Could any being without extension and form exist?

[STT]

This problem is related to the fact that to my opinion a being without an extension and a form cannot exist. In another hand we believe in existence of spiritual beings such as soul, Angels, Demons and God that they don’t have any extension and form. So I can not reconcile my opinion with the idea of spirituality. What do you think?

 

[JuanFlorencio]

This problem is related to the fact that to my opinion a being without an extension and a form cannot exist. In another hand we believe in existence of spiritual beings such as soul, Angels, Demons and God that they don’t have any extension and form. So I can not reconcile my opinion with the idea of spirituality. What do you think?

That you don’t think logically.

What is the basis for your thinking that a being without extension cannot exist?

 

[STT]

That you don’t think logically.

What is the basis for your thinking that a being without extension cannot exist?

Think of Angels for example. We believe that they think. Thinking however is a process. This process deals with information. You need form to keep information and process it. And you need extension in order to have form. This means that Angels cannot think because they have no form and extension. Therefore they are not a being.

 

[JuanFlorencio]

Think of Angels for example. We believe that they think. Thinking however is a process. This process deals with information. You need form to keep information and process it. And you need extension in order to have form. This means that Angels cannot think because they have no form and extension. Therefore they are not a being.

Try to put your ideas in order, STT.

Thinking is a process,
…a process which deals with information.
Form is needed to keep information.
Form is needed to process information…

Which “form” does this “information” have: “We believe that Angels think”?

 

[STT]

Try to put your ideas in order, STT.

Thinking is a process,
…a process which deals with information.
Form is needed to keep information.
Form is needed to process information…

Which “form” does this “information” have: “We believe that Angels think”?

To my understanding what you quoted is a state of mind (or a physical state). A state of mind is the result of a form and a process which these take place in our brains.

 

[JuanFlorencio]

To my understanding what you quoted is a state of mind (or a physical state). A state of mind is the result of a form and a process which these take place in our brains.

Specifically, which “form” does this “information” have: “We believe that Angels think”?

If you don’t know how to answer this question, STT, it is just because your opening post and your “answer” to my first question have no meaning.

 

[STT]

Specifically, which “form” does this “information” have: “We believe that Angels think”?

As I mentioned before what you quoted is a mental state. I forgot to mention that a mental state does not have any form. It is simply a state in which we could experience it depending on our brain activity.

If you don’t know how to answer this question, STT, it is just because your opening post and your “answer” to my first question have no meaning.

I understand that you want to attack to my argument from the angle that there are things which have no form and they exist, like thoughts. Thoughts however are not beings and as I mentioned they are states of mind. State of mind doesn’t have any form because it is simply a state. So to conclude, I make distinction between things such as thought which doesn’t have any form and beings such as Angel which are beings and have to have form. I stress again that here we are talking about beings.

 

[Richca]

This problem is related to the fact that to my opinion a being without an extension and a form cannot exist. In another hand we believe in existence of spiritual beings such as soul, Angels, Demons and God that they don’t have any extension and form. So I can not reconcile my opinion with the idea of spirituality. What do you think?

The human soul is a form, its the form of the body. God and the angels are pure forms, i.e., wholly spiritual and immaterial without extension because extension or quantity pertains to matter and bodies.

 

[STT]

The human soul is a form, its the form of the body.

Not until the person is dead.

God and the angels are pure forms, i.e., wholly spiritual and immaterial without extension because extension or quantity pertains to matter and bodies.

What do you mean with the pure form? How something can have form and have not extension?

 

[STT]

As I mentioned before what you quoted is a mental state. I forgot to mention that a mental state does not have any form. It is simply a state in which we could experience it depending on our brain activity.

I understand that you want to attack to my argument from the angle that there are things which have no form and they exist, like thoughts. Thoughts however are not beings and as I mentioned they are states of mind. State of mind doesn’t have any form because it is simply a state. So to conclude, I make distinction between things such as thought which doesn’t have any form and beings such as Angel which are beings and have to have form. I stress again that here we are talking about beings.

I think that need to correct myself. What you quoted as an example has a form when it is experienced as a mental state, thought. That is true because we can distinguish between different thoughts so they intrinsically have form. Thought like another mental state that we experience have extension as well (you can think of a long thought and short thought). This is hard to explain but you can think of vision.

 

[Lucretius]

And you need extension in order to have form.

No you don’t. This is easy to see from Aristotle’s perspective, but even in modern philosophy res extensa is defined in contrast to res cogitans (consciousness). Think of how Descartes deals with consciousness first and then tries to determine everything else.

This means that Angels cannot think because they have no form and extension.

Form is not mere structure. Form, fundamentally, is what the thing is. Related concepts include nature, essence, quiddity, etc.

If you want to see insights into form and why it is a necessary concept in our understanding of nature, I recommend going straight to Aristotle’s Physics, especially Books I and II, and reading and rereading them a couple times so that his concepts and approach sink in. Just let him talk, with you listening intently like a disciple listens to his master.

Afterwards, read Anima: you’re correct that intellect considers form, but I think you will be less confused once you better understand form.

Christi pax.

 

[seagal]

This problem is related to the fact that to my opinion a being without an extension and a form cannot exist. In another hand we believe in existence of spiritual beings such as soul, Angels, Demons and God that they don’t have any extension and form. So I can not reconcile my opinion with the idea of spirituality. What do you think?

The fact that you are able to think shows you have consciousness. What form does consciousness take? It is “housed”, so to speak, in your brain but you can’t point to a specific part of the brain and say “that’s me”. Psychologists have no idea how consciousness works. It’s more than just the mechanical workings of our brain. You can even remove some parts of the brain and still be “you”. So a being (you) can exist without form, at least to a certain extent.

Just my :twocents:

 

[JuanFlorencio]

I think that need to correct myself. What you quoted as an example has a form when it is experienced as a mental state, thought. That is true because we can distinguish between different thoughts so they intrinsically have form. Thought like another mental state that we experience have extension as well (you can think of a long thought and short thought). This is hard to explain but you can think of vision.

Well, then you should be able to answer my question, which is very specific. Please, do it, and be specific as well.

And I have another couple of questions for you now: How do you define a “state” in general? And, how do you define a mental state?

 

[EnosJadon]

JuanFlorencio, Lucretius, Richca, seagal, et al., but if one allows that the soul/consciousness can exist without physical form, mustn’t one accept that solipsism may actually be true?

 

[GEddie]

Thinking is a process. Knowledge however, is not.

We as human beings need to think, because we begin our being with empty heads and need to fill them. But there is no reason to believe that other beings need to “think” per se.

ICXC NIKA

 

[STT]

No you don’t. This is easy to see from Aristotle’s perspective, but even in modern philosophy res extensa is defined in contrast to res cogitans (consciousness). Think of how Descartes deals with consciousness first and then tries to determine everything else.

I don’t understand. Consciousness is a state. We say conscious state and unconscious state.

Form is not mere structure. Form, fundamentally, is what the thing is. Related concepts include nature, essence, quiddity, etc.

You of course can define form as you wish. I am interested in the form as shape.

If you want to see insights into form and why it is a necessary concept in our understanding of nature, I recommend going straight to Aristotle’s Physics, especially Books I and II, and reading and rereading them a couple times so that his concepts and approach sink in. Just let him talk, with you listening intently like a disciple listens to his master.

Afterwards, read Anima: you’re correct that intellect considers form, but I think you will be less confused once you better understand form.

Christi pax.

I am afraid I don’t have tome to read three books to understand what you have in your mind. It would be nice of you if you could please elaborate.

 

[STT]

The fact that you are able to think shows you have consciousness. What form does consciousness take?

Consciousness is a state. It of course doesn’t have any form. Consciousness is not a being or thing.

It is “housed”, so to speak, in your brain but you can’t point to a specific part of the brain and say “that’s me”.

Consciousness is a state which is the result of brain process so it doesn’t need any place.

Psychologists have no idea how consciousness works. It’s more than just the mechanical workings of our brain.

Consciousnesses is an state of brain so it doesn’t work. That is brain which functions.

You can even remove some parts of the brain and still be “you”. So a being (you) can exist without form, at least to a certain extent.

Just my :twocents:

It depends on which part of the brain you are removing. People with Alzheimer lose their identity in initial state of disease.

 

[STT]

Well, then you should be able to answer my question, which is very specific. Please, do it, and be specific as well.

I don’t know how that it is related to an answer to my question. It seems to me that every beings and things have forms so I don’t understand. Could you please elaborate?

And I have another couple of questions for you now: How do you define a “state” in general?

A particular condition in which a being or thing is subjected to. You can think of liquid state, solid state, etc.

And, how do you define a mental state?

Mental state is the state which arises from brain activity.

 

[STT]

JuanFlorencio, Lucretius, Richca, seagal, et al., but if one allows that the soul/consciousness can exist without physical form, mustn’t one accept that solipsism may actually be true?

I don’t understand how. To me hard solipsism claims that neither soul nor physical exists. The only thing which exist is mere experience.

 

[catholic1seeks]

STT,

Others are making good points especially in regards to philosophy. I am an amateur in philosophy and only know some basics here and there. But here are some of my thoughts relating to your question that may help:

(1) It is hard to imagine realities such as God or spirit or angels, or “being without extension and form,” as you say. But that does not mean they are unreasonble. In fact, it would seem at least one reality – the supreme reality – would have to be without *material *form (your definition), or else it could not be the ultimate reality. If this being indeed had form, then it would require explanation as to why it has this form and not that form, for example.

(2) We imagine using our experiences and senses, which inform our understanding of the world around us. This makes it hard to “understand” in the sense of visualizing those realities that exist beyond everyday experience. One idea I am sure you would agree with is the idea that some reality (even if you say the Universe) must have never failed to exist – whether you say this means infinite time, or eternity without time. Either way, this is VERY hard for humans to imagine and understand. How could something have “always” existed? Nevertheless, we know this has to be. For, after all, nothing at the moment would or could exist if at one point there was, in fact, nothing.

(3) Another point: Don’t forget the materialistic bias. The complication you bring up revolves around the idea that intellectual processes are ultimately physical or biological. I will not be able to argue for the spirituality of the soul or mind at length here. But I recommend Robert Spitzer, S.J., books. They are easy to read and understand. One point, which may not be extremely helpful for you but was nevertheless interesting to, was his summary of research studies on near death experiences whereby persons who are clinically dead (brain dead, etc.) later are revived and report things such as heavenly visitations, consciousness survival. Even blind people report SEEING for the first time during this brief state of clinical death.