Costs and Benefits of Guns

[Bradski]

But maybe your comparison between the whole country of Oz with the small city of Milwaukee is a little statistically unfair? Maybe it would be better to compare the rate in Milwaukee with other cities of similar size and demographics in Oz?

I can’t find any figures for specific cities but in 2011, the total number of gun related homicides in New South Wales (population 7.2 million) was 11 or 0.15 per 100,000. The total number of people murdered by any means was only 77 which is still only 1.05 per 100,000.

http://www.bocsar.nsw.gov.au/lawlink/bocsar/ll_bocsar.nsf/vwFiles/BB82.pdf/$file/BB82.pdf

The nearest sized city in NSW to Milwaukee is Newcastle with about 550,000. If all the gun related murders in NSW took place in that one city it still only comes to 2.0 per 100,000.

In fact, if all the gun related murders in the whole of Australia were committed just in Newcastle (it’s about 42 per year), the murder rate per 100,000 would be 7.6 which is still about half of Milwaukee’s.

Whichever way you crunch the numbers, the difference is huge. And I think the difference is in public perception of firearms.

I literally don’t know anyone who has a gun. I have literally not only not owned a gun, I have never fired one or even held one either. Your post above (#19), is jaw-droppingly blasé about firearms and I reckon that anyone in Australia would find it so as well. Driving around with a 9mm on your lap? What the…?

And let me say quite catagorically that I’m not blaming you guys for the problem. If I’d grown up in the US I’m certain that I’d find it quite natural to go out with a concealed weapon. It’s just a reflection of what people think is acceptable. And unfortunately, what is deemed acceptable in the US leads to homicide figures that are shockingly high compared to countries where there is no gun culture.

How you fix the problem is completely beyond me. And I suspect beyond anyone else as well.

 

[Bill_Martin]

Anyone familiar with .410 shots loaded in and fired from short barrel revolvers?

I’m pretty sure I’m going to eventually get this gun. Holster on my right hip. It will cost me about $50 or a little more to get a concealed weapons permit up her in Wisconsin and I can carry in something like 13 states I think. But first I’ll be starting off with a smaller caliber weapon to carry as a primary. I’m looking at the Khar .380 but it costs a pretty penny. I would go Hi Point firearms because they’re inexpensive - but I figure why not buy a little better quality.

I’m inquiring into the benefits and non-benefits of potentially firing at someone with .410 shots rounds or hitting someone. Also, my apartment is made up of drywall. That would be one benefit to having the .380 and probably loaded with those Glaser protective rounds. Might not penetrate the dry wall?

I’m not the most knowledgeable about bullets and ballistics.

Taurus Public Defender Ploymer: taurususa.com/product-details.cfm?id=693&category=Revolver&toggle=tr&breadcrumbseries=41

Any round that will effectively stop a bad guy will penetrate several walls. Any round that will not penetrate several walls is one I would not trust my life to. I would advise against the .410. No .410 load from a handgun meets the FBI’s minimum penetration requirements. The same likely goes for the Glasers. This puts you in serious risk if you ever had to defend your life with it.

I think a Hi-Point in 9mm or .45 ACP would be fine if you are on a tight budget and need something reliable. They’re ugly and cheap, but they work.

 

[Do_Good_Then_Go]

I can’t find any figures for specific cities but in 2011, the total number of gun related homicides in New South Wales (population 7.2 million) was 11 or 0.15 per 100,000. The total number of people murdered by any means was only 77 which is still only 1.05 per 100,000.

http://www.bocsar.nsw.gov.au/lawlink/bocsar/ll_bocsar.nsf/vwFiles/BB82.pdf/$file/BB82.pdf

The nearest sized city in NSW to Milwaukee is Newcastle with about 550,000. If all the gun related murders in NSW took place in that one city it still only comes to 2.0 per 100,000.

In fact, if all the gun related murders in the whole of Australia were committed just in Newcastle (it’s about 42 per year), the murder rate per 100,000 would be 7.6 which is still about half of Milwaukee’s.

Whichever way you crunch the numbers, the difference is huge. And I think the difference is in public perception of firearms.

I literally don’t know anyone who has a gun. I have literally not only not owned a gun, I have never fired one or even held one either. Your post above (#19), is jaw-droppingly blasé about firearms and I reckon that anyone in Australia would find it so as well. Driving around with a 9mm on your lap? What the…?

And let me say quite catagorically that I’m not blaming you guys for the problem. If I’d grown up in the US I’m certain that I’d find it quite natural to go out with a concealed weapon. It’s just a reflection of what people think is acceptable. And unfortunately, what is deemed acceptable in the US leads to homicide figures that are shockingly high compared to countries where there is no gun culture.

How you fix the problem is completely beyond me. And I suspect beyond anyone else as well.

I don’t know anyone who has a gun either and I’ve never even SEEN one in my actual daily life let alone held one or fired one or seen anyone else hold or fire one. I agree, the difference in culture and what is considered normal, acceptable, or at least not unusual is astonishing.

For anyone reading the thread who has a gun, would you be happy to leave it at home when travelling to a different country or would you feel a bit uneasy without it? Would you feel that you perhaps needed it more in a place where you were a ‘stranger’ or would you feel that it wasn’t needed if no-one else was likely to have one? Serious question, really want to know

 

[ReasonBeing]

A friend of mine says “I carry a gun because a cop is too heavy.”

I have a carry permit, but I don’t really carry a gun much. It’s really in the house for protection. You come into my house uninvited and you will likely leave with lead in you.

I too have my carry permit and depending on where I am going I will carry it with me in my car/purse. I primarily have guns for protection in my home.

 

[Burdensome1]

This thread did prompt me to research homicide rates, and I discovered that the District of Columbia in the USA has a higher murder rate than all but a few of the most violent nations on Earth. Amazing.

 

[Bill_7154]

Stemming from the thread about guns and gun ownership rights.

I’m largely pro-gun ownership. And having a gun does not mean one will automatically commit and unjustifiable homicide. Guns can help a smaller man (or woman) against a larger man. It can also deter a mob intent on beating you or lynching you.

The showing of a gun (by a citizen) stops hundreds of thousands of crimes every year, deterrence of crime happens because when people know a large % of citizens own guns in a particular area, it allows people to live lives free of stress from bad ppl doing bad things to them or ppl in their houses, etc…

 

[George_Stegmeir]

The showing of a gun (by a citizen) stops hundreds of thousands of crimes every year, deterrence of crime happens because when people know a large % of citizens own guns in a particular area, it allows people to live lives free of stress from bad ppl doing bad things to them or ppl in their houses, etc…

There is an old adage that was true when first said in the 1800’s and still holds true today: G*d created all men equal. Sam Colt made them equal!"

 

[liturgyluver]

The showing of a gun (by a citizen) stops hundreds of thousands of crimes every year, deterrence of crime happens because when people know a large % of citizens own guns in a particular area, it allows people to live lives free of stress from bad ppl doing bad things to them or ppl in their houses, etc…

Well, if that’s true I dread to think how much higher crime would be in the States with the hundreds of thousands of crimes that guns allegedly prevent. Perhaps 9,200 gun homicides every year is a small price to pay?

 

[Lost_Sheep]

I have a carry permit, but I don’t really carry a gun much. It’s really in the house for protection. You come into my house uninvited and you will likely leave with lead in you.

A buddy of mine who is a cop refers to this as “Acute Lead Poisoning”.

 

[Lost_Sheep]

This thread did prompt me to research homicide rates, and I discovered that the District of Columbia in the USA has a higher murder rate than all but a few of the most violent nations on Earth. Amazing.

“Aside from the murders, DC has one of the lowest crime rates in the country.” - former DC mayor Marion Barry

 

[ffg]

Criminals will always find a way to get what they want.

Gun regulation doesn’t make the criminal think twice.

Gun education and training for honest people could help the general public feel more comfortable with owning a gun.

This in turn may make a criminal think twice.

 

[Bill_7154]

Well, if that’s true I dread to think how much higher crime would be in the States with the hundreds of thousands of crimes that guns allegedly prevent. Perhaps 9,200 gun homicides every year is a small price to pay?

Another interesting statistic is the ammt of ‘children’ who are either killed or kill with a gun.

The definition of ‘kid’ includes individual who have multiple felony convictions, including violent ones, have spent time in youth detention facilities, and belong to street gangs…they just haven’t reached the age of 19 yet. But nothing about them or their lifesyle says anthing remotely related to kid or ‘child’ or children’ to me. What about to you? It’s another game of statistics and semantics that are being played. Say it ain’t true. Then back it up with facts.

 

[Bill_7154]

Well, if that’s true I dread to think how much higher crime would be in the States with the hundreds of thousands of crimes that guns allegedly prevent. Perhaps 9,200 gun homicides every year is a small price to pay?

How many of those homicides were committed by legal gun owners who used their guns to murder someone and how many were committed by felons who used stolen guns, etc?

 

[Bill_7154]

The problem of gun violence is not the fault of law enforcement, Rather, it lies in the fact that the lower orders of society have no fear of retribution. In other words, jail or prison holds no terrors for them and they have lost any sense of personal responsibility for their acts by the time they were 10 years old.

This, plus they get ‘street cred’ for being an ex con. And the business most of them are in is a black market business. They can’t call the cops for protection (drug dealing). And given their impulse control issues and other issues spoken of, it’s a prescription for prison.

Peace,
Bill

 

[epan]

Stemming from the thread about guns and gun ownership rights.

I’m largely pro-gun ownership. And having a gun does not mean one will automatically commit and unjustifiable homicide. Guns can help a smaller man (or woman) against a larger man. It can also deter a mob intent on beating you or lynching you.

Guns comes with costs as well. Some of those costs are financial and others are social and emotional. Unlike a knife a gun can more efficiently kill several people from distance much further than arms length.

Mathematical averages do not accurately project the true cost of gun use. A mean average in a nation will be lowered - pulled down - by areas of a nation that rarely experience gun violence. The same is true in any city on earth. In the City of Milwaukee you have certain neighborhoods probably safer than some European cities like London, Paris, Berlin, and Naples. But on the other hand, you have certain areas of Milwaukee (true any in other city on earth) where the per capita homicides (or gun violence with surviving victims of gun wounds) greatly exceeds the per capita homicide rate of the city.

(As an example: Several years ago I worked out the algebra on the approximate homicide rate in the neighborhood I was raised in for a specific year. The homicide rate exceeded that of at least least 1 favela in Rio de Janeiro for that same year. That favela had seen an astronomical decrease in homicides due to a new and aggressive model of policing in Rio. My neighborhood has roughly over 30,000 people while the specific favela I compared the data with has over 100,000 people)

A very informative Milwaukee Journal article (the newspaper has one more than one Pulitzer Prize) about gun violence and homicides in Milwaukee - and nationally. It’s a several part series with links to all the series parts. The article is dated November of 2006. Full article and series: jsonline.com/news/milwaukee/29192834.html

The 7th District Court just struck down the Illinois gun law as being too restrictive. Some of the provisions of the 7th District ruling contradict a recent 2nd District Court ruling. So, it looks like SCOTUS will get involved.

I think that history of it with SCOTUS is that the 2nd amendment applies to the federal government and its relationship to its citizens, but does not apply to state controls on gun ownership.

 

[Bill_7154]

epan:
The gov’t runs Nationwide/Federal checks on ppl who wish to purchase handguns, does it not? Why not federal time in prison for ppl who murder regardless of where they reside? Same with death penalty, murder in state A get life, murder in state B get death, etc…

I live in a city whree it is very hard to get a handguy permit. I would like it to be easier. I would like ppl to be able to purchase them to keep in their homes for protection, which would include permission to take it to and from the firing range so llong as it’s stored safely, a permit to allow ppl to own and wear guns in public, then concealed carry. They have concealed carry in my state MA, but I don’t think they evel have a permit to keep it in their home and to use it at the target range very easily.

 

[Ridgerunner]

Basically when loaded with the .410 round they are an expensive toy. They have little stopping power. At any distance the .410 round with its extremely short barrel rapidly loses speed and the shot dissipates. At more than 20’ a heavy coat will provide a person a lot of safety.

Maybe there is some sense in which you’re right. I’m not a gun expert. But the only thing I ever shot with a handgun and a .410 shell was an alligator snapping turtle from maybe 15 feet away. Did him in good and proper. I think it depends on the shot itself. I always buy the biggest shot I can get.

I do maintain that a .410 long gun is about as deadly a gun as you can have at relatively short range. I use it to shoot snakes at distances from frighteningly close to 20-30 feet away, and it’s very effective. I once tried out a .410 and a 12 gauge on an old abandoned outhouse wall, and while the .410 pattern was a lot smaller, the penetration was considerably more severe. Of course, I was pretty close, too.

 

[Bradski]

Another interesting statistic is the ammt of ‘children’ who are either killed or kill with a gun.

The definition of ‘kid’ includes individual who have multiple felony convictions, including violent ones, have spent time in youth detention facilities, and belong to street gangs…they just haven’t reached the age of 19 yet. But nothing about them or their lifesyle says anthing remotely related to kid or ‘child’ or children’ to me. What about to you? It’s another game of statistics and semantics that are being played. Say it ain’t true. Then back it up with facts.

Connecticut enough facts for you?

 

[CaliLobo]

Can today’s Connecticut tragedy finally change everyone’s mind (like mine) on gun rights?

How many more children and innocents have to die in mass shootings? Columbine, Tucson, Santee (CA), Connecticut, and more. I understand the historical origins and philosophy behind bearing arms, but that is a bygone era. Other advanced nations in Europe and Asia have strict gun controls, and much less crime. How can it be a civil right to possess such dangerous items? Why do we need to continue to possess such barbaric tools? The best way to prevent being a victim is to lock up and hide your stuff, stay away from dangerous areas, keep lights on, and don’t give people dirty looks.

Here’s a link comparing every country’s homicide rate. Europe and Japan have far less intentional homicides than the US.
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_intentional_homicide_rate

Also, isn’t protecting everyone from guns a PRO-LIFE position??

 

[Lost_Sheep]

Can today’s Connecticut tragedy finally change everyone’s mind (like mine) on gun rights?

How many more children and innocents have to die in mass shootings? Columbine, Tucson, Santee (CA), Connecticut, and more. I understand the historical origins and philosophy behind bearing arms, but that is a bygone era. Other advanced nations in Europe and Asia have strict gun controls, and much less crime. How can it be a civil right to possess such dangerous items? Why do we need to continue to possess such barbaric tools? The best way to prevent being a victim is to lock up and hide your stuff, stay away from dangerous areas, keep lights on, and don’t give people dirty looks.

Here’s a link comparing every country’s homicide rate. Europe and Japan have far less intentional homicides than the US.
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_intentional_homicide_rate

Also, isn’t protecting everyone from guns a PRO-LIFE position??

Guns are not the problem. We don’t try to prevent drunk driving by banning cars. We don’t blame spoons for people getting fat. So don’t blame guns for the wrongdoings of a few.

It is a sad but true fact that sometimes people kill other people. It’s human nature and nothing is going to change that. It’s been going on since Cain and Abel and for centuries before they even had guns. Clubs, spears, rocks, daggers, crossbows, swords etc. What makes guns any different? Someday in the future we may have laser beam pistols. Ban them, and I will revert back to a gun.

If I want to kill you, I will do it. If I don’t have a gun, I will use a knife, or a baseball bat, or run over you with my car. It is not a gun problem; it is a people problem.