that, as you said, it goes to the local ordinary. But the CDW (not CDF), keeps a copy. However, the bishop’s resignation has been accepted. This means someone will have been appointed Episcopal Vicar, no? Who would that be?

When two bishops died in Michigan, each had someone who handled their case load. In one instance, it was Cardinal Maida who did this, I believe when Bishop Uetner died. In another instance, a priest took over for one who died within the last couple of years or so, until a permanent replacement was found.

With this in mind, it may be THE opportunity to get heard by someone else.

But then again, I don’t think you much care to bother at this level because you don’t feel it is liturgical abuse. Hey, you don’t even want to bother the parochial vicar when he comes to say Holy Mass. It’s not significant enough to bring it to his attention, so you bring it here to tell the world, get us up in arms and for what? To do nothing other than to say “the Church sucks at times”? Yet you won’t say it to the face of the celebrant when he comes to visit.

Right. Now I see.

The whole scenario is completey outrageous in my mind, that servers would be coerced into complying with the whims of a layperson, in direct contradiction to the GIRM. In order to get her way, she can simply not schedule you if you don’t stand. Once the good altar servers are all gone, another parish falls completely into the hands of the pridefully disobedient.

Soldier on however you please

And, contrary to popular opinion, obedience need not take a back seat to charity.

This site has it broken down nicely, chock full-o-references. This page does list it as an abuse, albeit one that is illicit, not making the Mass invalid.

ourladyswarriors.org/articles/badliturgy.htm

See sections 3, 4 and 5, specifically section 5.11.

 

[Lux_et_veritas]

AltarMan:

I learned late last week that my pastor got sacked. He’ll be replaced but we have no idea when. Thankfully we have a nice parochial vicar and other priests to pick-up the slack.

The lady who is in charge of altar servers called me last night to tell me the person I trained would not be allowed to serve Mass at our parish. She said he “chose not to serve because he insists on kneeling throughout the Eucharistic Prayer.” During our conversation she apparently “found out” (she knew) that I kneel as well so I was given the same advice – that I had chosen not to serve any longer at my parish because I insisted on kneeling during the EP. When I told her others knelt as well she got flustered.

Thankfully 15 minutes later she called back and reversed herself, after having phoned the other “kneelers.” With my bishop a lame duck (his resignation has been accepted by the Pope), no pastor and a parochial vicar who is new and dosen’t need to experience combat, how do I go about dealing with this whack-job? I am tired of her treating us like infants (she teaches grade school.) I am also upset at her corrupting altar servers with her “vision.”

Any advice would be appreciated.

Since you did ask for advice, I’ll repeat my first piece of advise with a little more clarity.

The next time a priest, any priest comes to celebrate Holy Mass, take him aside and say, (with the proper name of the woman, of course).

“Father, may I talk to you for a moment? I cannot in good conscience, follow a directive given to me by Mrs. Pridefully Disobedient, whom I’m sure intends well, but may be misinformed. She is ordering the altar servers to stand during the Consecration, when we are very capable of kneeling and there is plenty of space to kneel. She claims to have permission from bishop so-and-so, but my understanding of the GIRM is that permission is only granted on an occassional basis. I would like to kneel with the congregation out of respect for the Eucharst and in obedience to the GIRM. Will you please help clear up this issue between the altar servers and Mrs. Pridefully Disobedient”.

A few posts up you were asking if you should just throw in the towel. That sounds like quitting to me - defeat. Before you go on and obey the disobedient, or throw in the towel, why not try something similar to what I have given you above. It is tactful, it is not condescending, and it even gives her the benefit of the doubt that her intentions are in the right place.

You just never know … the priest may gently admonish and correct this woman and everybody goes home happy. He may even tell you to call him if there are any further issues in this regard. Until you talk to him you simply cannot judge his response, especially if you talk in a manner that is diplomatic and not condescending. The worst thing that can happen is that he can blow you off. But, since you were wondering whether to throw in the towel, I don’t think you have anything to lose and everything to gain.

 

[Walking_Home]

Mr. AlterMan,

Write to the appropriate dept. at the Vatican. It would not be a bad idea to write to Pope Benedict also. Maybe somehow, the right people up there will take notice.

Do not give up. People like these need to be stopped from getting their way.

 

[AltarMan]

Lux_et_veritas:

Since you did ask for advice, I’ll repeat my first piece of advise with a little more clarity.

The next time a priest, any priest comes to celebrate Holy Mass, take him aside and say, (with the proper name of the woman, of course).

“Father, may I talk to you for a moment? I cannot in good conscience, follow a directive given to me by Mrs. Pridefully Disobedient, whom I’m sure intends well, but may be misinformed. She is ordering the altar servers to stand during the Consecration, when we are very capable of kneeling and there is plenty of space to kneel. She claims to have permission from bishop so-and-so, but my understanding of the GIRM is that permission is only granted on an occassional basis. I would like to kneel with the congregation out of respect for the Eucharst and in obedience to the GIRM. Will you please help clear up this issue between the altar servers and Mrs. Pridefully Disobedient”.

A few posts up you were asking if you should just throw in the towel. That sounds like quitting to me - defeat. Before you go on and obey the disobedient, or throw in the towel, why not try something similar to what I have given you above. It is tactful, it is not condescending, and it even gives her the benefit of the doubt that her intentions are in the right place.

You just never know … the priest may gently admonish and correct this woman and everybody goes home happy. He may even tell you to call him if there are any further issues in this regard. Until you talk to him you simply cannot judge his response, especially if you talk in a manner that is diplomatic and not condescending. The worst thing that can happen is that he can blow you off. But, since you were wondering whether to throw in the towel, I don’t think you have anything to lose and everything to gain.

You don’t seem to understand the logistics. In order to even serve, I am CERTAIN she will ask if I plan to kneel. If I say yes, I simply won’t be scheduled any longer. They’ll be no chance to ask any priest anything prior to serving. That will be the end.

I had thought about simply lying and telling her what she wants to hear and then still do the right thing by kneeling, but as someone else pointed out, that’s very poor form. It’s very appealing though because I would at least still be in the rotation when the new pastor and bishop are named, but it would be horribly sleazy to lie, even to a whack-job like this “womyn.”

 

[paramedicgirl]

AltarMan:

You don’t seem to understand the logistics. In order to even serve, I am CERTAIN she will ask if I plan to kneel. If I say yes, I simply won’t be scheduled any longer. They’ll be no chance to ask any priest anything prior to serving. That will be the end.

I had thought about simply lying and telling her what she wants to hear and then still do the right thing by kneeling, but as someone else pointed out, that’s very poor form. ** It’s very appealing though because I would at least still be in the rotation when the new pastor and bishop are named, but it would be horribly sleazy to lie, even to a whack-job like this “womyn**.”

To me, there is a simple solution on how to remain on the list. Just tell her you are unavailable to serve for a while, and coincide that date with the arrival of the new pastor. Then take Lux_et_veritas advice and speak to the priest in the manner she outlined:
Father, may I talk to you for a moment? I cannot in good conscience, follow a directive given to me by Mrs. Pridefully Disobedient, whom I’m sure intends well, but may be misinformed. She is ordering the altar servers to stand during the Consecration, when we are very capable of kneeling and there is plenty of space to kneel. She claims to have permission from bishop so-and-so, but my understanding of the GIRM is that permission is only granted on an occassional basis. I would like to kneel with the congregation out of respect for the Eucharst and in obedience to the GIRM. Will you please help clear up this issue between the altar servers and Mrs. Pridefully Disobedient".

 

[Traditional_Ang]

AltarMan:

He was introduced to (and read) both the GIRM and RS while I was training him.

Sadly both documents are discounted around here by many as being “only guidelines” (that apparently can be altered locally as some see fit.) Obviously that’s not true, but it’s a fight none the less.

Our pastor becomes visibly angry if one attempts to discuss there sorts of matters with him – even if one make an appointment and is extremely charitable.

What I find chilling is how they cornered this young man as soon as he was on his own – they didn’t dare say anything when I was training him. In short, there people are sleazy and they are the reason that this sorta stuff continues.

I think all that’s possible is to do things right, even if that means being dismissed from the ministry. (I was dismissed some time ago for kneeling during the consecration. I was finally scheduled again, but that was under our old pastor. The current one could care less.)

In the end I can pray that we get a teriffic new bishop (it should happen in 4-6 months) and that we receive a pastor ASAP that is as nice as our parochial vicars.

AltarMan:

I don’t know if I could tolerate that situation. I can’t believe not doing the Lavabo and standing during the Canon of the Mass! These people know that you’re an orthodox influence, and then they’re trying to alienate and separate you from the rest of the Acolytes. That way, they can contain or even negate the influence.

If the pastor tolerates and supports this, I think you and your friend need a new parish. It’s very hard to bring any sort of orthodoxy if the parish priest doesn’t support it.

I know of only one instance where a reservsal was effected, and it involved a certain parish in Northorn California which had its liturgical abuses posted on a major Website by a poster named “Traditional Anglican” and then republished here by another poster - Some 20,000 people saw the story. Because of the scandal, it got to the Archbishop who decided he’d had enough and ordered the parish to stop the abuses.

“Traditional Anglican” had been a “Guest” at the parish and didn’t have to worry about working with the offenders in the sanctuary.

If you don’t want to do that, you can look for an orthodox parish in the area or for one of the ones doing Indult masses in your area:

starharbor.com/fr_martin/masslist.html for a list

Someone needs to remind your pastor and your Bishop that their jobs are to be shepherds of souls and that they’re failing badly and letting the wolves devour whom they will. It’s hard to do that charitably, but someone has to do that.

If you decide to leave and find a new home,I think you should shake the dust from my feet as soon as I found myself a new home. Just make sure you take your friend with you - There’s no reason he should suffer through that anymore.

My prayers are with you.

In Christ, Michael

 

[Traditional_Ang]

Walking_Home:

Mr. AlterMan,

Write to the appropriate dept. at the Vatican. It would not be a bad idea to write to Pope Benedict also. Maybe somehow, the right people up there will take notice.

Do not give up. People like these need to be stopped from getting their way.

The email address for His Holiness Pope Benedict XVI is:
benedictxvi@vatican.va
benedettoxvi@vatican.va

Send it to both addresses.

If you’re going to give it up, find a new orthodox parish where people live the faith and follow the GIRM.

In Christ, Michael