cosmetic breast implants

[Debora123]

And its obvious that fat and ugly people are often discriminated against because of their appearance.

Lol, you put that so bluntly it made me chuckle.

Anyway, I don’t think it’s a black and white issue when it comes to cosmetic plastic surgery. I don’t think we can label breast implants as always a sin, but I don’t think we can label it as never a sin either. It all depends on the woman’s intentions, the risks she’s taking, the money issue, etc etc.

If a woman who already has decent size breasts gets ridiculously large implants with the full and soul intention of being stared at by everyone who walks by and being perceived as “the girl with the huge boobs,” then yeah, I think it would be a sin because it’s not healthy for her. It’s not healthy for her as a human being with dignity to want to be perceived in that way, and it’s not a good enough reason to go under the knife and put your body through all the trauma and risk that comes with getting implants.

However, if it was just a regular girl with small breasts who wanted to get implants in order to make her body look more proportional and more attractive, I think it’s perfectly fine. There’s nothing wrong with wanting to look attractive and more appealing to the opposite sex. Wanting to look attractive is not vanity.

Either way, I think this is not a black and white issue, and I think it best to leave the judging to God.

 

[CarbonCrux]

I’m not sure if anyone has already linked to this article, but just in case: ncregister.com/site/print_article/20641/

It basically outlines Pope John Paul II and Pope Pius XII positions’ on cosmetic surgery. As one might expect, it ultimately comes down to intent. Pope Pius XII warns that it is sinful to undergo cosmetic surgery for “mere vanity, caprice or fashion”. However, this is a separate motivation from increasing aesthetic beauty or correcting a defect. To quote from the article;

“He referred to what appears to be the only formal and lengthy papal statement on the subject, given by Pope Pius XII to Italian cosmetic surgeons just days before he died in 1958. Pius struck a largely positive note and stressed that the morality of cosmetic surgery “depends on the specific circumstances of each case” but that “many faces of God’s children, whom misfortune has refused them the gift to reflect their beauty, regain their lost smile by your science and your art!””

Furthermore, a priest interviewed for the article added that, “I would say that in principle the Catholic Church has a positive view of cosmetic surgery if its aim is to improve the beauty of people because beauty is a good,”

Based on my interpretation of this article, I would say that the Catholic Church is fine with cosmetic enhancements which increase the good of beauty. In the case of breast augmentation, a woman might look at herself in the mirror and say, ‘I’m generally healthy, and I take good care of myself and generally like myself, but if my breasts were slightly larger, I would be more proportional’.

Of course, any reasons besides the pursuit of beauty as a good (trying to attract a mate by becoming more sexy, vanity, etc.) would be out.

 

[2angels]

Risk factor? Risk of what? I’m also at a loss on how exactly you define “intent”.

The intent in grooming and clothing customs is to show self-respect and respect for the community.

The intent of cosmetic breast implants is to provoke a sexual response from the community and to channel that attention into a hoped-for sense of esteem.

If it’s all the same, are you advocating everyone be bald? Isn’t that the ony way to remove the intent of caring for our hair to make us look nice to ourselves and others?

Should we wear sackcloth?

What is the “intent” of wearing deodorant? To not appear offensive to the standards of our community, is it not? Which is also the intent of reasonable grooming, no?

I guess I just disagree. Intending to look like a decent, self-respecting man for work and friends will never be in the same box to me as intending to sexually provoke a response with big fake breasts.

One is about respect. The other is about sexual attention. One’s a square peg, the other a round hole.

But I accept your disagreement, my friend,
RMN

These latest posts are finally “getting it.” The “Intent” of a breast augmentation determines the morality of it. Morality is determined based on whether the intention of the woman is to provoke a sexual response OR the intention is for self-esteem to look reasonably proportional (correcting unproportionality for various reasons such as masectomy, results from breast feeding, or simply being born unproportional). Although maybe hard for men to understand, men need to understand many women have other intentions beyond trying to “sexually provoke a response with big fake breasts.”

 

[AngryAtheist8]

I’m not sure if anyone has already linked to this article, but just in case: ncregister.com/site/print_article/20641/

It basically outlines Pope John Paul II and Pope Pius XII positions’ on cosmetic surgery. As one might expect, it ultimately comes down to intent. Pope Pius XII warns that it is sinful to undergo cosmetic surgery for “mere vanity, caprice or fashion”. However, this is a separate motivation from increasing aesthetic beauty or correcting a defect. To quote from the article;

“He referred to what appears to be the only formal and lengthy papal statement on the subject, given by Pope Pius XII to Italian cosmetic surgeons just days before he died in 1958. Pius struck a largely positive note and stressed that the morality of cosmetic surgery “depends on the specific circumstances of each case” but that “many faces of God’s children, whom misfortune has refused them the gift to reflect their beauty, regain their lost smile by your science and your art!””

Furthermore, a priest interviewed for the article added that, “I would say that in principle the Catholic Church has a positive view of cosmetic surgery if its aim is to improve the beauty of people because beauty is a good,”

Based on my interpretation of this article, I would say that the Catholic Church is fine with cosmetic enhancements which increase the good of beauty. In the case of breast augmentation, a woman might look at herself in the mirror and say, ‘I’m generally healthy, and I take good care of myself and generally like myself, but if my breasts were slightly larger, I would be more proportional’.

Of course, any reasons besides the pursuit of beauty as a good (trying to attract a mate by becoming more sexy, vanity, etc.) would be out.

I honestly think that there are conservative elements within the the Church that would outright ban plastic surgery if they could, and if I had to guess, I would assume that Pope Bennedict is sympathetic to such groups (after all, look how the Pope seems to be bending over backwards to make peace with ultra-conservative groups).

 

[Rkdajr]

Hm let’s see…

Mastectomy for reasons other than breast cancer - “Inconceivable and immoral, what are you thinking?”
Breast Augmentation for reasons other than birth defect, etc. - “Sure, it’s not hurting anybody, she just wants to look good.”

Both surgeries involve risks by the way.

It’s making me think twice about what the people on my mastectomy thread have told me and on here. I don’t care what’s been said; a female seeking breast augmentation expect for the obvious reasons has more important problems to deal with like, oh I don’t know…maybe her salvation, which I thought was what we Catholics were supposed to be striving for. She’s not going to die or commit suicide if she doesn’t get surgery is she? The majority of people on this thread have given good answers but I’m still getting mixed messages here from some Catholics, so from now on I’m just going to stick with my wise pastor on this issue.

 

[CarbonCrux]

Hm let’s see…

Mastectomy for reasons other than breast cancer - “Inconceivable and immoral, what are you thinking?”
Breast Augmentation for reasons other than birth defect, etc. - “Sure, it’s not hurting anybody, she just wants to look good.”

An unnecessary mastectomy would be a direct attack on the good of health and life, whereas cosmetic implants would be an augmentation of the good of beauty. Directly attacking health is always morally wrong. Aiding beauty is not.

Both surgeries involve risks by the way.

As does working out, but we still advise the overweight person to do that, don’t we?

I don’t care what’s been said; a female seeking breast augmentation expect for the obvious reasons has more important problems to deal with like, oh I don’t know…maybe her salvation, which I thought was what we Catholics were supposed to be striving for. She’s not going to die or commit suicide if she doesn’t get surgery is she?

People pursue their salvation through their participation in the goods, and each in their particular way. A violinist focuses on the good of skillful performance, while a priest focuses on the good of religion. I would say that if done with the proper intent, at the proper time and in the proper amount, getting cosmetic breast implants could be considered a move toward the good of beauty, specifically symmetry and proportion, which are both timeless aesthetic standards.
I’m sure that there are meaningful arguments against my position, and I’ll be happy to discuss them, but please don’t offhandedly belittle women considering this operation.

 

[Rkdajr]

An unnecessary mastectomy would be a direct attack on the good of health and life, whereas cosmetic implants would be an augmentation of the good of beauty. Directly attacking health is always morally wrong. Aiding beauty is not.

As does working out, but we still advise the overweight person to do that, don’t we?

People pursue their salvation through their participation in the goods, and each in their particular way. A violinist focuses on the good of skillful performance, while a priest focuses on the good of religion. I would say that if done with the proper intent, at the proper time and in the proper amount, getting cosmetic breast implants could be considered a move toward the good of beauty, specifically symmetry and proportion, which are both timeless aesthetic standards.
I’m sure that there are meaningful arguments against my position, and I’ll be happy to discuss them, but please don’t offhandedly belittle women considering this operation.

Yeahh sorry about that last post, my meds have been whacky lately and I wasn’t able to edit my post the morning after, plus I always get fired up on this issue for some reason. I just can’t help but feel that the “good of beauty” to me = vanity or, attracting a husband. How is it good of beauty when it could lead to danger of lust for others, like when we talk about immodest dress? By the way I thought we advised overweight people to lose weight for their health. Why isn’t a breast augmentation an attack on health? It seems like an unnecessary risk when you think about it…

I think I get fired up because I hate seeing women, especially young, fall into the “beauty” trap or feel secretly ashamed especially when my very own Catholic friends do it, but if it’s really truly more than that then it seems okay. Like sometimes I think if I had ears of disproportionate size or other body part and there was surgery for those things, then I would most likely consider it. Anyways, don’t pay attention to me ladies, didn’t mean to belittle any of you in this situation, so very sorry!: angel1:

 

[AngryAtheist8]

Yeahh sorry about that last post, my meds have been whacky lately and I wasn’t able to edit my post the morning after, plus I always get fired up on this issue for some reason. I just can’t help but feel that the “good of beauty” to me = vanity or, attracting a husband. How is it good of beauty when it could lead to danger of lust for others, like when we talk about immodest dress?:

Should moral women be ugly and/or physically unattractive then?

It has often seemed to me that prudes have an even more unhealthy and destructive attitude towards sex than hedonists (at least when in positions of power).

 

[Nate13]

Should moral women be ugly and/or physically unattractive then?

It has often seemed to me that prudes have an even more unhealthy and destructive attitude towards sex than hedonists (at least when in positions of power).

Are you saying God has condemned less attractive women to have bad sex lives then haha? I don’t think being attractive is a prerequisite for having a good healthy sex life

 

[AngryAtheist8]

Are you saying God has condemned less attractive women to have bad sex lives then haha? I don’t think being attractive is a prerequisite for having a good healthy sex life

I’m saying that there is a (popular) idea among many Christians, Muslims, and other religious people, that an attractive/sexy woman is by nature not a devout/moral woman.

I reject this idea.

Which would seem to imply (if not outright state) that a Pretty Face=An Ugly Soul.

I am a rather plain man myself, but I don’t think that makes me a better person in any way. Frankly I think the opposite is true.

The way ugly people are treated (badly for the most part) often makes them hateful and bitter.

 

[tafan]

AngryAethiest:

I’m saying that there is a (popular) idea among many Christians, Muslims, and other religious people, that an attractive/sexy woman is by nature not a devout/moral woman.

This is absurd, at least for Catholics and likely Christians in general. I have never seen this idea expressed explicitly or implicitly by any Catholic or Protestant that I have ever been around. I can’t speak for Muslims.

You are allowing your judgement to be colored or distorted by something; because you are claiming something for which there is absolutely no evidence.

 

[Rkdajr]

Should moral women be ugly and/or physically unattractive then?

That’s not what I meant, this is about the issue being discussed, not about things like makeup/dressing up, etc. What I am saying about the ‘good of beauty’ is when does it become too extreme, where even Catholics are for it instead of looking for another solution. Why is it better to say ‘yes, go ahead and get surgery, it’s for the good of beauty’ than “The Lord looks at your heart” or something like that?

 

[AngryAtheist8]

This is absurd, at least for Catholics and likely Christians in general. I have never seen this idea expressed explicitly or implicitly by any Catholic or Protestant that I have ever been around. .

Then you either haven’t been paying attention or you have been very isolated from the culture at large.

I cannot count the number of times I have come across conservative Catholics and conservative Protestants condemning women for doing something (often times just wearing skimpy clothing) to *incite lust *in men.

Whereas Islam takes it to a whole other level of crazy.
Here’s a story about would-be Muslim theocrats trying to impose Saudi Arabian style control of women’s dress (for the supposed protection of delicate male eyes) in Egypt now that their forming a new government: jpost.com/MiddleEast/Article.aspx?id=215050

The worst part of it is, these violent thugs will probably succeed.

So my main point is, according to all these groups:
Being a sexy woman=being a bad woman.

Moreover they all reserve the right to decide for themselves just what sexy is.

 

[AngryAtheist8]

Hm let’s see…

Mastectomy for reasons other than breast cancer - “Inconceivable and immoral, what are you thinking?”
Breast Augmentation for reasons other than birth defect, etc. - “Sure, it’s not hurting anybody, she just wants to look good.”

Both surgeries involve risks by the way.

It’s making me think twice about what the people on my mastectomy thread have told me and on here. I don’t care what’s been said; a female seeking breast augmentation expect for the obvious reasons **has more important problems to deal with like, oh I don’t know…maybe her salvation, which I thought was what we Catholics were supposed to be striving for. **She’s not going to die or commit suicide if she doesn’t get surgery is she? The majority of people on this thread have given good answers but I’m still getting mixed messages here from some Catholics, so from now on I’m just going to stick with my wise pastor on this issue.

You can use that as an argument for denying anything and everything.

Just because something isn’t the most important doesn’t mean its not important at all.

 

[Christie66]

Before we burden women with our judgements. Let us first consider our own vanity. I would be willing to bet that everyone here is NOT wearing satclothe, our heads are uncovered, we wear makeup, hair gel, shoes, and even our ideas could be considered proud and and self elevating. Women are very burdened and always have been by keeping up with societies acceptable appearances. If a women wants to be more pleasing to her husband that is proof of her love for him and their marriage. Women by nature are giving creatures. Don’t judge us for being vain if we want to be pleasing to look at. We also will make our homes, children, gardens, car, tables, food, etc pleasing to look at. Please don’t judge our nature. God too blesses us with a world that is pleasing to look at but we will not let God do things on his own. We till land, we plant flowers, we cook food and I know that this is very pleasing to HIM who created us. So please dont think you are doing us a favor by granting us your permission for breast implants because we have cancer. If our modern day Cateciam has nothing to say on the morality of it, maybe we should not judge.

 

[Rkdajr]

You can use that as an argument for denying anything and everything.

Just because something isn’t the most important doesn’t mean its not important at all.

Very true, I always forget that. Although, sometimes things are placed higher than they should be in importance where it doesn’t look spirituality plays a part in it at all. (Just a note, that post was made at an unlikely time so women, don’t take my harsh words to heart.)

Before we burden women with our judgements. Let us first consider our own vanity.

Okay some of you guys have you been using exaggerations of the first claim or bringing up things that were already deemed acceptable in response to this whole thing…but it doesn’t help in uncovering the morality of the issue. You are right in saying we shouldn’t judge, but then where do we draw the line at what we should say it’s okay or wonder “hm, is this really necessary?” That’s what I’m trying to figure out, not judge. Just like I’ve been questioning before, why is it I’m getting two different ideas from the Church that say, “be modest”, and “it’s okay to have (serious) surgery to make you more attractive [or whatever reason].” Again, this isn’t makeup or dressing up.

 

[YourAverageJoe]

browning your hair, wearing make-up, losing wieght, non surgery changes for the most part does not cause a person to lust at you… big boobs do…

many men already struggle with pornography, adultry. why would anybody aid this problem by changing the bra size up…

scripture does say do not do anything that may cause a brother to fall…

my two cents
in Christ

 

[AngryAtheist8]

Before we burden women with our judgements. Let us first consider our own vanity. I would be willing to bet that everyone here is NOT wearing satclothe, our heads are uncovered, we wear makeup, hair gel, shoes, and even our ideas could be considered proud and and self elevating. Women are very burdened and always have been by keeping up with societies acceptable appearances. If a women wants to be more pleasing to her husband that is proof of her love for him and their marriage. Women by nature are giving creatures. Don’t judge us for being vain if we want to be pleasing to look at. We also will make our homes, children, gardens, car, tables, food, etc pleasing to look at. Please don’t judge our nature. God too blesses us with a world that is pleasing to look at but we will not let God do things on his own. We till land, we plant flowers, we cook food and I know that this is very pleasing to HIM who created us. So please dont think you are doing us a favor by granting us your permission for breast implants because we have cancer. If our modern day Cateciam has nothing to say on the morality of it, maybe we should not judge.

But Christie the whole purpose of this forum (as near as I can tell) is to discuss the morality and Catholicity of anything and everything.

Making judgments is an inescapable part of that.

 

[AngryAtheist8]

browning your hair, wearing make-up, losing wieght, non surgery changes for the most part does not cause a person to lust at you… big boobs do…

many men already struggle with pornography, adultry. why would anybody aid this problem by changing the bra size up…

scripture does say do not do anything that may cause a brother to fall…

my two cents
in Christ

Some women have naturally large breasts.
Should they be penalized or stigmatized because of men’s lust?

Besides lust (sexual desire, arousal, etc.) is perfectly natural, normal, and healthy. Without lust (especially male lust) the human race would have died out a long time ago.

I am a heterosexual male who will admit without shame that I like big breasts.
Is that the only (or even most important) factor in what attracts me to a woman?

No, but it is a factor and I don’t think there should be any shame in that:shrug:

I think that those obsessed with others modesty (such as Ultra-Orthodox Jews, Muslims practicing Sharia, Christian fundamentalists, etc.) do far more to damage to relations between men and women, make sex into something exploitative, and generally spread human misery than the most shameless hedonists (at least when these prudes have any power).

 

[Debora123]

Some women have naturally large breasts.
Should they be penalized or stigmatized because of men’s lust?

Besides lust (sexual desire, arousal, etc.) is perfectly natural, normal, and healthy. Without lust (especially male lust) the human race would have died out a long time ago.

I am a heterosexual male who will admit without shame that I like big breasts.
Is that the only (or even most important) factor in what attracts me to a woman?

No, but it is a factor and I don’t think there should be any shame in that:shrug:

I think that those obsessed with others modesty (such as Ultra-Orthodox Jews, Muslims practicing Sharia, Christian fundamentalists, etc.) do far more to damage to relations between men and women, make sex into something exploitative, and generally spread human misery than the most shameless hedonists (at least when these prudes have any power).

The reason you and other atheists and non-christians don’t understand the Catholic definition of the word lust is because it gets used very loosely/incorrectly around here (probably because even most Catholics here don’t understand it very well themselves). I see this misrepresentation ALL the time around here and it is a huge pet peeve of mine.

Lust does NOT mean sexual attraction/sexual desire.

As much as some Catholics around here make it sound like it does, it does NOT. And they should be very careful in using that word.