Costs and Benefits of Guns

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triumphguy said:
Hmmm. not sure I said that šŸ˜‰

I was just musing on the stats, and wondering why America compared to all countries, and especially to countries with comparable rates of gun ownership has such a horrendous record of gun violence and violence in general.

Itā€™s a serious question: why do you think there is so much violence in your society?

I only live a couple of hours drive away from America, but we seem worlds apart on so many things, and yet so similar too.
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There are over 2,000 violent crimes recorded per 100,000 population in the UK. Austria is second, with a rate of 1,677 per 100,000 people, followed by Sweden, Belgium, Finland and Holland. France recorded a rate of 504 violent crimes per 100,000 population.

By comparison, America has an estimated rate of 466 violent crimes per 100,000 population.

Tell me again how much more violent America isā€¦

Oh, and by the way, those who might suggest that there is somehow an increase or mass wave of these sorts of crimes would be wrong. Notice the nice spike in gun deaths the very year that Clintonā€™s gun ban went became law.

boston.com/community/blogs/crime_punishment/2012/08/no_increase_in_mass_shootings.html

Notice how this latest crime was committed in a state with some of the tougher gun laws in the nation and how it happened in a so called ā€œgun freeā€ zone. Wow, does this mean that laws donā€™t deter criminals or those with mental health problems? I canā€™t believe it.
 
OK simple question, and a serious one:

We donā€™t live in India or the Middle East. We live in the developed west.

Why such a difference between Canada and the US?

We have the same rate of gun ownership. Probably fewer handguns, but probably more hunting rifles per capita.

Because this question is not just about guns is it? Itā€™s also about culture.
 
triumphguy said:
OK simple question, and a serious one:

We donā€™t live in India or the Middle East. We live in the developed west.

Why such a difference between Canada and the US?

We have the same rate of gun ownership. Probably fewer handguns, but probably more hunting rifles per capita.

Because this question is not just about guns is it? Itā€™s also about culture.
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Switzerland has more guns than the US and one of the lowest homicide rates in the world.

My contention is that guns are not the difference. I see welfare and incarceration and the drug war as the main culprits.
 
smndtupidisaftr said:
Switzerland has more guns than the US and one of the lowest homicide rates in the world.

My contention is that guns are not the difference. I see welfare and incarceration and the drug war as the main culprits.
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Switzerland is very different. I lived there as a kid.

For a start you donā€™t get a gun unless you serve in the military, and you get military training for your weapon. Plus the society is far different from English speaking countries. It is very Germanic and ordered. The people as individuals are different too.

You get one rifle and the ammo is kept at the armoury.

Owning handguns is far tougher than in North America.
 
triumphguy said:
Switzerland is very different. I lived there as a kid.

For a start you donā€™t get a gun unless you serve in the military, and you get military training for your weapon. Plus the society is far different from English speaking countries. It is very Germanic and ordered. The people as individuals are different too.

You get one rifle and the ammo is kept at the armoury.

Owning handguns is far tougher than in North America.
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snopes.com/politics/guns/switzerland.asp

Most men serve in the military in Switzerland.

So like I said, itā€™s not weapons that are the problem, and I think you agree to an extent that there are greater forces at play.
 
triumphguy said:
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikiped..._rate2004.svg/800px-Homicide_rate2004.svg.png
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2004 data?

csmonitor.com/USA/2012/0612/US-violent-crime-rate-down-for-fifth-straight-year
According to the FBI, which culls from information volunteered by some 14,000 law enforcement jurisdictions from Oahu to Key West, violent crimes dropped in all four major US regions: 4.7 percent in the West, 4.9 percent in the Midwest (a region where the murder rate actually rose slightly), 4.5 percent in the South, and 0.8 percent in the Northeast. The national murder rate dropped by 1.9 percent.
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The falling crime rate amid the worst economic downturn since the Great Depression has puzzled some criminologists, since crime historically spikes during hard times.
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csmonitor.com/USA/Justice/2012/0109/US-crime-rate-at-lowest-point-in-decades.-Why-America-is-safer-now?nav=504291-csm_article-promoLink
The data point to a persistent perception gap among Americans. Despite strong evidence of crime dropping over recent decades, the public sees the reverse. ā€œRecent Gallup polls have found that citizens overwhelmingly feel crime is going up even though it is not,ā€ says Professor Fox. ā€œThis is because of the growth of crime shows and the way that TV spotlights the emotional. One case of a random, horrific shooting shown repeatedly on TV has more visceral effect than all the statistics printed in a newspaper.ā€
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Violent crime has been dropping in the US for 20 straight years while at the same time, gun ownership has increased and gun laws have been relaxed. To establish causality in terms of guns and violent crime, one must have a positive correlation between the two. We donā€™t. Its the opposite.
 
smndtupidisaftr said:
snopes.com/politics/guns/switzerland.asp

Most men serve in the military in Switzerland.

So like I said, itā€™s not weapons that are the problem, and I think you agree to an extent that there are greater forces at play.
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Yep: I was agreeing with you.šŸ‘

@jwinch From the same article:
a growing number of violent and property crimes in the second half of the year partially offset the trend, causing criminologists like James Alan Fox of Northeastern University in Boston to suggest that the US may be coming to ā€œthe end of the troughā€ in violent crime.
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triumphguy said:
And we have as many guns per capita in Canada as you guys in the States.

I think we had less than 50 handgun deaths last year. The USA had over 10,000.
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Whatā€™s your ratio of Ghettoā€™s to ours?

How does your government deal with small time drug dealers and users?
 
triumphguy said:
Yep: I was agreeing with you.šŸ‘

@jwinch From the same article:
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may beā€¦ Weā€™ll have to wait and see. Regardless, over the past two decades, violent crime has gone down in the US while gun availability has increased.

Personally, I suggest focusing on the real issues: Horrifically inadequate processes and treatments in place for dealing with mental health issues; a culture which celebrates violence in movies and video games; a society which does not believe in the intrinsic value of life, nor of the God which created it; and a news media which sensationalizes things to such a proportion that they create false impressions of increasing violence when the opposite is true, and serve to encourage those who would draw attention to themselves by doing similar things.

Also, we could look at the fact that death by gunshot is not even in the top 50 in terms of reasons for death in the United States. In fact murder, regardless of instrument used, is not even in the top 50. I am 30 times more likely to die in a car crash, 10 times more likely to die in a fall, 5 times more likely to die by poison, 4 times more likely to die by drowning, 3 times more likely to die in a fire, and twice as likely to die via suffocation as I am to die via gunshot. When I see a national outrage on auto accidents or a move to ban cars the way there is with guns; when I see a national ā€œfall preventionā€ campaign on the part of the government; I will start believing that people are actually trying to help others rather than simply push their political agenda.
 
triumphguy said:
Hmmm. not sure I said that šŸ˜‰

I was just musing on the stats, and wondering why America compared to all countries, and especially to countries with comparable rates of gun ownership has such a horrendous record of gun violence and violence in general.

Itā€™s a serious question: why do you think there is so much violence in your society?
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A ton of it comes directly from the war on drugs. Also we have by far a **ton more people in prisons, **so we have way **more laws or much stricter enforcement and/or penalties **as we have the most in prisons as well. Prisonā€™s are Gladiator Schools, not rehabilitative prisons.
We have a lot of single parent homes. For these reasons here we have a lot of violence. When someone comes out of jail they have a felony record, this translates to them beginning being a career criminal. With that comes violence.
triumphguy said:
I only live a couple of hours drive away from America, but we seem worlds apart on so many things, and yet so similar too.

For instance, while many people own many guns we donā€™t really talk about them. You get the occasional bumper sticker, but people just keep quiet about their guns. We have more of a hunting culture than gun culture, and the rifle is seen as a tool for a purpose - hunting, and not hunting as an excuse to shoot guns.

Maybe Iā€™m wrong - I often am. šŸ˜‰
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Who is murdering ppl wiht guns here? Drug dealers or people robbing them. Thatā€™s b/c of the war on drugs. 2 1/2 TRILLION DOLLARS wasted, for nothing. Maybe if we have a war on guns we can spend 2 1/1 trillion and have more guns that are cheaper just like with the drug war, huh?
 
Surely nobody could argue against severe restictions on assault weapons? Who needs to protect themselves with a semi-automatic rifle, for heavenā€™s sake.

And Iā€™ve even seen comments today that it might be a good idea to restict gun access to mentally ill people. Say what? Mentally ill people have access to firearms? Tell me it ainā€™t soā€¦
 
triumphguy said:
Thatā€™s more the nub of the discussion isnā€™t it.šŸ‘
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Some people like to think, realize they donā€™t know everything, be open to different ideas, etcā€¦

Other people like to spit their agenda over and over again (I have no idea why)
 
dandingo said:
Although I think the government is partly culpable, we cannot, under any circumstances, take away responsibility from the disgusting human being that committed this atrocity.

.
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If your talking about CT, I ask why didnā€™t the teacherss have guns to protect the kids? Why is everyone and their mom talking about this event?Itā€™s just gonnafuel the fire forthe next stunt schmuch.
 
Bill_7154 said:
If your talking about CT, I ask why didnā€™t the teacherss have guns to protect the kids?
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With some of the attitudes posted here in regard to guns, I donā€™t know if thatā€™s a serious suggestion or not. Which is a sad reflection on how the discussion is going.
 
triumphguy said:
OK simple question, and a serious one:

We donā€™t live in India or the Middle East. We live in the developed west.

Why such a difference between Canada and the US?

We have the same rate of gun ownership. Probably fewer handguns, but probably more hunting rifles per capita.

Because this question is not just about guns is it? Itā€™s also about culture.
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Just remember what Mother Theresa said about the USA vs. India. She understood what the American problem is about, and all the other countries will follow and imitate that American model.
 
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