Cosmological Argument

[Linusthe2nd]

Looks like you still do not get the point. Sure, anyone can make a “claim”, metaphysical or not. So what? Claims are dime a dozen. Here we have a claim which is supposed to be the foundation of a “proof” for God’s existence. Such a claim requires an ironclad proof, if its corollary is to be taken seriously. Just to say that it is supported by some intuition is worthless. Do you understand it now?

And where are your " rock solic " proofs that atheism is correct? Neither you nor the great " thinkers " of atheism have been able to provide any. Linus2nd

 

[Tyrion]

Wait, what? Surely if, as a matter of metaphysics, everything that begins to exist has a cause of its existence, then the universe has a cause of its existence if it began to exist.

IF is the operating word. And since the universe is NOT an object, rather a collection of objects, it is not obvious that one can generalize from the particular to the whole.

I don’t see how you can say that the principle doesn’t apply, unless you think it’s false - and now you’ve taken some detour away from arguing that it’s false.

I have not argued that it is false, I merely pointed out that it is unsubstantiated.

 

[Eleve]

IF is the operating word. And since the universe is NOT an object, rather a collection of objects, it is not obvious that one can generalize from the particular to the whole.

The first object in the universe needs a cause, right?

I have not argued that it is false, I merely pointed out that it is unsubstantiated.

You’ve pointed out that it is not absolutely certain. Only in your mind is that the same thing as “unsubstantiated.”

 

[Love4All]

Well of course. You know that and I know that and lots of other people. But that is not enough for the people we are dealing with. They demand proofs. We give them proofs which require some deep thinking ( Thomas’ Five plus Ways and 20 or so others). These proofs are " complex " ( to me at least ). But to prove that atheism is correct is not only complex, it is impossible. If you think I am wrong, that is O.K., I’m a slow learner - everything is complex to me. Linus2nd

No, you are right. And it seems to me that many of them wish to remain on a very precarious fence. On the one hand, it is too simple for them to just look at the sky, or look at a flower, or listen to Bach, and say, “Wow!”

But on the other hand, Saint Thomas requires too much effort for them to make, to understand. Him, they would rather dismiss with sound bites.

They want to have their cake and eat it, too, and ironically, since their “cake” is Atheism,

The cake is a lie!

couldn’t resist!

 

[tdgesq]

IF is the operating word. And since the universe is NOT an object, rather a collection of objects, it is not obvious that one can generalize from the particular to the whole.

All collection of objects that begin to exist have a cause of their existence. Your imposed dilemma is resolved. And we will ignore for the moment the evidence that at the singularity (single, as in one) the universe began to exist.

 

[Linusthe2nd]

No, you are right. And it seems to me that many of them wish to remain on a very precarious fence. On the one hand, it is too simple for them to just look at the sky, or look at a flower, or listen to Bach, and say, “Wow!”

But on the other hand, Saint Thomas requires too much effort for them to make, to understand. Him, they would rather dismiss with sound bites.

They want to have their cake and eat it, too, and ironically, since their “cake” is Atheism,

The cake is a lie!

couldn’t resist!

 

[Steinway]

I have not argued that it is false, I merely pointed out that it is unsubstantiated.

It seems that some of your difficulties with the Cosmological Argument have to do with the beginning of the Universe not being directly observable. There is another Cosmological Argument that’s a little closer to home, regarding the timeline of human existence. These proofs are more observable:

ArguingWithAtheists.com/Pages/Intelligent_Design.htm

 

[Steinway]

Dr. William Lane Craig just published one of his “Question & Answers” on the Cosmological Argument:

ReasonableFaith.org/Questions-About-the-Cosmological-Argument