A
Andy_III
Guest
I am starting a new thread here because this discussion was off topic for the thread “What is your favorite proof for God?”. Below is a link to the original thread, and a summary of the discussion. See the original posts on that thread for additional details.
Greylorn proposes that energy has always existed, and has and will always follow the laws of thermodynamics. I am trying to understand this, since it is the basis for some other work Greylorn has done. My initial thinking on this premise ran into a contradiction with the fact that we exist and can observe that the universe is not at equilibrium (i.e., uniformly all one temperature).
forums.catholic-questions.org/showthread.php?p=7134278#post7134278
Greylorn proposes that energy has always existed, and has and will always follow the laws of thermodynamics. I am trying to understand this, since it is the basis for some other work Greylorn has done. My initial thinking on this premise ran into a contradiction with the fact that we exist and can observe that the universe is not at equilibrium (i.e., uniformly all one temperature).
forums.catholic-questions.org/showthread.php?p=7134278#post7134278
Premise: Energy has always existed and obeys the laws of thermodynamics (0-3).
*]The total energy that makes up the universe is constant. (from 1st law)
*]The entire universe represents a closed system. (2nd law does not apply otherwise)
*]Energy must move from a higher ordered state to an equal or less ordered state (like heat). (from 2nd law)
*]It is impossible to convert heat completely into work in a cyclic process. (Also from 2nd law)
*]At any time not a finite length of time from the universe having some energy of higher order, the entire universe must be in the least ordered state (also called the heat death of the universe).
*]Since energy has always existed, the universe must be a single uniform temperature that is derived by converting the total energy of the universe into heat.
This is the problem I run into. I can only see one way around that problem, and that is to say that no processes (as defined by 2nd law) occurred until time X. But I can think of no reason for this to be true. Have you considered this line of reasoning? Could you help me out here? Perhaps I made an error in my (admittedly informal) steps.
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I’ve implicitly regarded energy as infinite in quantity and
possibly extent, but contained within another space which I have no clue as to how to
define. So, naturally, I argued with your statements. Do my ideas work if the amount
and/or space of energy is finite? I honestly do not know.Your time X is what I’ve always thought of as T0. I assume no processes before T0. Also, I assume the existence of two independent closed systems prior to T0, (Yes, “prior to” makes no sense in that context.)
I think that if the energy-quantity and extent of the universe were both infinite,
thermodynamic death could occur. I’m keeping an open mind on that, and the rest of these issues until the time comes to delve more deeply, perchance with your guidance.Two systems? Hmm, that does help with how no processes could occur before T0. So we have two closed systems, separated by a perfect thermodynamic barrier, each system being at equilibrium (so there are no processes), but at different levels (of what? temperature? energy? is there a difference?).
Then at T0, the barrier must be partially or completely compromised, allowing flow between the systems causing processes to happen, which could result in the (local to one system) increase in entropy.
This begs the question, what affected the barrier?