Could a priest deny communion to someone who is openly pro choice?

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Julia_Mae said:
Again, this is not what Rence said. Or what I say. Yes, we are “against abortion.” Which is different than being pro-choice. Now, being pro-choice doesn’t necessarily mean thinking anyone should be able to walk into a clinic any time and demand an abortion. It actually means we were fine on the pre-Roe v Wade days, when there were exceptions for obtaining abortions in certain extreme cases as determined by a woman and her doctor.
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Okay. I was under the impression that the poster was not promoting abortion, nor condemning it. Don’t forget what Jesus said about the lukewarm.

As far as your last sentence, that goes against the Churches teachings. Remember, the Catholic religion is a not a cafeteria, we cannot pick and choose what we want to believe, as Blessed Pope John Paul has said…
 
Julia_Mae said:
Some priests don’t think keeping people from Jesus is the best way to do that.
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Withholding Communion does not “keep people from Jesus.” Jesus is not JUST in the blessed sacrament, you know. He moves in mysterious ways. Receiving and distributing Communion (-during Mass, at any rate) is a public act. It someone has publicly denied Church teaching, I think a priest OWES it to that person to deny Communion—it’s a sign of how serious a matter public repudiation of Church teaching is. I don’t think priests help anyone by participating in the unworthy reception of Communion.
 
People seem to think that there are only two positions regarding abortion, either you’re pro-choice or pro-life.

I think there is a third position that falls somewhere in between.

I know Catholic women who would probably call themselves pro-choice. I’m sure that these women would never have an abortion or encourage anyone to have an abortion.

I think that when some people say they are pro-choice, they just mean that they don’t think it does much good to have strict secular laws against abortion, even though they personally believe that it is morally wrong.

I think it might be something like if you don’t smoke, have never smoked in your life, never encouraged anyone to smoke, but you don’t think it would do any good to have strict secular laws against smoking. Smoking kills, just like abortion kills, but it does take longer.

This is why I don’t get upset if I see a “pro-choice” Catholic going to communion.
 
Rence said:
If a priest knows that someone is actively pro-choice, I think they can refuse the person Communion. But the three priests I have shared my views with told me that I am still fit for Communion because I don’t act on my belief. I don’t picket, I don’t lobby, I don’t help or participate or even encourage abortion. I will share my opinion if asked, but I will reiterate Church teaching. But I truly do believe that in certain circumstances it’s a choice that a woman should continue to be able to make (such as when her health is at risk, or even taking emergency contraception at the ER after a rape), and I don’t believe autonomy and the freedom to make decisions that direct her healthcare should ever by trumped by another person’s religious beliefs. My priests have told me I can still have Communion with these views, and because I don’t participate/encourage/aid or have anything to do with abortion aside from my own personal beliefs and values.
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It depends on whether a person rejects the infallible Church teaching on abortion or accepts it. If a Catholic rejects any infallible teaching then that is heresy and such a person is automatically excommunicated. They don’t need to participate in or encourage abortion. It is sufficient that the Church teaching is rejected.
The Church teaches that all direct abortion is intrinsically evil and is forbidden and this binds all Catholics.
 
thistle said:
It depends on whether a person rejects the infallible Church teaching on abortion or accepts it. If a Catholic rejects any infallible teaching then that is heresy and such a person is automatically excommunicated. They don’t need to participate in or encourage abortion. It is sufficient that the Church teaching is rejected.
The Church teaches that all direct abortion is intrinsically evil and is forbidden and this binds all Catholics.
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No offense, but I’ll go with what real live priests (that are involved in daily life rather than passer by’s online) say to me. I mean, CAF is a GREAT resource and I’ve learned a lot here. But real live priests trump what I read online…
 
Julia_Mae said:
Again, this is not what Rence said. Or what I say. Yes, we are “against abortion.” Which is different than being pro-choice. Now, being pro-choice doesn’t necessarily mean thinking anyone should be able to walk into a clinic any time and demand an abortion. It actually means we were fine on the pre-Roe v Wade days, when there were exceptions for obtaining abortions in certain extreme cases as determined by a woman and her doctor.
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Does it matter? Being publically pro-choice and being publically pro-abortion are equal in terms of the scandal that would be given should a person with either viewpoint present him/her self for Communion.
Julia_Mae said:
No, this isn’t Rence’s logic at all. The post you responded to clearly says: I don’t act on my belief… which is entirely different from a gay person having sex. That would be acting.
Racists get to receive the Eucharist. Even openly racist persons who tout their beliefs.
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Having sex is only one way that a homosexual might be acting on his/her inclinations.

And no, a person who publically espoused racist views should not present him/herself for Communion either.
 
Rence said:
No offense, but I’ll go with what real live priests (that are involved in daily life rather than passer by’s online) say to me. I mean, CAF is a GREAT resource and I’ve learned a lot here. But real live priests trump what I read online…
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No offence to you either but I consulted with a priest friend and mentor of mine who also has a colleague priest who is a canon lawyer.
They said you are wrong or have misunderstood what you were told.

Can. 751** Heresy is the obstinate denial or doubt, after baptism, of a truth which must be believed by divine and catholic faith.** Apostasy is the total repudiation of the christian faith. Schism is the withdrawal of submission to the Supreme Pontiff or from communion with the members of the Church subject to him.

CCC 2089 Incredulity is the neglect of revealed truth or the willful refusal to assent to it. "Heresy is the obstinate post-baptismal denial of some truth which must be believed with divine and catholic faith, or it is likewise an obstinate doubt concerning the same; apostasy is the total repudiation of the Christian faith; schism is the refusal of submission to the Roman Pontiff or of communion with the members of the Church subject to him."
 
Rence said:
No offense, but I’ll go with what real live priests (that are involved in daily life rather than passer by’s online) say to me. I mean, CAF is a GREAT resource and I’ve learned a lot here. But real live priests trump what I read online…
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You would be wise to listen to Thisle. I have been here on Caf for a couple years and have never seen Thistle go against the Churches teachings.

As far as “real live priests” are concerned, make sure you are consulting with ones that teach the TRUTH. I had 2 priest tell me it was okay to used contraceptives if I wanted. I finally was able to talk to MY priest that was on vacation and, of course, he steered me in the right direction.
 
Listener said:
People seem to think that there are only two positions regarding abortion, either you’re pro-choice or pro-life.

I think there is a third position that falls somewhere in between.

I know Catholic women who would probably call themselves pro-choice. I’m sure that these women would never have an abortion or encourage anyone to have an abortion.

I think that when some people say they are pro-choice, they just mean that they don’t think it does much good to have strict secular laws against abortion, even though they personally believe that it is morally wrong.

I think it might be something like if you don’t smoke, have never smoked in your life, never encouraged anyone to smoke, but you don’t think it would do any good to have strict secular laws against smoking. Smoking kills, just like abortion kills, but it does take longer.

This is why I don’t get upset if I see a “pro-choice” Catholic going to communion.
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Again, remember what Jesus said about the “Lukewarm”…

Rev 3:15-16

15 I know your deeds, that you are neither cold nor hot; I wish that you were cold or hot. 16 So because you are lukewarm, and neither hot nor cold, I will spit you out of My mouth.
 
Listener said:
People seem to think that there are only two positions regarding abortion, either you’re pro-choice or pro-life.

I think there is a third position that falls somewhere in between.

I know Catholic women who would probably call themselves pro-choice. I’m sure that these women would never have an abortion or encourage anyone to have an abortion.

I think that when some people say they are pro-choice, they just mean that they don’t think it does much good to have strict secular laws against abortion, even though they personally believe that it is morally wrong.

I think it might be something like if you don’t smoke, have never smoked in your life, never encouraged anyone to smoke, but you don’t think it would do any good to have strict secular laws against smoking. Smoking kills, just like abortion kills, but it does take longer.

This is why I don’t get upset if I see a “pro-choice” Catholic going to communion.
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That’s not a very good analogy. Smoking kills sometimes. Abortion kills every time. Smoking is not itself immoral. Abortion is.

Yes, there are people in that middle group. But they are still espousing a viewpoint that is against Church teaching. Whether you call that heresy, dissidence or disobedience, it still puts them outside of being in a state of grace and they still should not present themselves for Communion.
 
thistle said:
No offence to you either but I consulted with a priest friend and mentor of mine who also has a colleague priest who is a canon lawyer.
They said you are wrong or have misunderstood what you were told.
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No offense, but not only do you not know me, but you weren’t present during my converations with the priests. You have no idea if I am in ‘obstinate denial or doubt’. I’m not being obstinate, but I am not going to be pushed around or bullied either. So again, I’ll go with the real live priess, rather than someone online.
 
Corki said:
That’s not a very good analogy. Smoking kills sometimes. Abortion kills every time. Smoking is not itself immoral. Abortion is.

Yes, there are people in that middle group. But they are still espousing a viewpoint that is against Church teaching. Whether you call that heresy, dissidence or disobedience, it still puts them outside of being in a state of grace and they still should not present themselves for Communion.
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If everyone in the USA shared the above position on abortion, how many abortions would there be? ZERO! Even though I don’t share this position, it is certainly a lot more pro life than those people who have had abortions, doctors who perform abortions, and those who encourage others to have abortions. And how on earth would you know that these people are not in the State of Grace?
 
Rence said:
No offense, but not only do you not know me, but you weren’t present during my converations with the priests. You have no idea if I am in ‘obstinate denial or doubt’. I’m not being obstinate, but I am not going to be pushed around or bullied either. So again, I’ll go with the real live priess, rather than someone online.
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“someone online”?? You are in an online forum. Are you saying everyone’s answers have to agree with you or they are wrong?

I quoted you the actual Church teachings. Nobody, not even priests can deviate from the teachings.

The Church teachings:

Can. 751 Heresy is the obstinate denial or doubt, after baptism, of a truth which must be believed by divine and catholic faith. Apostasy is the total repudiation of the christian faith. Schism is the withdrawal of submission to the Supreme Pontiff or from communion with the members of the Church subject to him.

CCC 2089 Incredulity is the neglect of revealed truth or the willful refusal to assent to it. "Heresy is the obstinate post-baptismal denial of some truth which must be believed with divine and catholic faith, or it is likewise an obstinate doubt concerning the same; apostasy is the total repudiation of the Christian faith; schism is the refusal of submission to the Roman Pontiff or of communion with the members of the Church subject to him."

To give an example, under your thought process if a Catholic rejects that murder is a sin of grave matter they could still receive Communion as long as they didn’t actually murder someone or encourage murder to be committed.
 
thistle said:
“someone online”?? You are in an online forum. Are you saying everyone’s answers have to agree with you or they are wrong?
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No, I never ever said everyone’s answers have to agree with me or their wrong. What I said was, and these are my exact words: "No offense, but I’ll go with what real live priests (that are involved in daily life rather than passer by’s online) say to me. I mean, CAF is a GREAT resource and I’ve learned a lot here. But real live priests trump what I read online… "
 
Rence said:
No, I never ever said everyone’s answers have to agree with me or their wrong. What I said was, and these are my exact words: "No offense, but I’ll go with what real live priests (that are involved in daily life rather than passer by’s online) say to me. I mean, CAF is a GREAT resource and I’ve learned a lot here. But real live priests trump what I read online… "
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Priests have to follow the Church teachings. Sadly, not all do. I quoted the Church teachings to you.
It is enough for anyone to reject or have an obstinate doubt about an infallible teaching to make it heresy. In the case of abortion rejecting or having an obstinate doubt about the teaching is heresy and a sin of grave matter and such a person may not receive Communion. Such a person is not required to have an abortion or encourage abortion to have committed heresy and a sin of grave matter.
 
benjammin said:
could a priest deny a person if they walked up to receive Our Lord?
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If the person is a public sinner, especially one excommunicated, yes - as far as I know.

As for being “openly pro-choice”, not sure…as thistle says, it could be heresy, but as we said somewhere else, if she disagrees but is obedient to the Church and does not “promote” abortion…

Finally, won’t his or her confessor play an important role here? 🤷
 
R_C said:
If the person is a public sinner, especially one excommunicated, yes - as far as I know.

As for being “openly pro-choice”, not sure…as thistle says, it could be heresy, but as we said somewhere else, if she disagrees but is obedient to the Church and does not “promote” abortion…

Finally, won’t his or her confessor play an important role here? 🤷
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Finally! Back on topic.

A priest CAN at least defer giving Communion publically to someone who has publically expressed beliefs contrary to Church teaching. The priest has to weigh the “right” to Communion against the possibility of giving scandal or allowing sacrilege. A priest could, for example, ask the Communicant to see him after Mass to acertain if the person had recently had a change of heart and if so, give him Communion at that time.

The fact is, most priests don’t have that luxury in the US where everyone lines up and **expects **to receive. There are some Bishops that have given specific instructions but most leave it up to the priest.

When Communion is a public act, there is more to it than just being properly disposed. That’s why, for example, the guide to Confessors, recommends that a couple in an invalid marriage but living as brother and sister receive Communion only at a parish where their situation is not known. This is to avoid giving scandal not because the couple are not properly disposed.
 
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