Could energy have always existed under the laws of thermodynamics?

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I am starting a new thread here because this discussion was off topic for the thread “What is your favorite proof for God?”. Below is a link to the original thread, and a summary of the discussion. See the original posts on that thread for additional details.

Greylorn proposes that energy has always existed, and has and will always follow the laws of thermodynamics. I am trying to understand this, since it is the basis for some other work Greylorn has done. My initial thinking on this premise ran into a contradiction with the fact that we exist and can observe that the universe is not at equilibrium (i.e., uniformly all one temperature).

forums.catholic-questions.org/showthread.php?p=7134278#post7134278
Premise: Energy has always existed and obeys the laws of thermodynamics (0-3).

  1. *]The total energy that makes up the universe is constant. (from 1st law)
    *]The entire universe represents a closed system. (2nd law does not apply otherwise)
    *]Energy must move from a higher ordered state to an equal or less ordered state (like heat). (from 2nd law)
    *]It is impossible to convert heat completely into work in a cyclic process. (Also from 2nd law)
    *]At any time not a finite length of time from the universe having some energy of higher order, the entire universe must be in the least ordered state (also called the heat death of the universe).
    *]Since energy has always existed, the universe must be a single uniform temperature that is derived by converting the total energy of the universe into heat.

    This is the problem I run into. I can only see one way around that problem, and that is to say that no processes (as defined by 2nd law) occurred until time X. But I can think of no reason for this to be true. Have you considered this line of reasoning? Could you help me out here? Perhaps I made an error in my (admittedly informal) steps.
  1. I’ve implicitly regarded energy as infinite in quantity and
    possibly extent, but contained within another space which I have no clue as to how to
    define. So, naturally, I argued with your statements. Do my ideas work if the amount
    and/or space of energy is finite? I honestly do not know.
    Your time X is what I’ve always thought of as T0. I assume no processes before T0. Also, I assume the existence of two independent closed systems prior to T0, (Yes, “prior to” makes no sense in that context.)

    I think that if the energy-quantity and extent of the universe were both infinite,
    thermodynamic death could occur. I’m keeping an open mind on that, and the rest of these issues until the time comes to delve more deeply, perchance with your guidance.
    Two systems? Hmm, that does help with how no processes could occur before T0. So we have two closed systems, separated by a perfect thermodynamic barrier, each system being at equilibrium (so there are no processes), but at different levels (of what? temperature? energy? is there a difference?).

    Then at T0, the barrier must be partially or completely compromised, allowing flow between the systems causing processes to happen, which could result in the (local to one system) increase in entropy.

    This begs the question, what affected the barrier?
 
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Andy_III:
Nice job of transferring content to the new thread. I’ve copied the following reply to your last question from “Favorite Proof…”.

Andy,
You would be absolutely devastating at “20 Questions.”

I don’t want to try to explain the nature of the two systems until my book is out. One of the systems needs a bit of leading-up-to. I’ve already tried that here on CAF with no success. I still hope to retain your interest until then, or near then, because I keep getting the feeling that you will have a definite contribution to offer. Whatever that may be, you’ll be certain to get points for it if you do your work after I’ve published. But if I include your contributions in my first book, people will consider them part of my idea package, despite crediting you.

The problems awaiting your solution are either too big for me, or, I’m burned out. Perhaps we can solve them together. Be patient. I believe that you will find it worth the wait.

Your analysis, incidentally, is right on. The problems awaiting your solution do not include the answer to your last question, “What affected the barrier?” It would be a nice bonus if they did.

My work does not eliminate the idea that the universe and our own existence began with a Miracle. We are already constrained to believe in either the Big Bang and random mutations (all miracles) or God (the ultimate Miracle). However, all of these are complex,j low-entropy miracles. All I’ve done differently is to hypothesize a creation process with high-entropy miracles.

Here’s an arcane and obscure clue to your next question. How did a quiz show contestant get the duck to come down?
 
Regarding Item #6 in your OP, the claim that the universe should be at the same temperature (which it obviously is not), consider this gedunken experiment:

Suppose that we construct a closed system which is very large, let’s say, a sturdy sphere the size of a small moon, perfectly insulated. Before sealing this sphere, which contains air at whatever temperature it happens to be, we place one relatively small object inside it at the same temperature.

At this point we cannot tell for certain what will happen because we cannot see inside the sphere, but we can predict events just fine. We know that the contents of the sphere are at room temperature, or approximately so, and will remain at that temperature forever unless an event or events within the sphere change it.

The object we cleverly left inside is an ordinary thermonuclear warhead, with its triggering mechanisms (including, of course, a small fission bomb to set it off) are attached to a very high quality German-made 24-hour timer, which we set just before sealing the sphere.

The sphere is not moving at a velocity near light-speed, so the timer will cycle in 24 hours, triggering the thermonuclear explosion. We will not see this event, of course, but can be certain that it will disperse warmish bomb fragments throughout the sphere and raise the temperature of the air within the sphere. This elevated temperature, which may be only a fraction of a degree due to the large size of the container, will remain elevated forever. After all, the radiation within cannot escape and any mechanisms within the sphere which might absorb radiation or cause molecules to slow down (thus reducing temperature) have been vaporized.

All we’ve done is exchange a little bit of mass (or nuclear binding energy) for an increase in temperature.

Clearly, there is no relationship between the amount of energy in a system and the temperature of the system.

(Yes, we could have performed the same experiment with a firecracker inside a well insulated garbage can, but that would have been less rigorous, and not nearly as dramatic.)
 
To posit the eternal existence of energy does not negate the existence of God or make Him unnecessary. The proofs offered by Thomas Aquinas ( five ) apply even for the eternal existence of the universe. For example. Energy is something, it is a material part of a material universe, therefore its movement, existence, etc can only be accounted for if there is a cause for its movement, existence, etc. And this cause ultimately depends upon a cause which accounts for its own movement, existence, etc and does not get it from another and this cause we know as God. Hawking and others have tried to suggest that this is due to the laws of thermodynamics. But laws themselves suggest an intelligent cause that can only be God. You cannot have energy without laws, it is the nature of energy that it functions according to laws.

There is an excellent critique of Hawking’s Grand Design. Just Google " critique of Grand Design " and you will find it. There are several, the one I’m thinking of is by William Lane Craig being interviewd by Greg Koukl.
 
To posit the eternal existence of energy does not negate the existence of God or make Him unnecessary. The proofs offered by Thomas Aquinas ( five ) apply even for the eternal existence of the universe. For example. Energy is something, it is a material part of a material universe, therefore its movement, existence, etc can only be accounted for if there is a cause for its movement, existence, etc. And this cause ultimately depends upon a cause which accounts for its own movement, existence, etc and does not get it from another and this cause we know as God. Hawking and others have tried to suggest that this is due to the laws of thermodynamics. But laws themselves suggest an intelligent cause that can only be God. You cannot have energy without laws, it is the nature of energy that it functions according to laws.

There is an excellent critique of Hawking’s Grand Design. Just Google " critique of Grand Design " and you will find it. There are several, the one I’m thinking of is by William Lane Craig being interviewd by Greg Koukl.
You’ve gotten a lot wrong here. With the hope that careful attention to fact instead of tossing out non-informed opinions will help this to become an interesting thread—

Your first sentence is correct. I hope you never assumed that because I don’t attribute the creation of energy to God that I disbelieve in creation.

Energy is not generally found in a material form. Only in its incarnation as matter is it regarded as material. The proper term in sentence four is physical.

The existence of the laws of thermodynamics do not imply a creator. They are part of the package that we call energy. One might even define energy as, “That stuff which behaves according to the laws of thermodynamics.” It would be absurd to declare that energy always existed but that God created the laws by which it operates.

The term “Law of Physics,” confuses many others besides you. “Law” was a poorly chosen term, but I was given no say in its choice. Human laws and God’s laws are arbitrary. The laws of physics are not. They are merely descriptions of consistently observed behavior. When tested, they always operate the same way. They cannot be broken or violated (although there is one exception to this). They can be counted upon to work every time, unlike the arbitrary laws of God and man. There is no need for a judge or priest to declare whether or not a law of physics has been violated; most attempts to do so are obvious. Many appear on programs like, Engineering Disasters.

Incidentally, I suggest that in the interest of intellectual honesty, readers who Google critiques of Hawking’s material first actually read what Hawking wrote.
 
You’ve gotten a lot wrong here. With the hope that careful attention to fact instead of tossing out non-informed opinions will help this to become an interesting thread—

Your first sentence is correct. I hope you never assumed that because I don’t attribute the creation of energy to God that I disbelieve in creation.

Energy is not generally found in a material form. Only in its incarnation as matter is it regarded as material. The proper term in sentence four is physical.

The existence of the laws of thermodynamics do not imply a creator. They are part of the package that we call energy. One might even define energy as, “That stuff which behaves according to the laws of thermodynamics.” It would be absurd to declare that energy always existed but that God created the laws by which it operates.

The term “Law of Physics,” confuses many others besides you. “Law” was a poorly chosen term, but I was given no say in its choice. Human laws and God’s laws are arbitrary. The laws of physics are not. They are merely descriptions of consistently observed behavior. When tested, they always operate the same way. They cannot be broken or violated (although there is one exception to this). They can be counted upon to work every time, unlike the arbitrary laws of God and man. There is no need for a judge or priest to declare whether or not a law of physics has been violated; most attempts to do so are obvious. Many appear on programs like, Engineering Disasters.

Incidentally, I suggest that in the interest of intellectual honesty, readers who Google critiques of Hawking’s material first actually read what Hawking wrote.
No, I am not a scientist, nor even a student of science. However whether we call energy material or physical seems to me to be a matter of symnantics, it is still a part - a measurable part - of the universe.

I don’t believe I said that energy existed apart from laws, the laws of thermodymamics if you will. Sorry you got that impression. The existence of God can be inferred from either or both the existence of energy, or the laws of thermodynamics which govern the activity of energy. Physical laws such as the laws of thermodynamics presuppose a law giver and this we call God. It is because of God that there is energy, it is because of God that the laws of thermodynamics exist. And this is what you and Hawkins won’t or can’t accept. The fact that you and Hawkins won’t accept it does not negate its truth.

No I am not going to read the Grand Design, I have read other works very similar so there is no point. But since you have read the Grand Design, why don’t you take a look at the critique I mentioned, it really is quite good.

Hawkins, Hitchens, Davies and others just seem like cranks to me. Essentially they refuse to give credit to the testimony of common sence. God intended to make His existence obvious to common sence and therefore to the average man and woman of any age. He wanted to reveal Himself to all, to even the most simple - if they would just open their eyes and take look at the wonders He created for them. Isn’t it wonderful that we aren’t slaves to an elitest intellectual class!!! That we aren’t dependent on them for appreciating the truth of the wonders in the universe. We don’t have to be a scientist to see Him who made us, Who made the universe.

The Book of Psalms said it all. " The fool says in his heart there is no God…" Here God was talking to both the simple and the learned. He is open to them all.

Good luck to you.
 
Hi Andy. You should check out William Lane Craig. While I don’t agree with much of what he says, he seems to know quite a bit about both philosophy of religion and contemporary physics.
 
No, I am not a scientist, nor even a student of science. However whether we call energy material or physical seems to me to be a matter of symnantics, it is still a part - a measurable part - of the universe.

I don’t believe I said that energy existed apart from laws, the laws of thermodymamics if you will. Sorry you got that impression. The existence of God can be inferred from either or both the existence of energy, or the laws of thermodynamics which govern the activity of energy. Physical laws such as the laws of thermodynamics presuppose a law giver and this we call God. It is because of God that there is energy, it is because of God that the laws of thermodynamics exist. And this is what you and Hawkins won’t or can’t accept. The fact that you and Hawkins won’t accept it does not negate its truth.

No I am not going to read the Grand Design, I have read other works very similar so there is no point. But since you have read the Grand Design, why don’t you take a look at the critique I mentioned, it really is quite good.

Hawkins, Hitchens, Davies and others just seem like cranks to me. Essentially they refuse to give credit to the testimony of common sence. God intended to make His existence obvious to common sence and therefore to the average man and woman of any age. He wanted to reveal Himself to all, to even the most simple - if they would just open their eyes and take look at the wonders He created for them. Isn’t it wonderful that we aren’t slaves to an elitest intellectual class!!! That we aren’t dependent on them for appreciating the truth of the wonders in the universe. We don’t have to be a scientist to see Him who made us, Who made the universe.

The Book of Psalms said it all. " The fool says in his heart there is no God…" Here God was talking to both the simple and the learned. He is open to them all.

Good luck to you.
Consider the possibility that since God had no luck transferring useful concepts into whatever passes for mind in simple, brain-driven men, He is trying to interest Hawking, Hitchens, et.al. instead.

Everything I wrote seems to have passed into your brain without striking a single neuron, passing into WOM (Write-Only Memory). Alas. I’ll not try again.
 
There’s another thread talking about something similar to this:

forums.catholic-questions.org/showthread.php?t=500929
Thanks. I gave it a quick study. Your OP is a bit off-mark. AntiTheist offered a competent post, but thereafter the dogmatists took over. They have a way of burying potentially interesting threads under mounds of brown stuff.

They seem to be attracted to anything involving physics, despite (or perhaps because of) their complete ignorance of the subject. Discussing anything with them is a complete waste of my time. Liinus will like the thread.
 
I am starting a new thread here because this discussion was off topic for the thread “What is your favorite proof for God?”. Below is a link to the original thread, and a summary of the discussion. See the original posts on that thread for additional details.

Greylorn proposes that energy has always existed, and has and will always follow the laws of thermodynamics. I am trying to understand this, since it is the basis for some other work Greylorn has done. My initial thinking on this premise ran into a contradiction with the fact that we exist and can observe that the universe is not at equilibrium (i.e., uniformly all one temperature).

forums.catholic-questions.org/showthread.php?p=7134278#post7134278
Energy must move from a higher ordered state to an equal or less ordered state (like heat). (from 2nd law)
It is impossible to convert heat completely into work in a cyclic process. (Also from 2nd law)
At any time not a finite length of time from the universe having some energy of higher order, the entire universe must be in the least ordered state
I’ll focus on your statements about the 2nd Law. Roger Penrose has some interesting thoughts on the 2nd Law, and why it operates (in contradiction to the fact that all the equations of physics are time-reversible) (See his book, “The Road to Reality”). He says the initial, big bang state must have been very uniform, so that if you calculate its relative volume in phase space, it’s an incredibly small number, something like W = 1/[10 ^(10^123)] and from S= k ln W, the entropy of the Big Bang state was extremely low (very negative).
Gravitational attraction (e.g. black holes) gives very high entropy. If the universe ends up in a state of many black holes it will have gone from low to high entropy, satisfying the Second Law.
As you point out, we’re using up the low entropy of the initial, Big Bang, state to sustain life…this is the source of the temperature difference that enables energy transfer from the sun to the earth.
 
I’ll focus on your statements about the 2nd Law. Roger Penrose has some interesting thoughts on the 2nd Law, and why it operates (in contradiction to the fact that all the equations of physics are time-reversible) (See his book, “The Road to Reality”). He says the initial, big bang state must have been very uniform, so that if you calculate its relative volume in phase space, it’s an incredibly small number, something like W = 1/[10 ^(10^123)] and from S= k ln W, the entropy of the Big Bang state was extremely low (very negative).
Gravitational attraction (e.g. black holes) gives very high entropy. If the universe ends up in a state of many black holes it will have gone from low to high entropy, satisfying the Second Law.
As you point out, we’re using up the low entropy of the initial, Big Bang, state to sustain life…this is the source of the temperature difference that enables energy transfer from the sun to the earth.
And what would that look like after an unbounded length of time? Say much, much longer than it takes for every star to run out. The idea is that entropy wins. There is nothing left but maximal entropy energy.
 
Regarding Item #6 in your OP, the claim that the universe should be at the same temperature (which it obviously is not), consider this gedunken experiment:

Suppose that we construct a closed system which is very large, let’s say, a sturdy sphere the size of a small moon, perfectly insulated. Before sealing this sphere, which contains air at whatever temperature it happens to be, we place one relatively small object inside it at the same temperature.

At this point we cannot tell for certain what will happen because we cannot see inside the sphere, but we can predict events just fine. We know that the contents of the sphere are at room temperature, or approximately so, and will remain at that temperature forever unless an event or events within the sphere change it.

The object we cleverly left inside is an ordinary thermonuclear warhead, with its triggering mechanisms (including, of course, a small fission bomb to set it off) are attached to a very high quality German-made 24-hour timer, which we set just before sealing the sphere.

The sphere is not moving at a velocity near light-speed, so the timer will cycle in 24 hours, triggering the thermonuclear explosion. We will not see this event, of course, but can be certain that it will disperse warmish bomb fragments throughout the sphere and raise the temperature of the air within the sphere. This elevated temperature, which may be only a fraction of a degree due to the large size of the container, will remain elevated forever. After all, the radiation within cannot escape and any mechanisms within the sphere which might absorb radiation or cause molecules to slow down (thus reducing temperature) have been vaporized.

All we’ve done is exchange a little bit of mass (or nuclear binding energy) for an increase in temperature.

Clearly, there is no relationship between the amount of energy in a system and the temperature of the system.

(Yes, we could have performed the same experiment with a firecracker inside a well insulated garbage can, but that would have been less rigorous, and not nearly as dramatic.)
I appreciate your flair for the dramatic, as I like to make dramatic examples as well. My wife does not always appreciate that. 😉

Since were talking mainly about infinite lengths of time here (unbounded to be more rigorous - nobody’s ruler has inifinity on it!), your example stopped quite a bit too soon. In the short term, the energy increases by a bit, but as the pieces are broken down and every nuclear bond is broken, there is one uniform equilibrium based on the amount of energy. Maybe my use of the word temperature is confusing, it is stuck in my head because of the term “heat death of the universe”, but can you really measure temperature if there are no electrons, neutrons, or protons? I’m afraid this is mainly a thought experiment anyway, because we don’t have an infinite length of time to test this out, even on a very small closed system.

I stopped at #6 because it is in contradiction to our existence (as you pointed out). If we are here, entropy can’t be at its maximum yet. From that, we know that there is something wrong with either the premise or my assumptions. As stated earlier, I assumed the universe has finite energy, and surmised that it is a closed system (because we weren’t interested in open systems).
 
And what would that look like after an unbounded length of time? Say much, much longer than it takes for every star to run out. The idea is that entropy wins. There is nothing left but maximal entropy energy.
Andy, just to clear up one point of possible confusion–entropy isn’t a form of energy. Entropy measures disorder. Energy will flow spontaneously from systems at a high temperature (greater disorder) to systems at lower temperature (lower disorder) with a corresponding increase in the total entropy of the combined systems. You can’t get energy to go spontaneously from a high temperature to a lower temperature (as in a refrigerator) without doing work on the two systems from the outside. If the universe is finite (which I believe) and doesn’t expand to infinity, then eventually temperatures will equalize, black holes will swallow up all matter and the total entropy will get to its maximum value.
 
Since were talking mainly about infinite lengths of time here (unbounded to be more rigorous - nobody’s ruler has inifinity on it!), your example stopped quite a bit too soon. In the short term, the energy increases by a bit, but as the pieces are broken down and every nuclear bond is broken, there is one uniform equilibrium based on the amount of energy. Maybe my use of the word temperature is confusing, it is stuck in my head because of the term “heat death of the universe”, but can you really measure temperature if there are no electrons, neutrons, or protons? I’m afraid this is mainly a thought experiment anyway, because we don’t have an infinite length of time to test this out, even on a very small closed system.
The nice thing about a Gedunken experiment is that it is only, not mainly, a thought experiment. The ability to measure the exact or even approximate temperature is irrelevant to the point of this one.

If the hadrons and leptons within the closed system disappear, they will necessarily release more energy in the process, as high energy electromagnetic radiation and possibly neutrinos, at temperatures which are a function of the energy released.

Incidentally, I do not know of processes which cause subatomic particles to spontaneously disintegrate. Although aware of the claim from speculative physicists on TV that everything will come apart as dark energy expands the universe, I’m not aware of the mechanisms by which this will happen.

Anyone who cares to add more knowledge to this topic is especially welcome!
I stopped at #6 because it is in contradiction to our existence (as you pointed out). If we are here, entropy can’t be at its maximum yet. From that, we know that there is something wrong with either the premise or my assumptions. As stated earlier, I assumed the universe has finite energy, and surmised that it is a closed system (because we weren’t interested in open systems).
If the “finite energy” hypothesis is correct, we should be trying to figure out a way to measure it. I’ve not read about such experiments.

But you’ve gotten me thinking, and I’ve found a way to deal with the concept of a finite universe but an infinite amount of energy. I’m going to write that notion down before it disappears. Thanks!

By the way, is Anselm’s excellent clarification pertinent? Were you really confusing energy and entropy? If so, I’m embarrassed at missing that.

Re: your wife’s lack of appreciation for your personal dramatic flair. Sometimes it’s just a matter of style. For example, should you try the cherry-bomb in a garbage can experiment, remove the garbage from the can aforehand, and don’t borrow her body-temperature thermometer to measure thermal changes. If it’s too late, taking her out to dinner is always good.
 
Andy, just to clear up one point of possible confusion–entropy isn’t a form of energy. Entropy measures disorder. Energy will flow spontaneously from systems at a high temperature (greater disorder) to systems at lower temperature (lower disorder) with a corresponding increase in the total entropy of the combined systems. You can’t get energy to go spontaneously from a high temperature to a lower temperature (as in a refrigerator) without doing work on the two systems from the outside. If the universe is finite (which I believe) and doesn’t expand to infinity, then eventually temperatures will equalize, black holes will swallow up all matter and the total entropy will get to its maximum value.
Yep. If I can pick a nit, which I think is really a profound point, on this:

I take it for granted given your background that when you say “Entropy measures disorder”, you mean, implicitly “Entropy measures thermodynamic disorder”, and you assume your readers are making that connection. In practice, though, these kinds of explanations create all sorts of problems for readers who don’t make that connection.

It’s important to point this out because it steers complaints about entropy being at odds with biological development because they see biological structures as “ordered” in an complexity-sense, not a thermodynamic (energy available for work) sense.

You have likely heard the pedagogy of the “messy room”. A neat bedroom, with all the shirts folded, and hung on hangars, and all the socks matched and put neatly in drawers, and all the toys cleaned up and put in their bins, is “ordered”. But if we just let “life happen”, that room tends to become “disordered”, a mess, with toys on the floor, socks strewn about and the bed unmade. And this, it is offered, is an example of understanding entropy.

That’s actually a counterproductive example, as people then think (reasonably) that the bedroom going from neat to messy is an example of disorder and a change in entropy in the technical sense. It is not, and the messy room with toys and clothes strewn about and a messy bed has no significantly different entropy than that same room in “perfectly neat” arrangement. If we burned both rooms completely and measured the heat we could generate from the incineration of both, we’d likely find nearly the same amount of extractable energy. That’s not a perfect test, but a valid one.

All of which to say, “disorder” is a VERY tricky word to understand. Scientists and researchers get it, because it’s a term of art they must use in technical applications. But for many of us non-scientists, we seize on the errant idea that disorder is something like going from a clean room to a messy one. Thermodynamic entropy is a tendency that goes one way in the aggregate, and in that narrow sense,we can say that a young boy’s room has a natural tendency towards messier (for most boys, anyway), but over and over again I find this becoming a problem for creationist thinking, the idea that “disorder” and “order” in the “macro arrangement” and non-thermodynamic sense has some attachment to the Second Law of Thermodynamics.

It doesn’t.

So I don’t disagree with anything you said (and it was well said) but wanted to add the stipulation that this is strictly applied to thermodynamics, not to the “order” of biological structures. I can feel the “a messy room is a rise in entropy” thing coming on, here – not from you, though.

-TS
 
Yep. If I can pick a nit, which I think is really a profound point, on this:

I take it for granted given your background that when you say “Entropy measures disorder”, you mean, implicitly “Entropy measures thermodynamic disorder”, and you assume your readers are making that connection. In practice, though, these kinds of explanations create all sorts of problems for readers who don’t make that connection.

It’s important to point this out because it steers complaints about entropy being at odds with biological development because they see biological structures as “ordered” in an complexity-sense, not a thermodynamic (energy available for work) sense.

You have likely heard the pedagogy of the “messy room”. A neat bedroom, with all the shirts folded, and hung on hangars, and all the socks matched and put neatly in drawers, and all the toys cleaned up and put in their bins, is “ordered”. But if we just let “life happen”, that room tends to become “disordered”, a mess, with toys on the floor, socks strewn about and the bed unmade. And this, it is offered, is an example of understanding entropy.

That’s actually a counterproductive example, as people then think (reasonably) that the bedroom going from neat to messy is an example of disorder and a change in entropy in the technical sense. It is not, and the messy room with toys and clothes strewn about and a messy bed has no significantly different entropy than that same room in “perfectly neat” arrangement. If we burned both rooms completely and measured the heat we could generate from the incineration of both, we’d likely find nearly the same amount of extractable energy. That’s not a perfect test, but a valid one.

All of which to say, “disorder” is a VERY tricky word to understand. Scientists and researchers get it, because it’s a term of art they must use in technical applications. But for many of us non-scientists, we seize on the errant idea that disorder is something like going from a clean room to a messy one. Thermodynamic entropy is a tendency that goes one way in the aggregate, and in that narrow sense,we can say that a young boy’s room has a natural tendency towards messier (for most boys, anyway), but over and over again I find this becoming a problem for creationist thinking, the idea that “disorder” and “order” in the “macro arrangement” and non-thermodynamic sense has some attachment to the Second Law of Thermodynamics.

It doesn’t.

So I don’t disagree with anything you said (and it was well said) but wanted to add the stipulation that this is strictly applied to thermodynamics, not to the “order” of biological structures. I can feel the “a messy room is a rise in entropy” thing coming on, here – not from you, though.

-TS
Thanks for faint damns and other praise ;). Without trying to do a thermo text, I was thinking of entropy in the sense as S=k (natural logarithm) (W) , where W is the thermodynamic probability. This W is the number of ways you can rearrange the atomic/molecular constituents of the systems and still have it with the same macroscopic state–same value for volume, pressure, temperature, energy, etc. This brings me to an error I made in a previous post (which no one caught, by the way–in the country of the blind the one-eyed man is king?) Referring to the very small volume in phase space of the initial universe, Roger Penrose, calculates P = 1/ 10^(10^123)] which I identified as W and which I said (incorrectly) gave a negative entropy… W is > or = to 1 so S > = 0
can’t be negative. What I should have used was S=- sum( p sub i ln (p sub i) ) which gives the inital entropy as very close to 0, whence the 2nd Law. :o
As far as the entropy of living systems go, they are 1) not closed systems and 2) not in thermal equilibrium, so the 2nd Law doesn’t apply in the sense that change of entropy has to be > 0. This is the same criticism that can be applied to Dembski’s state about more information in DNA than there was to start. Information is related to entropy (see Shannon’s formula —which I forget the exact form of, but which is analogous to the sum
p sub i ln (p sub i) expression) so if entropies of living systems can decrease (while having total entropy of living system + environment increase) then information in living systems can increase by interaction with the environment.

Now again to look at entropy as a measure of order. If you use the second law in the form
delta S = Q/T then for any reversible change of state which has an increase of entropy,
there has to be heat (energy) transfer into the system. If you have an isothermal change of state in which entropy increases, e.g. melting of ice at 0 C, then heat has to be supplied, but there is also an increase of disorder. If you heat an object and raise its temperature its entropy will increase, and the random thermal motion of the atoms/molecules will increase (even if a solid) so the disorder will increase. I can’t think of any natural process in which entropy increase and order remains the same, which is consistent with the S= k ln (W) definition of Boltzmann (engraved on his tombstone and tattooed on my younger son’s arm, by the way). So as far as conventional thermo goes, entropy change is related to heat/energy transfer but it is also related to increase in disorder…
 
Yep. If I can pick a nit, which I think is really a profound point, on this:

I take it for granted given your background that when you say “Entropy measures disorder”, you mean, implicitly “Entropy measures thermodynamic disorder”, and you assume your readers are making that connection. In practice, though, these kinds of explanations create all sorts of problems for readers who don’t make that connection.

It’s important to point this out because it steers complaints about entropy being at odds with biological development because they see biological structures as “ordered” in an complexity-sense, not a thermodynamic (energy available for work) sense.

You have likely heard the pedagogy of the “messy room”. A neat bedroom, with all the shirts folded, and hung on hangars, and all the socks matched and put neatly in drawers, and all the toys cleaned up and put in their bins, is “ordered”. But if we just let “life happen”, that room tends to become “disordered”, a mess, with toys on the floor, socks strewn about and the bed unmade. And this, it is offered, is an example of understanding entropy.

That’s actually a counterproductive example, as people then think (reasonably) that the bedroom going from neat to messy is an example of disorder and a change in entropy in the technical sense. It is not, and the messy room with toys and clothes strewn about and a messy bed has no significantly different entropy than that same room in “perfectly neat” arrangement. If we burned both rooms completely and measured the heat we could generate from the incineration of both, we’d likely find nearly the same amount of extractable energy. That’s not a perfect test, but a valid one.

All of which to say, “disorder” is a VERY tricky word to understand. Scientists and researchers get it, because it’s a term of art they must use in technical applications. But for many of us non-scientists, we seize on the errant idea that disorder is something like going from a clean room to a messy one. Thermodynamic entropy is a tendency that goes one way in the aggregate, and in that narrow sense,we can say that a young boy’s room has a natural tendency towards messier (for most boys, anyway), but over and over again I find this becoming a problem for creationist thinking, the idea that “disorder” and “order” in the “macro arrangement” and non-thermodynamic sense has some attachment to the Second Law of Thermodynamics.

It doesn’t.

So I don’t disagree with anything you said (and it was well said) but wanted to add the stipulation that this is strictly applied to thermodynamics, not to the “order” of biological structures. I can feel the “a messy room is a rise in entropy” thing coming on, here – not from you, though.

-TS
I’ve just thought of an example in which entropy change is purely a change in order–no heat or energy transfer. Consider an ideal gas (like Helium)…if it expands reversibly at constant temperature there’s no change in the internal energy of the gas. Now connect a very strong balloon through a valve to a tank of helium a fairly low pressure (2 atm gauge say) and open up the valve a little and let the helium expand the balloon until pressure (which will be less than the original 2 atm) stabilizes. The entropy of the helium will have increase (its disorder increases because of the larger volume available to the helium atoms) and no energy will have been transferred to the helium (ideally).

Oh, and I’m not sure your example of the messy room hits the mark. The messy room is a macroscopically different state than the orderly one, but the heat you get is the heat from burning individual items of clothing. If you counted the work required to put the room back into order (a mother’s sweat), then entropy changes probably would balance out with a greater entropy change (total) for burning the messy room items,. And I can think of thermodynamic systems at different entropies which will give the same amount of heat when reaction occurs:1) 2n moles of H2 and n moles of O2, H2 at 2/3 atm partial pressure and the O2 at 1/3 atm partial pressure and temperature at 0 C; 2) 2n moles of H2 and n moles of O2H2 at 1/3 atm partial pressure and O2 at 1/6 atm, temp at 0 C. Systems 1 and 2 will both give off the same amount of heat when reacted to form liquid water even though the entropy of system 2 is greater than that of system 1. The reason: if you think of H2 and O2 as ideal gases no work/energy was required to expand them from 1) to 2)… I hope this hasn’t totally confused the point you were talking about, with which I agree. 2nd law arguments about evolution brought forth by Young Earth Creationists are fallacious.
 
Yep. If I can pick a nit, which I think is really a profound point, on this:

You have likely heard the pedagogy of the “messy room”. A neat bedroom, with all the shirts folded, and hung on hangars, and all the socks matched and put neatly in drawers, and all the toys cleaned up and put in their bins, is “ordered”. But if we just let “life happen”, that room tends to become “disordered”, a mess, with toys on the floor, socks strewn about and the bed unmade. And this, it is offered, is an example of understanding entropy.

That’s actually a counterproductive example, as people then think (reasonably) that the bedroom going from neat to messy is an example of disorder and a change in entropy in the technical sense. It is not, and the messy room with toys and clothes strewn about and a messy bed has no significantly different entropy than that same room in “perfectly neat” arrangement. If we burned both rooms completely and measured the heat we could generate from the incineration of both, we’d likely find nearly the same amount of extractable energy. That’s not a perfect test, but a valid one.

-TS
just thought of something why this example may not be appropriate (should have got it sooner, but at 80, the brain cells work more slowly). delta S = Q/T is the second law for REVERSIBLE changes…which combustion isn’t. The other part of the second law is
delta S > Q/T for irreversible changes which combustion is. For example if you drop hot water onto ice in a thermos (thermally insulate) the entropy change for the combined system, ice+water, will be greater than 0, even if no heat gets into the thermos. And you’re correct in saying thermodynamic disorder may not be the same as what the hoi polloi think of as disorder and order.
So somewhere in the “>” sign is the increase in entropy in going from neat to messy,
that is to say: delta S for neat to burnt = delta S for neat to messy + delta S for messy to burnt, even though Q neat to burnt = Q messy to burnt.
 
Yep. If I can pick a nit, which I think is really a profound point, on this:

I take it for granted given your background that when you say “Entropy measures disorder”, you mean, implicitly “Entropy measures thermodynamic disorder”, and you assume your readers are making that connection. In practice, though, these kinds of explanations create all sorts of problems for readers who don’t make that connection.

It’s important to point this out because it steers complaints about entropy being at odds with biological development because they see biological structures as “ordered” in an complexity-sense, not a thermodynamic (energy available for work) sense.

You have likely heard the pedagogy of the “messy room”. A neat bedroom, with all the shirts folded, and hung on hangars, and all the socks matched and put neatly in drawers, and all the toys cleaned up and put in their bins, is “ordered”. But if we just let “life happen”, that room tends to become “disordered”, a mess, with toys on the floor, socks strewn about and the bed unmade. And this, it is offered, is an example of understanding entropy.

That’s actually a counterproductive example, as people then think (reasonably) that the bedroom going from neat to messy is an example of disorder and a change in entropy in the technical sense. It is not, and the messy room with toys and clothes strewn about and a messy bed has no significantly different entropy than that same room in “perfectly neat” arrangement. If we burned both rooms completely and measured the heat we could generate from the incineration of both, we’d likely find nearly the same amount of extractable energy. That’s not a perfect test, but a valid one.

All of which to say, “disorder” is a VERY tricky word to understand. Scientists and researchers get it, because it’s a term of art they must use in technical applications. But for many of us non-scientists, we seize on the errant idea that disorder is something like going from a clean room to a messy one. Thermodynamic entropy is a tendency that goes one way in the aggregate, and in that narrow sense,we can say that a young boy’s room has a natural tendency towards messier (for most boys, anyway), but over and over again I find this becoming a problem for creationist thinking, the idea that “disorder” and “order” in the “macro arrangement” and non-thermodynamic sense has some attachment to the Second Law of Thermodynamics.

It doesn’t.

So I don’t disagree with anything you said (and it was well said) but wanted to add the stipulation that this is strictly applied to thermodynamics, not to the “order” of biological structures. I can feel the “a messy room is a rise in entropy” thing coming on, here – not from you, though.

-TS
Who better for it to come from than me?

Everything you’ve written is correct, at least to the best of my knowledge.

My personal theories about the beginnings of things and their ongoing nature has extended a few physics notions into areas beyond their original intent. It will be a while before the returns are in on this approach, but in the meantime, consider this…

What if the concept of entropy can be legitimately generalized, so that it applies to information as well as to thermodynamics?

The messy room then becomes an example of high entropy, and the ordered room an example of low entropy.

There is also a thermodynamic relationship, as one who lives without a keeper knows. I only hang up laundered clothes or put them into drawers twice annually because extra energy is required to do so, and I have more important things to use my remaining ergs for, like cutting firewood. Reversing the normal flow of informational entropy also requires time (and therefore power) which I’d prefer to spend on CAF.

Back to your messy room— if the energy expended to sort the clothes is counted, and if compared to the lesser amount of energy needed to throw them on a handy pile, then added to the energy released by burning the rooms, it will be greater.
 
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