Could absence of gun control have saved VT victims?

[vern_humphrey]

Amazing! 32 unarmed people died – most of them in their late teens or early 20s, and yet an armed 82-year old woman was able to stop a criminal.

Armed Miss America 1944 stops intruder
Fri Apr 20, 8:16 PM ET

WAYNESBURG, Ky. - Miss America 1944 has a talent that likely has never appeared on a beauty pageant stage: She fired a handgun to shoot out a vehicle’s tires and stop an intruder.
Venus Ramey, 82, confronted a man on her farm in south-central Kentucky last week after she saw her dog run into a storage building where thieves had previously made off with old farm equipment.

Ramey said the man told her he would leave. “I said, ‘Oh, no you won’t,’ and I shot their tires so they couldn’t leave,” Ramey said.

She had to balance on her walker as she pulled out a snub-nosed 38-caliber handgun.

“I didn’t even think twice. I just went and did it,” she said. “If they’d even dared come close to me, they’d be 6 feet under by now.”

Ramey then flagged down a passing motorist, who called 911.

Curtis Parrish of Ohio was charged with misdemeanor trespassing, Deputy Dan Gilliam said. The man’s hometown wasn’t immediately available. Three other people were questioned but were not arrested.

After winning the pageant with her singing, dancing and comedic talents, Ramey sold war bonds and her picture was adorned on a B-17 that made missions over Germany in World War II, according to the Miss America Web site.

Ramey lived in Cincinnati for several years and was instrumental in helping rejuvenate Over-the-Rhine historic buildings. She returned to Kentucky in 1990 to live on her farm.

“I’m trying to live a quiet, peaceful life and stay out of trouble, and all it is, is one thing after another,” she said.

 

[Sir_Knight]

Really? When did they ban ALL guns?

VT banned guns on campus and look what happened! Washington, DC banned all gun and they have the highest violent crime rate in the country. I can go on and on.

So you think they should legalise drugs?

I didn’t say that, did I?

So you think they should get rid of all laws?

I think that laws which are unconstitutional need to be re-examined.

What a strange argument you’re making

How so?

 

[Sir_Knight]

You’d be even more safe with grenades and land mines about your property. Do you want them legal too?

I don’t see how land mines & grenades would have helped the VT victims but I do see how some guns in the hands of the good guys might have saved a lot of lives.

 

[Sir_Knight]

It is the responsibility of EVERY parent to teach their children right from wrong.

You can’t. When you try to legislate something, that when you start getting into trouble because most people start focusing on the letter of the law instead of the spirit of the law.

How many school massacres did we have half a century ago when parents kept guns out in the open?

Growing up, I don’t recall a single report of this ever happening and while it MAY have happened, it HAD TO happen LESS often than now otherwise we would have heard about it.

We’re talking about being PREPARED. You prepare for other things in life, why not preparing to protect yourself?

You don’t but you need to be prepared with the BEST means available to you. If not the gun, what do you view as a BETTER means of defense?

The sword of Christ’s era would be the equivelant of what a handgun is today. I believe I already said that.

The BEST means of accomplishing something changes as technology developes. The sword during Jesus’s time was the BEST means of self defense. It could be easily carried and hidden on a person of that era. You can not show me a BETTER means of PERSONAL defense from that time period. In like regards, the gun is today the BEST means of PERSONAL defense in MOST cases.

Two swords would have been enough for a group of 12 strong men to protect themselves from a wild animal or a small group of robbers.

And how did you come to that conclusion from the above statement?

 

[Sir_Knight]

Hey, drugs are through our schools and society. They’re everywhere. It would be really difficult to control them, so let’s just not bother and legalise drugs.

Drugs can not be used for positive purposes. Where as, a gun can be used to commit a crime or prevent a crime. If you can’t get the guns out of the hands of the bad guys, which is evident by the fact that drugs can not be taken out of their hands either, then it doesn’t make sense to take guns out of the hands of the good guys because you are then left with a society with the guns in the hands of the bad guys.

Not the type of society that I think most people would want to live in.

 

[Brendan]

I firmly believe that the eradication of guns would, in fact, have saved many lives at VT and in other tragic shootings.

And how do you think this ‘eradication’ could be possible.

A firearm can be easily made with tools you can buy at any decent sized hardware store ( drill press, lathe and a dremel). The skill set needed is not that different from basic carpentry\wood working.

I should know, I made one in my apartment once.

Now compare that to the production of crack cocaine, which requires college level chemistry and difficult to find source chemicals.

If guns are outlawed, you can expect 10-20 times more places in a given city making handguns that you would crack cocainie.

They would be much easier for a criminal to find than crack, and I’m sure you have an idea on how much THAT is.

 

[Sir_Knight]

Sir Knight,

I’m fairly good at martial arts and have defended myself in street fights but I have no experience with guns. I’ve got a wife, kid, apartment and a car to protect. Also my apartment is ground floor and in a low crime neighborhood. My job is in a high crime gun free zone. We average a shooting death every two or three years in the gun free workplace and several times a year in the surrounding neighborhood.

So how do I go about arming myself?

Take a gun safety course in your area. They’ll be able to guide you.

Are there certain kinds of guns I should get first?

Depends what your goals are? Home defense? Do you plan on applying for a concealed carry license and carry the gun? What is the climate where you live? What size are you? All of these things factor into what gun would be best for you.

Also, the wife is concerned about toxins so any non-toxic solutions (lead free bullets?) would be appreciated.

Cor-Bon makes an all copper bullet. I believe that Taurus also makes them as well.

 

[Brendan]

No…

I live in a country which has tight *** gun control laws and it’s been prooven statistically to work.

Really?

Russia has even tightere gun control laws than Australia, but it’s murder rate is MUCH higher,

and Swizterland and Israel have even fewer restrictions than the US does, with murder rates that are lower.

So what statistics are you talking about here?

And what happened to the violent crime rate over all, ( muggings, rape etc…)

 

[system]

Now compare that to the production of crack cocaine, which requires college level chemistry and difficult to find source chemicals.

Crack cocaine requires cocaine and baking soda, and that high-tech device: a candle. College level chemistry is not needed.
find another example for your argument.

 

[Brendan]

Crack cocaine requires cocaine and baking soda, and that high-tech device: a candle. College level chemistry is not needed.
find another example for your argument.

The cocaine must be processed out of the Coca plant.

THAT requires chemical knowledge. (and imported raw material)

Making a handgun requires someone who paid attention in High School shop class, scrap steel from a junk yard and a trip to Home Depot.

Thats what I needed to make Mine

( a near exact replica of a 1596 Elizabethan Snaphaunce Carbine)

http://home.comcast.net/~bnewell100460/images/snaphaunce2.JPG

It’s actually more complex than a revolver, as I cared about the finishing features and revolvers don’t have a main spring that needs to be annealed from scrap truck spring metal

If I wanted to make a modern handgun, I’d have one within a week. A guy who does handier with metal work (such as a mechanic or a machinist) would have one within a day or two.

 

[vluvski]

I don’t see how land mines & grenades would have helped the VT victims but I do see how some guns in the hands of the good guys might have saved a lot of lives.

The difference between an armed citizen and a land mine is intelligence. I or my husband have the intelligence to discern whether someone is harmlessly wandering into our yard, or approaching with ill intentions.

 

[system]

The cocaine must be processed out of the Coca plant…

Now you’re just being Ridiculous. :nope:

Drug smugglers are not bringing unprocessed cocaine into the country.

That happens thousands of miles away from the people making crack in their kitchen!

You still need an example that works

 

[Brendan]

Now you’re just being Ridiculous. :nope:

Drug smugglers are not bringing unprocessed cocaine into the country.

That happens thousands of miles away from the people making crack in their kitchen!

You still need an example that works

No, that example work fine. If you look at my example, I also mentioned the regulation of the core ingredients. The core ingredent of crack cocaine is controlled.

Steel is not a controlled substance. You can get as much high quality steel as you want from local junk yards in the form of truck springs, axles and drive shafts. All legally and incredibly cheaply (enough steel to make a revolver will cost you under a buck).

It would be really interesting to see the BATF try and track steel and drill press sales to the extent that would even come close to impeding an underground firearms industry.

 

[mary_bobo]

No…

I live in a country which has tight *** gun control laws and it’s been prooven statistically to work. It’s harder to smuggle a large metal object through Customs than it is to smuggle roughly the same amount of drugs. People who say it is as easy to smuggle guns, as it is to smuggle Drugs, in to the country don’t understand how easily detectable Metal is as opposed to powder or tablets.

Drugs have to be sniffed out by Dogs, Metal cannot be conceiled in an x-ray machine or when you go through a metal detector, unlike drugs. Why do you think the 9/11 hyjackers didn’t bother trying to beat the system and get guns on board the airplanes?

Since 1990 when the first state government gun control laws came into effect in Australia, there has been a significant decline in Shooting deaths. Then the Laws were federalised in 1996 and that was when the figures declined by more than 350 lives on average which is significant in Australia with it’s population of 18 million.

Like in Japan and the UK, in Australia most of the shooting deaths are significantly now “Mafia/yakuza hits” or by farmers/hunters/police and not murder caused by civilians turning guns on each other.

What you people fail to recognise is that the Marfia and balck market tend to want to hoard the guns for themselves, and won’t actually be stupid enough to sell them to people who could potentially turn into “problems”. They don’t treat them like drugs, they like keeping their guns within their own community in order to have more power and control, especially when the latest mob war rolls around…

That is why gun control actually works in minimising shooting murders.

I have seen different stats than those you quoted, i.e. since the $500,000 buy-back program, Australia-wide homicides are up 6.2%. Assaults are up 9.6%, etc., but we all have to be very cautious in dealing with statistics as the parameters of each set of stats differs. The old “statistics don’t lie but statisticians do” must be taken into account. The facts are that the Australian rates were and are such a tiny percentage of the US crime rates, both before and after your gun buy-back program that they should not be compared. IMO, Australia is just a more passive country with historically far fewer crimes both gun related and non gun related than is true historically in the US. Populations in Australia, New Zealand, England and Canada are so dissimilar to the US that they should not be compared.

I do not put down what you are saying, but I cannot help but think that with all the guns that were turned in, that is not all of them. And a buy-back program would have a very hard time working in the US. As others have said, there are places here when owning firearms is forbidden, but that has not stopped crime even a little. I don’t claim to know what your Constitution says about guns, but ours is quite specific.

 

[vern_humphrey]

No, that example work fine. If you look at my example, I also mentioned the regulation of the core ingredients. The core ingredent of crack cocaine is controlled.

Steel is not a controlled substance. You can get as much high quality steel as you want from local junk yards in the form of truck springs, axles and drive shafts. All legally and incredibly cheaply (enough steel to make a revolver will cost you under a buck).

It would be really interesting to see the BATF try and track steel and drill press sales to the extent that would even come close to impeding an underground firearms industry.

When I was an adviser on my first tour in Viet Nam, we captured a .45 automatic pistol, completely handmade in a jungle workshop – and it worked fine.

Go to Pakistan and you will find illegal gunshops operating openly and manufacturing all sorts of guns – mostly with hand tools!

 

[mgrobertson79]

First, Let me say I do not advocate the ownership of weapons of war(i.e. Machine Guns, Grenades, Nuclear Weapons)as these are not used for self defense or sporting purposes.

There is no practical way to control criminals from obtaining firearms for use in their crimes. This has been tried, they only go elsewhere where it is easier to get them and then bring them to the crime scene. Gun control in no way lessens gun crimes. Look at Chicago. The third largest city in America with the no 1 highest murder rate. Why is this? Chicago has had a gun ban for many years. Criminals wouldn’t break the law and obtain a gun to kill someone, would they?

We could build huge prisons and lock all these people up, if we knew who they were. This would be costly and still ineffective. The only way to disarm the citizens of America is to disarm both Law Enforcement and Military as well. That we we can roll out the red carpet for the terrorist, both foreign and domestic(i.e. murderers, gangbangers, drug dealers).

These I just mentioned are not generally thought of as terrorist, but think about it. What do they do? How do the achieve their objective?

We have a right to defend ourselves. It is as much a right as the right of an unborn child to be born. If anybody thinks I don’t have a right to live or any other innocent person, let it be known.

The church has always acknowledged the right of the individual to defend themselves. This may involve the taking of the unjust aggressors life. This is not a mortal sin. It is only in the last decade or two that people have begun denying the right to life, in self defense cases. This is a sin. For you to effectively make me defenseless and leave me to die, that makes you culpable in my death. Think about it.

Guns do not kill people, people kill people. I carry a Sig P229 everywhere I go, and refuse to go where it and therefore I am not welcome. An attacker can and will choose a target where he thinks will be the least amount of resistance. If he intends on killing, he will kill. I will die before you or anyone else disarms me. It is my right, under both Gods law and the Constitution of the United States of America for me to keep and Bear arms in the defense of myself, my family and my neighbor.

Are you really ready to meet your maker? Are you willing to put your life in the hands of a madman, as we saw at Virginia Tech? Can you live with yourself if you know your actions lead to their death? These are questions that demand an answer. Forget the propaganda the media and politicians have fed you. What do you believe?

 

[colliric]

All valid points although naive. My question was now that millions of guns are out there, what now? To intimate that we should be lobbying for machine guns is jesting, I hope. Surely you are not serious, right? You have outlined the problem, now how about a solution.

Generous buy back scheme and a fine or jail time if you refuse to sell your gun back to the government for at least the same amount of money you payed for it.

This worked in Australia and eventually phased guns out after only about a year or so.

People want money, not jail time.

 

[mary_bobo]

Generous buy back scheme and a fine or jail time if you refuse to sell your gun back to the government for at least the same amount of money you payed for it.

This worked in Australia and eventually phased guns out after only about a year or so.

People want money, not jail time.

Glad it worked for you. And they give jail time to those who do not comply? Are they going to search homes to find anyone who has not obeyed the order?

 

[didididi]

Glad it worked for you. And they give jail time to those who do not comply? Are they going to search homes to find anyone who has not obeyed the order?

Yes. They have, and they do with guns acquired legally.

If (for instance) you write that you are a sports shooter but you do not go to any clubs for an extended period, they will revoke your gun licence.

Also once every while they come to check that guns are in a secure safe, and that ammunition is stored separately.

 

[mary_bobo]

Yes. They have, and they do with guns acquired legally.

If (for instance) you write that you are a sports shooter but you do not go to any clubs for an extended period, they will revoke your gun licence.

Also once every while they come to check that guns are in a secure safe, and that ammunition is stored separately.

Fascinating. That would never fly here.