Corrupting Altar Servers?

[Lux_et_veritas]

ALL:

It is apparent by the “location” in AltarMan’s profile that he does not wish to disclose his parish, nor his state. Let’s honor that by not guessing and posting publicly if it becomes obvious to us.

While I asked where he was at early in the thread, it became clear to me that he did not wish to reveal it and I think it is only fair to leave that part alone.

You can always send him a PM

 

[Lux_et_veritas]

I’m sitting here and my mind keeps coming back to one thing:

There was unity, uniformity, and harmony with the GIRM, with regards to kneeling during consecration before this woman initiated a change. AltarMan sought an answer and was told, “the GIRM is just guidelines”.

I would be very interested to understand what her answers would be if she were asked, "Why did you ask the Bishop for this permission? " And, "What purpose does it serve? ( if it falls under “other good reasons” as I show a few posts back).

She has to have a reason and if that reason is personal preference, she is dead wrong to force these adults to stand when they should be kneeling (refering to AltarMan and the college student he was training).

**Disunity was sparked the moment she decided to circumvent the GIRM. What is bothering me, is that some are twisting this around to make it look like AltarMan is sparking the disunity and lack of uniformity. **

I’ll agree that AltarMan can be less than diplomatic in his approach based on what I seen in the initial post. That is a side issue.

**THE issue was initiated when a deviation was made without clear and obvious good reason. Furthermore, a total lack of charity on her part is displayed, if she truly is attempting to force people to stand, who want to kneel, when the GIRM states in the most simple terms that we should kneel. Why deny someone that act of reverence? It is something my mind cannot reconcile. What purpose does it serve for HER to cause this level of hard feelings. Where is her compassion towards people who want to show the Lord due reverence by kneeling. **

With regards to theological discussion on this issue, arguments made prior to the ruling, were applicable prior to the norm changes. Once those were made, there is no need to discuss which has more merit during consecration: Unity in the form of standing or unity in the form of kneeling.

I would like someone to show me any place where the universal norms call out standing during the consecration as opposed to kneeling. I don’t believe this to be a USCCB thing.

 

[AltarMan]

Lux_et_veritas:

And, I don’t buy that this woman would be “following her conscience” in forcing the altar servers to stand. SHE asked the bishop for permission, the bishop didn’t walk into St. Controversy here and say, “Mrs. X - please tell your servers to stand.”

Precisely, and I consider that an extremely sleazy thing to do. The more I think about it, from the little I heard, the Bishop in no way set a mandate for servers to stand. This is reinforced by the fact that 90%+ of the rest of the servers in our deanery do indeed kneel. He said (supposidly) that “he prefers they stand.”

 

[AltarMan]

ALTAR MAN:

1. Are any of the altar servers of ill health so as not to be able to kneel?
2. Is there adequate space in the sanctuary for all altar servers to kneel?
3. Are there too many people so as to prevent kneeling?
4. Is there any potentially obvious “good reason”? What answer have you been given by her as to why she wants to force standing?

---

1a.) One person claimed she could not kneel due to knee problems. She’s a non-issue as she has moved.

2a.) There is plenty of room. We don’t have kneelers, but we could in less than 5 minutes if anyone truly wanted/needed one.

3a.) Nope. Quite some time ago I served a Mass at my parish with 8 concelebrating priests. On that exceptional and extraordinary occasion I stood because it would have been a bit tight and it was the right thing to do per the Church.

4a.) “Uniform posture.” (Apparently with the priestly celebrant and not the other laymen kneeling in the pews.)

 

[AltarMan]

I should mention that several months ago I made it a quiet practice to kneel and give thanks after receiving communion and taking care of my server duties (before they resume.)

This “witness” has quietly had an unintended but profound impact on the number of people who choose kneel at my Mass after receiving communion. I am certain this infuriates her, but the local ordinary has no control over what posture a layman assumes after receiving communion…

 

[Lux_et_veritas]

AltarMan:

ALTAR MAN:

1. Are any of the altar servers of ill health so as not to be able to kneel?
2. Is there adequate space in the sanctuary for all altar servers to kneel?
3. Are there too many people so as to prevent kneeling?
4. Is there any potentially obvious “good reason”? What answer have you been given by her as to why she wants to force standing?

---

1a.) One person claimed she could not kneel due to knee problems. She’s a non-issue as she has moved.

2a.) There is plenty of room. We don’t have kneelers, but we could in less than 5 minutes if anyone truly wanted/needed one.

3a.) Nope. Quite some time ago I served a Mass at my parish with 8 concelebrating priests. On that exceptional and extraordinary occasion I stood because it would have been a bit tight and it was the right thing to do per the Church.

4a.) “Uniform posture.” (Apparently with the priestly celebrant and not the other laymen kneeling in the pews.)

This was precisely what I suspected. If all in the congregation were kneeling as directed in the GIRM, but the priest (who is directed to stand), the only one you are not in uniformity with would be the celebrant (thus, making it a logical conclusion to reach that this is what she meant). I would go so far as to quiz her, diplomatically or with gentleness, “with whom” the altar servers are in uniformity with if they stand and see if she says the Celebrant. (In her mind she may want to have anyone in the Sanctuary to stand for asthetic, which means eye-pleasing, reasons). This is not a “good reason” and undoubtedly would be debunked by even some of the more progressive priests.

Lay people are not on par with the priest. Some are trying to blend the roles so that they are not distinct (lay people and priest). This is just one more example of how they subtly attempt to blur the lines.

She may be well intentioned, but wrong. The Vatican allows, and even encourages, lay people to speak to a priest if he clearly violates the GIRM then to contact the Bishop if he does not alter his ways. Lets say that the priest uses lay people to convey the homily. It seems harmless, but it is clearly against the norms. Per RS a lay person has a right to lodge a formal complaint. Most people advise using prudence in talking to the priest first, followed by the Bishop after a reasonable time for correction.

How then, is it incorrect for one lay person to attempt to correct another lay person, even though she is in a position of authority? Isn’t the priest in the position of authority? Yet RS encourages us to aid in correcting problems.

 

[Lux_et_veritas]

AltarMan:

I should mention that several months ago I made it a quiet practice to kneel and give thanks after receiving communion and taking care of my server duties (before they resume.)

This “witness” has quietly had an unintended but profound impact on the number of people who choose kneel at my Mass after receiving communion. I am certain this infuriates her, but the local ordinary has no control over what posture a layman assumes after receiving communion…

Its funny how many (mostly progressives) would argue that you are causing a lack of uniformity and even though you have permission to kneel, you should follow the bulk of the congregation.

Now that is what I call nitpicky and overzealous application of the GIRM. That word uniformity gets on my nerves already because so many abuses and attempted abuses have been perpetrated in its name.

 

[AltarMan]

I wish I knew which options Jesus Christ wants me to follow:

1.) Continue to kneel and be precluded from the altar serving schedule.

2.) Stand but begin to kneel the moment my new pastor and bishop are in place. That way the could be true recourse if they had the nerve not to schedule me or others who knelt.

I had better send out some more “knee-mail” on this matter. Opps, should I do that while standing too? LOL!

 

[Lux_et_veritas]

AltarMan:

I wish I knew which options Jesus Christ wants me to follow:

1.) Continue to kneel and be precluded from the altar serving schedule.

2.) Stand but begin to kneel the moment my new pastor and bishop are in place. That way the could be true recourse if they had the nerve not to schedule me or others who knelt.

I had better send out some more “knee-mail” on this matter. Opps, should I do that while standing too? LOL!

This is what I mean about conscience. Your conscience is driven to choose between two competing sources: The GIRM provided by the Holy See and issued by the USCCB, or to a woman who does not seem to have a leg to stand on with regards to why she is doing this.

I do hope you will ask her nicely, who she wants the altar servers to be in uniformity with if they all stand? If there is only one server at a Mass, does she expect him to stand? And, if so, why? If it is to be uniform with the priest, that is scary.

 

[Lux_et_veritas]

AltarMan:

Precisely, and I consider that an extremely sleazy thing to do. The more I think about it, from the little I heard, the Bishop in no way set a mandate for servers to stand. This is reinforced by the fact that 90%+ of the rest of the servers in our deanery do indeed kneel. He said (supposidly) that “he prefers they stand.”

I meant to ask why the other 10% don’t kneel. Are there health issues? Or is it preferential.

We have an altar boy corp of 60 ranging in age from 8 on up to their 70’s and everything in between. I have never seen one, not even those elderly servers ever not kneel and it sometimes happens on cold marble floor. They don’t so much as flinch.

This is a Latin Novus Ordo ad orientem, during the elevation of the Chalice. The one lifting the chasuble is just very tall, but trust me, he is on his knees. I think you would be happy in my parish AltarMan.

It is reverential, respectful, humble, and stunningly beautiful - this display of adoration.

(Please Note: This uploaded content is no longer available.)

 

[Marian_Carroll]

Lux_et_veritas:

ALL:

It is apparent by the “location” in AltarMan’s profile that he does not wish to disclose his parish, nor his state. Let’s honor that by not guessing and posting publicly if it becomes obvious to us.

While I asked where he was at early in the thread, it became clear to me that he did not wish to reveal it and I think it is only fair to leave that part alone.

You can always send him a PM

**Moderator’s Note:
Please see:
forums.catholic-questions.org/showthread.php?t=17511
**

 

[AltarMan]

Lux_et_veritas:

This is what I mean about conscience. Your conscience is driven to choose between two competing sources: The GIRM provided by the Holy See and issued by the USCCB, or to a woman who does not seem to have a leg to stand on with regards to why she is doing this.

I do hope you will ask her nicely, who she wants the altar servers to be in uniformity with if they all stand? If there is only one server at a Mass, does she expect him to stand? And, if so, why? If it is to be uniform with the priest, that is scary.

No, it’s not that simple – I wish it were.

If I refuse to stand, I am being true to the Church, but I also become an instant “outsider” where it will be difficult for me to effect change once the new pastor and bishop are on board.

If I stand, I won’t be true to the Church, but I think Jesus would understant why. For me and my huge ego it would also be a much-needed mortification of sorts. The big benefit would be one the new pastor and bishop arrived. If she tried to preclude me from serving at that point, I’m sure all heck would break loose. Then again maybe it wouldn’t – the new pastor would likely just tell her to stand-down.

 

[AltarMan]

Lux_et_veritas:

I meant to ask why the other 10% don’t kneel. Are there health issues? Or is it preferential.

We have an altar boy corp of 60 ranging in age from 8 on up to their 70’s and everything in between. I have never seen one, not even those elderly servers ever not kneel and it sometimes happens on cold marble floor. They don’t so much as flinch.

This is a Latin Novus Ordo ad orientem, during the elevation of the Chalice. The one lifting the chasuble is just very tall, but trust me, he is on his knees. I think you would be happy in my parish AltarMan.

The servers at another Catholic parish in my city do not kneel – when they actually have servers that is.

I kneel on porcelin tile. It’s really no big deal. When I did have a sore knee (from playing basketball) I simply wore a knee pad. I could do that all the time if I needed to. it would be as comfortable as kneeling on a padded pew.

 

[AltarMan]

UPDATE II:

We just had our annual altar server meeting (5 servers showed-up.) We were told that the bishop was asked, and that he has directed us to stand during the EP.

I asked how this could be, given GIRM #42, the USCCB’s underscoring of GIRM #42: usccb.org/liturgy/innews/092002.shtml and the fact that all the other servers in our deanery continue to kneel. She wasn’t sure but said we all had to be “flexible.”

I told her I would only comply with this new notion if our bishop put it in writing. She said he’s a busy man but that she would look into it. Given that the Pope has accepted his resignation it appears he might only have a few months left, so I really don’t know what will happen.

I do know that if the letter comes, that I will re-visit this issue as soon as our new bishop has settled-in.

Thank you for your prayers – they are obviously working.

 

[Lux_et_veritas]

UPDATE II:

We just had our annual altar server meeting (5 servers showed-up.) We were told that the bishop was asked, and that he has directed us to stand during the EP.

I asked how this could be, given GIRM #42, the USCCB’s underscoring of GIRM #42: usccb.org/liturgy/innews/092002.shtml and the fact that all the other servers in our deanery continue to kneel. She wasn’t sure but said we all had to be “flexible.”

I told her I would only comply with this new notion if our bishop put it in writing. She said he’s a busy man but that she would look into it. Given that the Pope has accepted his resignation it appears he might only have a few months left, so I really don’t know what will happen.

I do know that if the letter comes, that I will re-visit this issue as soon as our new bishop has settled-in.

Thank you for your prayers – they are obviously working.

You done good, Altar Man. I’ll keep you in my prayers, as well as the woman. I truly do not believe the Bishop was consulted at all. I only wish you could have asked her once again what reason under “other good reasons” it was that compelled her to “ask” him in the first place, since it does not meet the other criteria. If she replied, “uniformity” I would have asked who the altar servers are not uniform with if they are kneeling like the rest of the congregation. If she were to reply that you are not uniform with the priest in the Sanctuary, then that would have told us a lot about this unfortunate scenario.

If you find an opportunity to take her down that path of dialogue - diplomatically and charitably, see where it leads. Maybe by the grace of God you may find just the right words to say should she come back with the answer I suspect. Getting to the absolute root of what is driving her to do this, may offer the key to unlocking this whole thing.

 

[AltarMan]

Lux_et_veritas:

You done good, Altar Man. I’ll keep you in my prayers, as well as the woman. I truly do not believe the Bishop was consulted at all. I only wish you could have asked her once again what reason under “other good reasons” it was that compelled her to “ask” him in the first place, since it does not meet the other criteria. If she replied, “uniformity” I would have asked who the altar servers are not uniform with if they are kneeling like the rest of the congregation. If she were to reply that you are not uniform with the priest in the Sanctuary, then that would have told us a lot about this unfortunate scenario.

If you find an opportunity to take her down that path of dialogue - diplomatically and charitably, see where it leads. Maybe by the grace of God you may find just the right words to say should she come back with the answer I suspect. Getting to the absolute root of what is driving her to do this, may offer the key to unlocking this whole thing.

There is no question that her “reason” is uniformity in posture with everyone in the sanctuary – a notion that is likely pushed hard by the nun who heads our diocesan “Office of Divine Worship.”

The problem is that only the priestly celebrant and concelebrants stand in* Persona Christi* at the altar, and to blur that fact in any way has some profoundly serious theological impacts to the Mass. In brief, it’s completely unacceptable.

If they are indeed trying to blur that distinction on purpose, they can expect WWIII (or unemployment) when the new Bishop arrives…

 

[TableServant]

If uniformity of posture is her desire, I’d ask if you have a number of deacons in your diocese. The new GIRM specifies the posture for the deacon as kneeling “from the epiclesis to the elevation of the chalice”. Now, there have been considerations made for age/physical disability, but the deacon is normally to kneel.

Now, that doesn’t mean that the servers are only to kneel while the deacon does, but that they are to kneel for the entire time that the congregation kneels. It would just look silly, though, if the deacon were kneeling and the servers were standing.

Just my $.02.

 

[AltarMan]

TableServant:

If uniformity of posture is her desire, I’d ask if you have a number of deacons in your diocese. The new GIRM specifies the posture for the deacon as kneeling “from the epiclesis to the elevation of the chalice”. Now, there have been considerations made for age/physical disability, but the deacon is normally to kneel.

Now, that doesn’t mean that the servers are only to kneel while the deacon does, but that they are to kneel for the entire time that the congregation kneels. It would just look silly, though, if the deacon were kneeling and the servers were standing.

Just my $.02.

We covered that as well…

 

[Lux_et_veritas]

Wow, just read something very applicable to our discussion earlier in this thread pertaining to charity and dealing with these kinds of issues. It comes from the website of a very good, orthodox young priest in the Detroit area b y thame of Fr. Paul Ward.

Some people adhere to a false interpretation of “Charity” and “unity.” They interpret it at a completely political level: get along, try to climb to a position of influence, and then - only then - address the abuses you see.

The problem is that in the mean time, one is creating habits, perhaps for years, of sacrificing one’s principles. Then such a habit is not easily overcome when one is there where one hoped to climb. Especially at the height, where pressures, stresses and tensions are most unpleasant, if one hasn’t acquired the virtue of fortitude in adhering to one’s principles, how in the world should one hope to suddenly “turn on the virtue switch” and have fidelity come out?

Furthermore, the price of redemption is one: sacrifice. When we are attacked and calumniated, even by our own pastors; when we are ridiculed even by priests; when we are rejected even by bishops; when we are conspired against even by our own fellow parishioners, dissenting parishioners at that; then we take upon our selves the image of Christ:

This goes right along with what my pastor recently told me about “misplaced charity”.

Full article: fatherpaul.org/Answers%20to%20Questions/CorrectingPastors.htm

Homepage for Fr. Paul: fatherpaul.org/

 

[AltarMan]

Lux_et_veritas:

Wow, just read something very applicable to our discussion earlier in this thread pertaining to charity and dealing with these kinds of issues. It comes from the website of a very good, orthodox young priest in the Detroit area b y thame of Fr. Paul Ward.

Some people adhere to a false interpretation of “Charity” and “unity.” They interpret it at a completely political level: get along, try to climb to a position of influence, and then - only then - address the abuses you see.

The problem is that in the mean time, one is creating habits, perhaps for years, of sacrificing one’s principles. Then such a habit is not easily overcome when one is there where one hoped to climb. Especially at the height, where pressures, stresses and tensions are most unpleasant, if one hasn’t acquired the virtue of fortitude in adhering to one’s principles, how in the world should one hope to suddenly “turn on the virtue switch” and have fidelity come out?

Furthermore, the price of redemption is one: sacrifice. When we are attacked and calumniated, even by our own pastors; when we are ridiculed even by priests; when we are rejected even by bishops; when we are conspired against even by our own fellow parishioners, dissenting parishioners at that; then we take upon our selves the image of Christ:

This goes right along with what my pastor recently told me about “misplaced charity”.

Full article: fatherpaul.org/Answers%20to%20Questions/CorrectingPastors.htm

Homepage for Fr. Paul: fatherpaul.org/

Thank you for your help. Two things made me resolve to follow the Church and not local politics.

First, the comments you sent me from the Rev. Fr. Perrone. He came across on EWTN as an extremely orthodox, faithful and intellegent priest so his comments really made an impression.

Second this quote from the Pope that someone here had as part of their signature:

“A man of conscience is one who never acquires tolerance, well-being, success, public standing, and approval on the part of prevailing opinion, at the expense of truth.” – Pope Benedict XVI

The two really prepared me for the ultimate meeting.