Could America be Babylon the Great?

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dkward2:
I admit that that much of Revelation has already happened; however, I do not agree that it must be confined to it’s time. The Books of Daniel and Isaiah provide clear evidence that coded prophecy often transcends the time it is written in.
Two things can be said about this.

The prophecy found Daniel and Isaiah were only definitively recognized as having been fulfilled in Christ after the fact by the authoritative teaching Church, not by individual believers or little “Bible churches” sitting around trying to tie current events to Bible passages.

Also, as I mentioned above, the last two chapters of the Book of Revelation are explicitly about the Second Coming and God’s ultimate triumph over evil. However, the rest of the Book is not, and it is an abuse of Scripture to try to sit around and force into some kind of puzzle-picture about the future. As I also said above, this uniquely American Protestant approach to Scripture has only been around for 150 or so years. The arrogant presumption is that for 2000 years, these Scriptures were worthless to believers and only we, in 21st century US of A REALLY know what it means. :rolleyes: Even the parts of the Book of Revelation that ARE about the future were not written for us to crack like a code to match up with world history; it is meant to reassure that in the end, whenever that may be, God will triumph over evil and if we presevere with him, will share our eternal reward with him forever.

For a more clear-eyed view of biblical prophecy, I HIGHLY recommend Steve Wood’s CD series Introduction To Prophecy, available at www.dads.org.
 
Well, I’m not trying to suggest anything but I ran across a reading in Simon Birch’s Trail, Tribulation and Triumph about a little girl in Czechlosovakia. She said this about America. She said that the Christians here were grateful for their sufferings, but they were afraid of losing their cross should communism fall. Cause they did not want those bad influences from America. She said, “I don’t see how anyone could keep the faith in a culture like that”.
 
Maybe Revelation refers to Iraq?
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trustmc:
Nelson, the Book of Revelation describes with much symbolism the events of the first century. Here are some plausible explanations provided by Catholic scholars:
  • Babylon was the code word for Rome, “the city on seven hills” from which the persecution of Christians and the destruction of Jeruselem were directed.
Babylon might be code word for…Babylon, Iraq!
  • The Whore of Babylon was apostate Jeruselem that rejected Christ during the first post-Resurrection generation of Jews.
The Whore of Babylon: Taliban and Osama ibn Laden
  • The New Jeruselem is the Church.
The New Jerusalem: a new, democratic, freedom-of-religion Middle East?
  • The Millenium is the age of the Church, namely the period between Pentecost and the 2nd Coming of Christ.
The Millennium as a new age of peace, as peace spreads throughout the Middle East.
  • The Beast marked by 666 is Emperor Nero who persecuted the Christians and executed St. Peter in 64 A.D.
The Beast marked by 666 was Saddam Husayn al-Khatab (number of letters of his name: 6, 6, 6 (excluding the article “al”).
  • The seven-year Tribulation is the period between 63 and 70 A.D. when Rome beseiged Israel.
The seven-year Tribulation: from start of war in Iraq (2003) to end (2010).
  • The northern armies were the Roman legions, and Armogedon was the destruction of the Temple along with the rest of Jeruselem.
The northern armies: the Kurds!
 
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DaMaMaXiMuS:
Greetings all,

In the church I used to belong to prior to coming home this past summer, thought that Babylon the Great was America. They used all the popular scriptures from Revelations about Babylon, only they attributed them to America. As well some scriptures in Jeremiah that seemed to correlate with those in revelation.
Babylon the great was Rome-more specifically Rome during the rule of Caesar Nero-who’s name , BTW, sums up to 666
 
I agree that it would be useless to speculate about “end-times scenarios, specific governments and nations, disasters, etc.” because it is worthless. For one, to the degree that the world rejects the teachings and grace of the Church, there will be temporal problems. Hence, if we have a major apostasy, we can simply expect to suffer. Knowing the minor historical details is of little use. Secondly, God does not have a vendetta against any one nation or another (barring, of course, the Gentile/Jew distinction, in that the Gentiles and Jews have a somewhat different relationship to God in the course of Salvation History in the sense of when they accept the Revelation).

However, saying the Fundamentalist approach is useless does not therefore imply that any other interpretation besides the application to first century is useless. Scripture can have more than one layer of meaning! Of course, the book addresses, on one level, what happened in the Early Church, but history goes on! The only thing is that, to understand the history, we need to look at the spiritual situations in the ages of history, because that is what ultimately shapes that history. More specifically, Christ has revealed what the ultimate source of peace and prosperity is: to know the truths about God and to live them. But we can only know what to believe from the Church, and we cannot live what we believe without grace, the essential dispenser of which is the Church as well. Hence, the prophecy in the Book, if it were to be about “world history,” would address the questions of: “To what degree does the world believe in and cooperate with the truths and graces of the Church, and to what degree does it not?”

On that note, since the Church’s triumph over paganism in the Middle Ages, there has been a gradual spiritual decline (setting aside minor recoveries for the Church at each step) until now. That the Book would, in some sense, deal with this would not be “useless” or “arrogant,” for then it would actually be delving into the ultimate root of man’s problems.

For example, we have the contrast between those with the Seal of God in their foreheads (the 144,000) and those with the mark of the beast. That this would allegorically portray persons who are, respectively, total friends of God (i.e., devout Catholics, those who recognize that the truth comes from God) and total enemies of God (i.e., apostates, persons who believe that they are their own gods and determine for themselves what to believe and do, irrespective of any religion) would not be ludicrous, just as the late pope commented that the “False Prophet” of our day is materialism, an ideology that leads men to “worship the beast,” which, in its ultimate sense, represents man’s fallen nature and sinful resistance to God and His Plan across the whole spectrum of Salvation history. This is, in fact, how certain Early Fathers saw the beast.

In addition, of course, there are "gray areas" between these extremes, which also seems to be addressed in the Book, specifically with the three “great woes.” That is, recalling the gradual spiritual decline above, the three great woes could, on one level of meaning, be an allusion to this process.

That Catholic Revelation through Scripture provides info on both the beginning and end of Church history (i.e., the persecutions of Rome and the Church’s triumph in the beginning, and the fullness of Gentiles, Jews and apostasy at the end) does not seem to me to suggest that there is necessarily nothing in between of any significance. For example, the mystics (see here) suggest a minor apostasy and tribulation that will be followed by the reunion of Christians and a great Reign of the Gospel and Peace, all prior to the very end. That the Church would discover that Revelation deals with some of these developments is not to be discarded. There was a development of God’s Plan in the OT until Christ, and the Plan continues into the age of the Church. Hence, that Scripture would contain what the plan is in its completion in the course of the Church age, provided it addresses it, again, from a spiritual perspective, I do not deem “useless” or “sensational.” In fact, it would really be giving us insights into God’s Love and Plan for humanity, giving us a psychological and spiritual understanding of the whole of Salvation History, both from the perspective of man’s sinful resistance, as well as God’s loving redemption.
 
Ear-tickling error includes: Preterism–all prophecy fulfilled; Semi-Preterism–most prophecy fulfilled (Scott Hahn et alii); and Gnosticism, secret knowledge, as in saying 666 is hidden info.

Father William G. Most has extensive writings on the internet that the pop theologians have not bothered to read. Check 'em out, especially his Christology. Most’s teaching is that prophecy has multiple fulfillment, God’s way of foreshadowing the ultimate fulfillment. People, offices and events have foreshadowing types, as Elijah is a foreshadowing of John the Baptist, etc.

Preterism and Semi-Preterism erase the import of prophetic writings. Erased is the vital warning of taking the Mark of the Beast (RFID chip to me…) as an unforgiveable sin, a ticket to Hell. Former Homeland Security chief Tommy Thompson’s company makes RFID “slave” chips, and took his forearm implant as Katrina was making landfall. It will leave a “grievous boil.” Similarly Our Lady’s appearances at Mexico City and Fatima are exposited in Revelation 12. Chernobyl is the literal translation of Wormwood, the “burning element” that poisons many waters.

666 is not a secret code, it is the amount of profane tribute received from profane nations by King Solomon. Remember that taking profane wealth from conquered people cursed the nation and meant death. No looting bad guys. The 666 passage with Solomon also refers to the heavy taxes he demanded of his own people. 666 is a profane economic system, versus the sacred economic system of God that says no profane tribute, and mandates voluntary tithes and offerings.

I work for the IRS so pray for us to stay merciful and kind, and to stay in business, because a national sales tax effected through an RFID implant would make all transactions known and controlled by the government. The IRS is the largest voluntary tax collection process in the world, not that there are no penalties, but that compliance is voluntary. There is plenty of room for non-compliance, not possible with the RFID chip which has no privacy pin number, and is just a cattle tag that can track each person’s location and buying and selling. Pray for me, please, that I can be loving with staff and clients, and be “salt and light” at the IRS. It’s a really hard job physically and mentally. Remember, Tommy Thompson wants you! Thompson is waiting for the next disaster to compel his VeriChip implant for all cattle. Beware of FEMA…
 
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nordskoven:
I work for the IRS so pray for us to stay merciful and kind, and to stay in business, because a national sales tax effected through an RFID implant would make all transactions known and controlled by the government. The IRS is the largest voluntary tax collection process in the world, not that there are no penalties, but that compliance is voluntary. There is plenty of room for non-compliance, not possible with the RFID chip which has no privacy pin number, and is just a cattle tag that can track each person’s location and buying and selling. Pray for me, please, that I can be loving with staff and clients, and be “salt and light” at the IRS. It’s a really hard job physically and mentally. Remember, Tommy Thompson wants you! Thompson is waiting for the next disaster to compel his VeriChip implant for all cattle. Beware of FEMA…
Hey I work for the loyal opposition( CPA) I oppose the national sales tax for another reason-as it would cut my income bu about 60%!

What office do you work our of?
 
The reason this symbol is the most widely accepted symbol of the United States is because the shoe seems to fit. America has sunk to moral depths unimaginable a couple generations ago, such as killing babies in the womb when they are socially inconvenient. The nuclear family is becoming extinct. America is a leading exporter of filth and pornography.

It seems to make sense that this could be America, if you are looking at prophecy from the perspective of Washington. But it isn’t.

In Bible prophecy everything orients from Israel. John’s vision of the apocalypse is from the perspective of Israel, during the time of Jacob’s trouble, not America’s. The great city is Rome, and that is the city that will reign over the earth in the last days.

:twocents:

Blessings
 
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