cosubstantial

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I mean, really, what is with having such a word? i hate this word. It is difficult to say. Do the bishops live in the real world where no one talks like that?

I used to really love saying the nicene Creed. The other changes seem fine. But this one word has gotten to me.

It makes me feel stupid before God because it just can’t be pronounced easily. It causes a separation between me and my Lord at Mass.

Everyone is stumbling on this word. It is distracting.

Any anvenue to let the bishops know how unhappy this one catholic is with this word?
 
I mean, really, what is with having such a word? i hate this word. It is difficult to say. Do the bishops live in the real world where no one talks like that?

I used to really love saying the Nicene Creed. The other changes seem fine. But this one word has gotten to me.

It makes me feel stupid before God because it just can’t be pronounced easily. It causes a separation between me and my Lord at Mass.

Everyone is stumbling on this word. It is distracting.

Any anvenue to let the bishops know how unhappy this one catholic is with this word?
I don’t think it’s difficult to say. I bet you’ve said the word “substantial” in some other situation, like, “That is a very substantial amount of money,” when at the bank, so why is hard to add a “con” to the front of it and say it mass? Granted, I’m fond of words and I’m very good with them, they’re my thing, but this is not a hard word by any means.

I detest the attitude that we have to speak like third graders during mass just because most of the secular English speaking, rather text-speaking, world does. “Consubstantial,” from the Latin, “consubstantialem,” is a very ancient word. Why we had to render it in elementary-speak, I don’t know. “Eucharistic,” as in, “Eucharistic Prayer,” isn’t exactly the simplest word either, but I’ve never heard anyone complain about it. “Oblation” is a rather archaic word, yet we still use it at mass, and it was even present in the old translation. Also, who in the world says “hosanna?” Not many people, but we say it at mass.

I am exactly the opposite of you, in that saying prayers in third-grader vocabulary makes me feel stupid, or like a seven year old, and saying them in their fullest, most direct translation makes me feel like I may begin to approach God as an adult. I am a Catholic of less than a year, yet even that has been long enough time for me to be tired of the hippyesque, Seventies groovy love language, which was so distasteful to me that I caught myself many times at mass shutting down and going on autopilot mode because there was no substance, no real idea to latch on to and think about.

I agree that many people are stumbling at this word. The stumbling is indeed distracting. Rather than hating the language, however, and blaming it, I blame it on our poor education systems and embarrassing way of thinking that makes no distinction between a sacred space and the street. That doesn’t give us the license to distill our faith down into some mucky baby food type language. Rather, I see “consubstantial” as a catechetical opportunity that we so desperately need in our churches. In my senior year English class in high school, half the people couldn’t read. They would stutter at the simplest words, they would make full pauses at the end of every line when there was no punctuation, and they consistently received very poor grades. Rather than embracing this, the Church should try her best to ensure both the spiritual and intellectual development of her people, as those things go hand in hand in the realm of theology, of which knowledge the average Catholic is so anorexically deprived, turning into a spitting hatred for all things complicated. I don’t expect every Catholic to be an accomplished theologian, but I don’t think it’s too much to ask that every Catholic know words that have been in use in the Church for thousands of years.

If you really do feel it necessary to voice your opinion to the hierarchy, you may write to your bishop. You can find his address on the diocesan website.
 
A bit harsh, that, YoungTradCath., in my opinion.

A bit ‘jumping on someone from a great height’, if you know what I mean.
 
I mean, really, what is with having such a word? i hate this word. It is difficult to say. Do the bishops live in the real world where no one talks like that?

I used to really love saying the nicene Creed. The other changes seem fine. But this one word has gotten to me.

It makes me feel stupid before God because it just can’t be pronounced easily. It causes a separation between me and my Lord at Mass.

Everyone is stumbling on this word. It is distracting.

Any anvenue to let the bishops know how unhappy this one catholic is with this word?
No one is stumbling on it, and it is perfectly easy to say. It sounds just like the word “insubstantial,” which everybody knows and can say without giving it a second thought, except that the prefix is different.

I mean, honestly. It’s not as though it’s weltanschauung or sphygmomanometer.
 
It is at the least a highly technical word. I doubt you would get similar answers from most Catholics if you asked what it meant, exactly, other than ‘one’. Of course the same is also true of ‘one in being’. That is the result of using unplain English. People understand the same words to mean different things. It always seems strange to me that a Church founded by someone who used wonderfully simple language could develop “Vaticanese”.
 
It is at the least a highly technical word. I doubt you would get similar answers from most Catholics if you asked what it meant, exactly, other than ‘one’. Of course the same is also true of ‘one in being’. That is the result of using unplain English. People understand the same words to mean different things. It always seems strange to me that a Church founded by someone who used wonderfully simple language could develop “Vaticanese”.
Well… hehe, I could argue that you’re actually wrong about Jesus here. When Jesus spoke in simple language He was out among the masses. But, since He would have worshiped at the Jewish synagogue services (and His early followers as well), He and those throngs while worshiping would have been using a dead liturgical language, namely ancient Hebrew as compared to the Koine Greek and Aramaic of the day. Even then there was a division between profane and sacred in the language used by the Church.
 
Well… hehe, I could argue that you’re actually wrong about Jesus here. When Jesus spoke in simple language He was out among the masses. But, since He would have worshiped at the Jewish synagogue services (and His early followers as well), He and those throngs while worshiping would have been using a dead liturgical language, namely ancient Hebrew as compared to the Koine Greek and Aramaic of the day. Even then there was a division between profane and sacred in the language used by the Church.
Yes but we are not talking here about a dead liturgical language. we are talking about English. I can accept that Jesus used an otherwise dead language in ritual, but in that is not the same as using a living language, understood and used by all, in a way which is likely to confuse.
 
Yes but we are not talking here about a dead liturgical language. we are talking about English. I can accept that Jesus used an otherwise dead language in ritual, but in that is not the same as using a living language, understood and used by all, in a way which is likely to confuse.
The reason we go out of the way to make a more complex and formal version of the vernacular is the same reason we would use a dead language though. It’s intended to be more precise and poetic, so as to set the event off from the rest of life. If we used plainer English we’d actually have less to gain from the prayers, as they would wear all their meaning at a basic level and would result in a less sacral atmosphere. It seems less pragmatic at first, but in all reality the complexity of language allows for greater levels of function. Besides, pragmatism doesn’t really fly in Catholicism. I mean, we could say the Kyrie, or just say a communal “Sorry, please forgive us and help us to do better” to the Lord. But where’s the contrition, the humbling, the spirit of repentance in the latter one? Where’s the implication of judgement and submission, and the connection of grace with mercy which underscores the undeserved nature of both?
 
Although I do suppose that they could have translated the word instead of carrying it over from Latin with a cognate. But then again, when you have a cognate why not just use it? I guess in this case it’s pastoral sensibility vs science in a way. They had a certain method and stuck with it in this case.

I don’t know what to say about that, because my opinion is that it’s fine - but I’m up there in verbal skills so I don’t understand the average reaction.
 
I don’t mind saying consubstantial, but **One in Being **made more sense to me. I know the term consubstantial, but it is a mouthful to say. I want the third graders to understand as well as the adults. Using the term consubstantial reminded me that some protestants use the term “consubstantiation” instead of “transubstantiation” to explain the presence of Jesus in the bread and wine. So it is more confusing than clarifying.
 
Do the bishops live in the real world where no one talks like that?
As a matter of fact, the bishops are all very well educated men. So, “big words” are very appropriate.

The Mass is the the most magnificent prayer. Spend you energy on the parts you love and don’t dwell on what is negative to you.
 
As a matter of fact, the bishops are all very well educated men. So, “big words” are very appropriate.

The Mass is the the most magnificent prayer. Spend you energy on the parts you love and don’t dwell on what is negative to you.
Probably the best comment so far, actually.
 
As a matter of fact, the bishops are all very well educated men. So, “big words” are very appropriate.

The Mass is the the most magnificent prayer. Spend you energy on the parts you love and don’t dwell on what is negative to you.
I would add that you should also use this as a teaching moment.

If you do not understand something, rather than bash it, learn what it is you do not understand and reach out to others to help them understand.
 
I don’t mind saying consubstantial, but **One in Being **made more sense to me.
The concept of “One in Being” is incorrect. It is a statement of existance. There is no existance apart from God, so just about everything is “One in Being” with the Father. The Keyboard you are typing on, the grass on the lawn etc…

Substance is a statement on the Nature of something. That characistics that set it apart from everything else.

While the grass on my lawn is “One in Being” with the Father, it is not of the same substance as the Father. It is not Divine.

Christ (as well as the Spirit) are Consubstantial with the Father, they share the same Divine Essence, the same Divine Nature.

So the old translation said nothing really about the Nature of Christ in relation to the Father, the new one does.
I want the third graders to understand as well as the adults. .
Why? It’s a nice concept, but it is not how the Church works.

When the Council of Nicea met, they created the Creed using the terms Homoousios\Consubstantalis. (the Council promulgated the Creed in both Latin and Greek.

This was back when both Latin and Greek were common languages, but they still used very technical terms. Neither terms were normal, household words used by the regular folks in the pews. They required an understanding of Aristolean metaphysics then, and they do so now.

Clearly, the Council considered it more beneficial to the Church to be very precise in the theological concepts, rather than making it understandable to 8 year olds.

So why fault the Church if it is still true today.

One other point, I don’t think there were many third graders who could describe what was meant by “One in Being”. Sure they could pronounce the words more easily than “consubstantial”, but I think the number who actually understood it was very, very small.

At least with 'Consubstantial", most third graders would recognize that they do NOT understand it, and this is a great opportunity for their parents, pastors or religious teachers to explain the concept to them. With “One in Being”, most never would have even asked.
 
I find it odd that you describe yourself as having one foot in the Catholic Church and the other in the Evangelical. Most Protestant translations (if not all) use the term “consubstantial” (not co-substantial, as you wrote) or “one in substance”. I don’t believe any of them use the older phrase “one in being”.

BTW, you DO know how to pronounce “substance” and “substantial”, do you not? Just put “con” in front of “substantial”, and voila!

Also, since when does the truth get in the way of our communing with the Lord?
 
One other point, I don’t think there were many third graders who could describe what was meant by “One in Being”. Sure they could pronounce the words more easily than “consubstantial”, but I think the number who actually understood it was very, very small.

At least with 'Consubstantial", most third graders would recognize that they do NOT understand it, and this is a great opportunity for their parents, pastors or religious teachers to explain the concept to them. With “One in Being”, most never would have even asked.
Good point. Like I said, I don’t mind it, because I understand the word. Most people will stumble on it though.
 
I don’t mind saying consubstantial, but **One in Being **made more sense to me. I know the term consubstantial, but it is a mouthful to say. I want the third graders to understand as well as the adults. Using the term consubstantial reminded me that some protestants use the term “consubstantiation” instead of “transubstantiation” to explain the presence of Jesus in the bread and wine. So it is more confusing than clarifying.
It’s easier for younger people to pick up on language changes than adults. They are at the age where the brain has greater language acquisition abilities. That’s why immigrant children pick up a new language at least 10 times faster than their parents!

I still remember the first translation into English in the 60s. I was in the primary grades then, so that explains it. My mother and older sister don’t remember it at all. They were past the “window” of time open for such things.

Did you ever notice how children love pronouncing big words? Just think of “supercalifragilisticexpialadocious”. “Consubstantial” dwarfs in comparison.

Anyone erudite enough to study and understand the difference between “transubstantiation” and “consubstantiation” is able to understand the term “consubstantial”.
 
I don’t mind saying consubstantial, but **One in Being **made more sense to me.
It’s not about whether or not you mind saying it, nor what made more sense just to you.
I want the third graders to understand as well as the adults.
Again, it’s not about what you “want”. It’s about what is TRUE all the way across the board - for 3rd graders as well as theologians. Humans have been blessed with the ability to learn. Stop worrying about this one word! If you find a child or someone else weeping after Mass because of their inability to understand this one word, then explain it to them!
 
Chill. I am not worrying, only observing.
It’s not about whether or not you mind saying it, nor what made more sense just to you.

Again, it’s not about what you “want”. It’s about what is TRUE all the way across the board - for 3rd graders as well as theologians. Humans have been blessed with the ability to learn. Stop worrying about this one word! If you find a child or someone else weeping after Mass because of their inability to understand this one word, then explain it to them!
 
Did some old English translations that used “consubstantial”? Or did they all use “of one substance with”?

It just seems to me that “consubstantial with” is redundant.

.
.
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…that and I also do distracted when I hear the word consubstantiation and start thinking about Lutheranism.
 
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