Cosmic Justice?

[tonyrey]

One of the main objections to belief in God is that there is so much injustice in the world. Yet that presupposes belief in justice. What is the basis of justice in a Godless universe? There isn’t any because there is no reason for anything! Nothing has any ultimate value, purpose or meaning if everything is due to blind physical necessity. It doesn’t make sense to believe in rights or what we should have. No one deserves anything!

Justice implies that we should get what we deserve. This belief has existed from the dawn of human history. Even the sophisticated Greeks believed in Nemesis and the doctrine of Karma in India dates from ancient beliefs. Even in our secular society many people believe in “comeuppance” and say "What goes around comes around ". Even small children have a sense of fairness without having been told: “Why is his piece of cake bigger than mine?”

It can be proved logically that justice is fact not fiction. It is not a human invention but a set of truths about life. The more we have the more we want. The more we want the more frustrated we become. The more selfish we are the more we alienate others. The more we alienate others the more isolated we become. The more isolated we become the more miserable we are. And so it is with every vice and deadly sin…

It is also true about virtue. When we care about others we forget ourselves. When we forget ourselves we are liberated from ourselves. Others cannot love us unless we are lovable in some way. And the only way to be lovable is to be a loving person. Just as natural laws determine how plants and animals grow so moral laws determine how we develop - either positively or negatively. They are rules for personal fulfilment.

All this is evidence that we live in a rational universe which cannot have an irrational origin. Justice is at the very heart of existence and it is yet one more proof of God’s infinite wisdom and love…

 

[Pax1972]

I needed to read this. Thanks for posting and God bless!

 

[AJ_Simon]

In principle, believing the Universe is Just isn’t such a bad thing. It only becomes potentially problematic when you start making predictions in your life on the assumption that “everybody gets what they deserve.”

Sometimes you get what you deserve. Sometimes you get way more than you deserve. And sometimes, you don’t get anything close to what you deserve. If that’s not enough injustice for you, consider that whether you wind up in first category, the second, or the third, depends a great deal on the state of your bank account at any given moment, which, on a global scale, depends greatly on which patch of dirt you began your life on.

I don’t mean to ruin anyone’s day, but I think it needs to be said.

 

[greylorn]

One of the main objections to belief in God is that there is so much injustice in the world. Yet that presupposes belief in justice. What is the basis of justice in a Godless universe? There isn’t any because there is no reason for anything! Nothing has any ultimate value, purpose or meaning if everything is due to blind physical necessity. It doesn’t make sense to believe in rights or what we should have. No one deserves anything!

Justice implies that we should get what we deserve. This belief has existed from the dawn of human history. Even the sophisticated Greeks believed in Nemesis and the doctrine of Karma in India dates from ancient beliefs. Even in our secular society many people believe in “comeuppance” and say "What goes around comes around ". Even small children have a sense of fairness without having been told: “Why is his piece of cake bigger than mine?”

It can be proved logically that justice is fact not fiction. It is not a human invention but a set of truths about life. The more we have the more we want. The more we want the more frustrated we become. The more selfish we are the more we alienate others. The more we alienate others the more isolated we become. The more isolated we become the more miserable we are. And so it is with every vice and deadly sin…

It is also true about virtue. When we care about others we forget ourselves. When we forget ourselves we are liberated from ourselves. Others cannot love us unless we are lovable in some way. And the only way to be lovable is to be a loving person. Just as natural laws determine how plants and animals grow so moral laws determine how we develop - either positively or negatively. They are rules for personal fulfilment.

All this is evidence that we live in a rational universe which cannot have an irrational origin. Justice is at the very heart of existence and it is yet one more proof of God’s infinite wisdom and love…

Tony,
Your thoughts are appealing, but I fail to see much connection between them and the real world. It is not fair.

Like lots of religious people you seem to believe that the fairness issue will be handled in heaven, for the “just,” whatever that means.

Christ himself made it a point to try, unsuccessfully, to disabuse mankind of our dumb belief in fairness, via parables such as, The Talents, and the Workers in the Vineyard.

Your intentions are fine with me, admirable in fact, but your logic isn’t logical. Looking at your OP as a whole, it seems to me that you are using one belief (in justice) to prove another belief (in a created universe).

As you know, I believe in a created universe. However, your emotion-based argument will only convince someone who already believes. You are preaching to the choir, friend.

 

[tobias]

What I do not understand is how anyone can not believe in a creator when there is any justice at all in the world.
Human beings strive for justice, even the most selfish person wants justice for self, but our nature usually causes injustice. It is uplifting to most when justice prevails, partly because we do not expect such a result. Most are agast at extreme injustice, but we tend to shrug our shoulders at everday injustice, it’s what we expect.
So my query is ‘How is it there is any justice at all, in this presumably Godless, amoral universe?’

 

[tonyrey]

What I do not understand is how anyone can not believe in a creator when there is any justice at all in the world.
Human beings strive for justice, even the most selfish person wants justice for self, but our nature usually causes injustice. It is uplifting to most when justice prevails, partly because we do not expect such a result. Most are agast at extreme injustice, but we tend to shrug our shoulders at everday injustice, it’s what we expect.
So my query is ‘How is it there is any justice at all, in this presumably Godless, amoral universe?’

That is one of the most formidable problems for those who reject God!

 

[tonyrey]

Tony,
Your thoughts are appealing, but I fail to see much connection between them and the real world. It is not fair.

“It is not fair.”! In what sense?

Like lots of religious people you seem to believe that the fairness issue will be handled in heaven, for the “just,” whatever that means.

My point is that there is fairness on earth at the psychological and physical levels. Obviously not all injustice can be remedied in this life. Killers often escape scotfree while their victims lose all the opportunities that life on this earth offers.

Christ himself made it a point to try, unsuccessfully, to disabuse mankind of our dumb belief in fairness, via parables such as, The Talents, and the Workers in the Vineyard.

Why unsuccessfully?

Your intentions are fine with me, admirable in fact, but your logic isn’t logical. Looking at your OP as a whole, it seems to me that you are using one belief (in justice) to prove another belief (in a created universe).

As you know, I believe in a created universe. However, your emotion-based argument will only convince someone who already believes. You are preaching to the choir, friend.

You haven’t refuted my logic, fellow philosopher!

 

[tonyrey]

Your intentions are fine with me, admirable in fact, but your logic isn’t logical. Looking at your OP as a whole, it seems to me that you are using one belief (in justice) to prove another belief (in a created universe).

I have given ample evidence that justice exists in our psychological and physical development. A lazy person deteriorates in both respects!

 

[tonyrey]

In principle, believing the Universe is Just isn’t such a bad thing. It only becomes potentially problematic when you start making predictions in your life on the assumption that “everybody gets what they deserve.”
Sometimes you get what you deserve. Sometimes you get way more than you deserve. And sometimes, you don’t get anything close to what you deserve. If that’s not enough injustice for you, consider that whether you wind up in first category, the second, or the third, depends a great deal on the state of your bank account at any given moment, which, on a global scale, depends greatly on which patch of dirt you began your life on.

I don’t mean to ruin anyone’s day, but I think it needs to be said.

I haven’t stated that everybody gets what they deserve in every respect. There is a vast amount of injustice in life but not at the psychological level. We reap what we sow… and if we sow nothing we get nothing as far as our personal development is concerned. Laziness takes us precisely nowhere!

 

[tonyrey]

I needed to read this. Thanks for posting and God bless!

A very warm welcome to the forum! Thanks for your kind comment. God bless…

 

[ThinkingSapien]

I have given ample evidence that justice exists in our psychological and physical development. A lazy person deteriorates in both respects!

People also can deteriorate in both respects from physical and mental diseases. There’s also genetic conditions (such as a genetic condition that causes a person to lack a protein that inhibits muscle growth) that can result in enhancements in some aspects of physical condition without the effort that the rest of us would need to invest to get similar results. Does this impact what you have said in any way.

What I do not understand is how anyone can not believe in a creator when there is any justice at all in the world. ’

If you want to know ask some non-believers why it is that they don’t believe. Most of the non-believers I know (including myself) were believers of some religion at some point in life until experiences or information eroded that belief away.

 

[tonyrey]

People also can deteriorate in both respects from physical and mental diseases. There’s also genetic conditions (such as a genetic condition that causes a person to lack a protein that inhibits muscle growth) that can result in enhancements in some aspects of physical condition without the effort that the rest of us would need to invest to get similar results. Does this impact what you have said in any way.

I don’t think so because it doesn’t affect our moral responsibility unless our insight, understanding and power of self-control are affected.

 

[ThinkingSapien]

I don’t think so because it doesn’t affect our moral responsibility unless our insight, understanding and power of self-control are affected.

Cool, I think I understand. So this is primarily about those things that are in some way or another under our control to influence. Thanks for explaining.

 

[greylorn]

“It is not fair.”! In what sense?

My point is that there is fairness on earth at the psychological and physical levels. Obviously not all injustice can be remedied in this life. Killers often escape scotfree while their victims lose all the opportunities that life on this earth offers.

Why unsuccessfully?

Your intentions are fine with me, admirable in fact, but your logic isn’t logical. Looking at your OP as a whole, it seems to me that you are using one belief (in justice) to prove another belief (in a created universe).

You haven’t refuted my logic, fellow philosopher!

I don’t need to, now. Your logic is based upon some notion that the world is fair, and that justice exists. The examples you’ve just provided demonstrate the contrary.

IMO your arguments are based upon a myopic view of reality. Maybe you should take a nice vacation in Somalia, or perhaps Iran. Buy a nice farm near the southern Arizona border and sit up nights with a shotgun by the door because the federal government blows of the U.S. Constitution, because it wants as many ignorant Democratic voters as possible. Or perhaps move to Hollywood, where La-La Land is right outside your door.

But I forget where you live. You can experience fairness and justice right near home, in the middle of London. Take a nice stroll into one of the newly declared Muslim enclaves, and bring your dog.

 

[tonyrey]

I don’t need to, now. Your logic is based upon some notion that the world is fair, and that justice exists. The examples you’ve just provided demonstrate the contrary.

IMO your arguments are based upon a myopic view of reality. Maybe you should take a nice vacation in Somalia, or perhaps Iran. Buy a nice farm near the southern Arizona border and sit up nights with a shotgun by the door because the federal government blows of the U.S. Constitution, because it wants as many ignorant Democratic voters as possible. Or perhaps move to Hollywood, where La-La Land is right outside your door.

But I forget where you live. You can experience fairness and justice right near home, in the middle of London. Take a nice stroll into one of the newly declared Muslim enclaves, and bring your dog.

I’m afraid you have completely misinterpreted me> I have stated quite clearly that killers often escape scotfree. There is a colossal amount of hideous injustice in the world because human beings abuse the gift of free will for the sake of wealth, power, pleasure and fame. If you reread my initial post you will realise that my reasoning is based on psychological truths, none of which you have questioned or even mentioned… It concerns what happens inside people’s minds not what happens in society. My reference to Nemesis and Karma should have alerted you to that fact!

 

[tobias]

If you want to know ask some non-believers why it is that they don’t believe. Most of the non-believers I know (including myself) were believers of some religion at some point in life until experiences or information eroded that belief away.

So how do you, as a nonbeliever, explain justice and the pursuit of it in a world that is violent to the notion of justice? Perhaps if you explained how your experience and/or knowledge has ‘eroded’ faith away for you I could understand how one denies deity in the face of justice.
My experience tells me that your experience of someone with a the genetic condition you described of lacking a protien thus inhibiting muscle growth was the main force of erosion of your faith, and not acquired information. But then that’s just a stab in the dark, perhaps you and your loved ones have been unscathed by the injustice of entropy. This is not meant to sound harsh, just realistic.

 

[shoe]

One of the main objections to belief in God is that there is so much injustice in the world. Yet that presupposes belief in justice. What is the basis of justice in a Godless universe? There isn’t any because there is no reason for anything! Nothing has any ultimate value, purpose or meaning if everything is due to blind physical necessity. It doesn’t make sense to believe in rights or what we should have. No one deserves anything!

Justice implies that we should get what we deserve. This belief has existed from the dawn of human history. Even the sophisticated Greeks believed in Nemesis and the doctrine of Karma in India dates from ancient beliefs. Even in our secular society many people believe in “comeuppance” and say "What goes around comes around ". Even small children have a sense of fairness without having been told: “Why is his piece of cake bigger than mine?”

It can be proved logically that justice is fact not fiction. It is not a human invention but a set of truths about life. The more we have the more we want. The more we want the more frustrated we become. The more selfish we are the more we alienate others. The more we alienate others the more isolated we become. The more isolated we become the more miserable we are. And so it is with every vice and deadly sin…

It is also true about virtue. When we care about others we forget ourselves. When we forget ourselves we are liberated from ourselves. Others cannot love us unless we are lovable in some way. And the only way to be lovable is to be a loving person. Just as natural laws determine how plants and animals grow so moral laws determine how we develop - either positively or negatively. They are rules for personal fulfilment.

All this is evidence that we live in a rational universe which cannot have an irrational origin. Justice is at the very heart of existence and it is yet one more proof of God’s infinite wisdom and love…

A mighty-fine read, Tony. Thank you for writing it up.

It’s difficult for me to imagine how mankind’s subjective, psychological theories can in any way establish an objective standard of justice and moral values without the comforting knowledge of God in the world. If an individual holds that his or her brand of justice is the right one, while another individual believes otherwise, then what authority, or whose authority, is going to be settling the issue between them?

I think that without the understanding of God’s divine justice on which individuals can base their decision making to settle issues, justice would be left in the hands of either the majority, the strong, or the dictators. People simply would have no Objective Truth to lean on, since their sense of justice, fair play, and moral values would be based on just their personal point of view.

 

[greylorn]

I’m afraid you have completely misinterpreted me> I have stated quite clearly that killers often escape scotfree. There is a colossal amount of hideous injustice in the world because human beings abuse the gift of free will for the sake of wealth, power, pleasure and fame. If you reread my initial post you will realise that my reasoning is based on psychological truths, none of which you have questioned or even mentioned… It concerns what happens inside people’s minds not what happens in society. My reference to Nemesis and Karma should have alerted you to that fact!

Tony,
I didn’t misinterpret you. I simply replied to the stuff that was tangible. I have almost no respect for psychology, finding it an atrocious pseudo-science. It is as religious as any church. Consider, for example, its belief in the conscious, subconscious, and sometimes the superconscious minds. Where are the mechanisms for those distinct functions located in the human brain? Nowhere or everywhere, depending upon which nit you talk to.

Psychology appears to be the only “science” which believes in functions without mechanisms which implement those functions. It is dumber than Darwinism, IMO.

Years ago when I decided to learn something about psychology I began with William James’ classic book. After about 100 pages or so it became clear that he was either blowing off or badly misinterpreting the data he reported, and I gave up on him. That pattern seems to follow with other psychologists. Their data is good but their interpretations are mostly nonsense, and they vary from one :“scientist” to another.

Trying to have an interesting discussion with a psychologist is about the same as with a religious dogmatist— they will make up whatever they need and report it as coming from their science. No reason, lots of cognitive dissonance, like most of the CAF threads.

I don’t know about Nemesis with a capital N, but of course have read up and heard various theories of karma. As generally practiced, it is an idiotic dogma, invented by Hindus and sustained by Buddhists and new age religionists, as their substitute for the divine retribution in purgatory or hell. It’s a poor belief subset IMO, generating more problems than it solves.

Karma, and hell, are inventions of man designed to fulfill our little brains’ needs to believe that the good guys always win and the bad guys get their comeuppance. It is a boring and unworkable theory when its implications are examined.

IMO the only relevant aspect of human behavior is that which is actually manifested. I do not accept the Judeo-Christian belief that sins can be committed in the mind. Likewise, justice cannot be had there. Only actions count.

I no more believe in psychological truth than in religious truth. I recognize that such beliefs are very powerful for those who hold them (being once a Catholic), but from an objective viewpoint they are simply a set of agreed-upon opinions.

The only meaningful way to measure justice in the world is to read newspapers, if you can find an honest one. Pay attention long enough and you will find that psychology is responsible for a considerable amount of injustice, convincing gullible judges and juries to free violent murderers on absurd insanity pleas.

 

[tonyrey]

A mighty-fine read, Tony. Thank you for writing it up.

It’s difficult for me to imagine how mankind’s subjective, psychological theories can in any way establish an objective standard of justice and moral values without the comforting knowledge of God in the world. If an individual holds that his or her brand of justice is the right one, while another individual believes otherwise, then what authority, or whose authority, is going to be settling the issue between them?

I think that without the understanding of God’s divine justice on which individuals can base their decision making to settle issues, justice would be left in the hands of either the majority, the strong, or the dictators. People simply would have no Objective Truth to lean on, since their sense of justice, fair play, and moral values would be based on just their personal point of view.

Thanks for your appreciative comments! You have summed up the untenability of subjective justice in a nutshell.

 

[tonyrey]

Tony,
I didn’t misinterpret you. I simply replied to the stuff that was tangible. I have almost no respect for psychology, finding it an atrocious pseudo-science. It is as religious as any church. Consider, for example, its belief in the conscious, subconscious, and sometimes the superconscious minds. Where are the mechanisms for those distinct functions located in the human brain? Nowhere or everywhere, depending upon which nit you talk to.

Psychology appears to be the only “science” which believes in functions without mechanisms which implement those functions. It is dumber than Darwinism, IMO.

Years ago when I decided to learn something about psychology I began with William James’ classic book. After about 100 pages or so it became clear that he was either blowing off or badly misinterpreting the data he reported, and I gave up on him. That pattern seems to follow with other psychologists. Their data is good but their interpretations are mostly nonsense, and they vary from one :“scientist” to another.

Trying to have an interesting discussion with a psychologist is about the same as with a religious dogmatist— they will make up whatever they need and report it as coming from their science. No reason, lots of cognitive dissonance, like most of the CAF threads.

I don’t know about Nemesis with a capital N, but of course have read up and heard various theories of karma. As generally practiced, it is an idiotic dogma, invented by Hindus and sustained by Buddhists and new age religionists, as their substitute for the divine retribution in purgatory or hell. It’s a poor belief subset IMO, generating more problems than it solves.

Karma, and hell, are inventions of man designed to fulfill our little brains’ needs to believe that the good guys always win and the bad guys get their comeuppance. It is a boring and unworkable theory when its implications are examined.

IMO the only relevant aspect of human behavior is that which is actually manifested. I do not accept the Judeo-Christian belief that sins can be committed in the mind. Likewise, justice cannot be had there. Only actions count.

I no more believe in psychological truth than in religious truth. I recognize that such beliefs are very powerful for those who hold them (being once a Catholic), but from an objective viewpoint they are simply a set of agreed-upon opinions.

The only meaningful way to measure justice in the world is to read newspapers, if you can find an honest one. Pay attention long enough and you will find that psychology is responsible for a considerable amount of injustice, convincing gullible judges and juries to free violent murderers on absurd insanity pleas.

It still remains for you to refute the following propositions:

1. The more we have the more we want.
2. The more we want the more frustrated we become.
3. The more selfish we are the more we alienate others.
4. The more we alienate others the more isolated we become.
5. The more isolated we become the more miserable we are.
6. When we care about others we forget ourselves.
7. When we forget ourselves we are liberated from ourselves.
8. Others cannot love us unless we are lovable in some way.
9. The only way to be lovable is to be a loving person.