Could England have remained Catholic?

[HabemusFrancis]

Hi all.

I just wonder sometimes, it seems England almost avoided the whole protestant reformation thing… I mean if Henry VIII decided to be faithful to his wife… he would never have founded his own “church.”

I wonder what the effects of a Catholic England would have been? Would American revolution have played out in the same way?

I think Ireland would probably have been treated better by its (Catholic) English occupiers.

I have heard it said though, that England’s break with the Church was only a matter of time… people have told me that Catholicism just wasn’t in the English “DNA” the way it was in Italians, Irish, Poles, etc…

So what do you think? Could Catholocism have lasted as establishment religion? What effects might it have had (if anything different at all?)

 

[Bob_Crowley]

There’s not much point worrying over spilt milk. We can hypothesise till the cows come home, and achieve very little.

I do think that Britain will again become formally Catholic. On the other hand, I suspect most of continental Europe will go half heartedly Moslem.

But that’s future conjecture, and almost as useless…

 

[HabemusFrancis]

Hmm… perhaps if Elizabeth converts to Catholocism before she dies… since she IS head of the Church of England… she could say “you are going to be Catholic now,like it or not!”

I mean this may sound harsh, but I can’t see how the Anglican church justifies itself… It doesn’t believe it is the ultimate truth… it just is rather watered down “que sera sera” Catholicism really…

Hopefully It will go back to Catholocism… as will Ireland… where the Church has probably taken its worst hit of any of the hits of the past 10 years ! I knew several Irish exchange students at my college… none wanted anything to do with the Catholic Church… or at best were “cafeteria Catholics” of the most finicky kind… ah well…

I don’t think “Eurabia” will happen… Too much has come out about Islam, that no one truly believes that it is a “religion of peace”

There is quite a bit of anti immigrant sentiment in Europe… many of it directed towards Muslim immigrants… not a good thing in and of itself… but hopefully it will lead to less tolerance for shariah law in European ghettoes…

 

[judynurse]

Yes, England could have remained Catholic. However, King Henry VIII wanted a son to sit after him as King, not a daughter, so he wanted a divorce from a valid, sacramental marriage, which the Pope would not grant. By the way, he had no illegitimate sons either!! And since sex of the child is determined by the man not the woman, the problem was not his wife! (Of course, they didn’t know that then). As it turned out both of his daughters ended up as Queens, one a Catholic and one as head of the Church of England, which their father started. Then both he and Elizabeth killed as many Catholics as they could catch! (His daughter Mary also killed a lot of English Protestants, too). There’s nothing bloodier than a religious war — of any kind!

Had he remained faithful to his wife, and not insisted he must have a son, after his wife was too old to have any more, England would have (probably) remained Catholic, and his first daughter, Mary, would have reigned as a Catholic Queen. Yes, he did have some sons, but they were all either stillborn, or died soon after birth. Since he couldn’t keep getting divorces, he charged his next wife with infidelity, which he considered equaled treason to the King, beheaded her, and married again. Then died with no further children. He was known to drink and party and be unfaithful A LOT, so I imagine his health wasn’t too good by then!! Too bad he started this whole Church of England since it tore apart both Scotland and especially Ireland. My own ancestors, the first to come to America, came during the reign of Elizabeth, the young man fleeing Ireland (he was Catholic and son of a rebel clan) and a young Scottish girl put on the ship by her family for the same reason!! Unfortunately, a few generations later, the family joined various Protestant groups. The only Catholic in my family was my Grandma’s sister, who converted at age 15 and married a Catholic. Thank God! Because my Grandma raised me, and her sister taught me to be Catholic! Religious conflicts are always bad, whether in a family or a nation. But in nations, they can be quite bloody, involving a lot of martyrs and sacrifices by families. Just my "two cents worth!

 

[mdgspencer]

To deal with one of the issues raised by the opening post, English Catholicism was healthy and full of vitality at the time when Henry VIII decided to establish his own subservient church. A scholar came out with a book that many readers have found a great revelation about this. The idea that England was in need of a reformation or of a national church are ideas, it would seem, that Protestants later developed. See the information on this book at amazon.com (including the customer’s comments) at www.amazon.com/The-stripping-altars-traditional-1400-1580/dp/0300108281

 

[runningdude]

Hi all.

I just wonder sometimes, it seems England almost avoided the whole protestant reformation thing… I mean if Henry VIII decided to be faithful to his wife… he would never have founded his own “church.”
…

So what do you think? Could Catholocism have lasted as establishment religion? What effects might it have had (if anything different at all?)

Henry VIII only severed the head of the church, but did not break apostolic succession. It was a long list of ministers and advisers in his administration and following generations that broke apostolic succession.

The protestant movement was much larger than just the king. Had he not broken away, England may have experienced religious wars similar to the Catholics and Huguenots in France and elsewhere. Even with the break away, there were still wars and oppression in Ireland over religion.

 

[Celtic_Maiden]

Plus Mohammed was not a prophet, but an ordinary man like Joseph Smyth who had illusions of grandeur. We all know they are a warrior race, a religion of peace,! blow up the twin towers, kill people, on a marathan, hijack airplanes, ships, no free expression, dont respect other religions, Thor is a god of war, mohammed is a prophet of war, Did No Miracles, flew on a donkey at night to Mecca and only the donkey saw him, Has appeared to NO ONE in a dream, mohammed reminds me of the grim reaper, where ever he goes death and destruction follow.

 

[the]

Plus Mohammed was not a prophet, but an ordinary man like Joseph Smyth who had illusions of grandeur. We all know they are a warrior race, a religion of peace,! blow up the twin towers, kill people, on a marathan, hijack airplanes, ships, no free expression, dont respect other religions, Thor is a god of war, mohammed is a prophet of war, Did No Miracles, flew on a donkey at night to Mecca and only the donkey saw him, Has appeared to NO ONE in a dream, mohammed reminds me of the grim reaper, where ever he goes death and destruction follow.

What?

 

[tonyrey]

Yes, England could have remained Catholic. However, King Henry VIII wanted a son to sit after him as King, not a daughter, so he wanted a divorce from a valid, sacramental marriage, which the Pope would not grant. By the way, he had no illegitimate sons either!! And since sex of the child is determined by the man not the woman, the problem was not his wife! (Of course, they didn’t know that then). As it turned out both of his daughters ended up as Queens, one a Catholic and one as head of the Church of England, which their father started. Then both he and Elizabeth killed as many Catholics as they could catch! (His daughter Mary also killed a lot of English Protestants, too). There’s nothing bloodier than a religious war — of any kind!

Had he remained faithful to his wife, and not insisted he must have a son, after his wife was too old to have any more, England would have (probably) remained Catholic, and his first daughter, Mary, would have reigned as a Catholic Queen. Yes, he did have some sons, but they were all either stillborn, or died soon after birth. Since he couldn’t keep getting divorces, he charged his next wife with infidelity, which he considered equaled treason to the King, beheaded her, and married again. Then died with no further children. He was known to drink and party and be unfaithful A LOT, so I imagine his health wasn’t too good by then!! Too bad he started this whole Church of England since it tore apart both Scotland and especially Ireland. My own ancestors, the first to come to America, came during the reign of Elizabeth, the young man fleeing Ireland (he was Catholic and son of a rebel clan) and a young Scottish girl put on the ship by her family for the same reason!! Unfortunately, a few generations later, the family joined various Protestant groups. The only Catholic in my family was my Grandma’s sister, who converted at age 15 and married a Catholic. Thank God! Because my Grandma raised me, and her sister taught me to be Catholic! Religious conflicts are always bad, whether in a family or a nation. But in nations, they can be quite bloody, involving a lot of martyrs and sacrifices by families. Just my "two cents worth!

You’re too modest! Personal experience is always precious…

 

[tonyrey]

Hi all.

I just wonder sometimes, it seems England almost avoided the whole protestant reformation thing… I mean if Henry VIII decided to be faithful to his wife… he would never have founded his own “church.”

I wonder what the effects of a Catholic England would have been? Would American revolution have played out in the same way?

I think Ireland would probably have been treated better by its (Catholic) English occupiers.

I have heard it said though, that England’s break with the Church was only a matter of time… people have told me that Catholicism just wasn’t in the English “DNA” the way it was in Italians, Irish, Poles, etc…

So what do you think? Could Catholicism have lasted as establishment religion? What effects might it have had (if anything different at all?)

Pascal’s remark about Cleopatra’s nose seems relevant here. The butterfly effect can lead to vast changes in society regardless of national and cultural characteristics. Yet there have been many English Catholic martyrs and saints who demonstrate that in the long run individual virtues count far more than political circumstances. We can only speculate about historical alternatives but we can be certain that the moral integrity of a man like St Thomas More will never be forgotten or cease to inspire people of every - or no - denomination. Sanctity is indestructible!

 

[tstrong728]

Hi all.

I just wonder sometimes, it seems England almost avoided the whole protestant reformation thing… I mean if Henry VIII decided to be faithful to his wife… he would never have founded his own “church.”

I wonder what the effects of a Catholic England would have been? Would American revolution have played out in the same way?

I think Ireland would probably have been treated better by its (Catholic) English occupiers.

I have heard it said though, that England’s break with the Church was only a matter of time… people have told me that Catholicism just wasn’t in the English “DNA” the way it was in Italians, Irish, Poles, etc…

So what do you think? Could Catholocism have lasted as establishment religion? What effects might it have had (if anything different at all?)

Your presupposition is flawed… England is Catholic, there are some/many who forget and/or deny it.

 

[Petaro]

If England is Catholic I missed the news flash. BBC2 now beams out the Muslim call to prayer at the required times each day. The Anglican archbishop previously stated that he thought sharia law should be introduced alongside the Common Law of England. The decay in the Catholic church in Great Britain is evidenced in the weekly Mass census and the lack of public voice.
The reformation in England was a top down affair and the weak catholic clergy along with the traitorous Worsley et al capitulated en masse. Only the great saints like Fisher and More stood fast.
But because the liturgy wasn’t changed the Church of England to many seems like a pale shadow of the Church wandering its now increasingly empty churches like Christmas past in Dickens. No you can’t look back. Christianity is in decline across the West and we can only blame ourselves. Now the pedophile scandal has crippled our Church for a generation. All we can do is to pray for a continuation of the great Popes we have been blessed with this century; and a strengthening of our Bishops in their exhortation of Christ’s message to the ages. AMDG

 

[liturgyluver]

If England is Catholic I missed the news flash. BBC2 now beams out the Muslim call to prayer at the required times each day. The Anglican archbishop previously stated that he thought sharia law should be introduced alongside the Common Law of England. The decay in the Catholic church in Great Britain is evidenced in the weekly Mass census and the lack of public voice.
The reformation in England was a top down affair and the weak catholic clergy along with the traitorous Worsley et al capitulated en masse. Only the great saints like Fisher and More stood fast.
But because the liturgy wasn’t changed the Church of England to many seems like a pale shadow of the Church wandering its now increasingly empty churches like Christmas past in Dickens. No you can’t look back. Christianity is in decline across the West and we can only blame ourselves. Now the pedophile scandal has crippled our Church for a generation. All we can do is to pray for a continuation of the great Popes we have been blessed with this century; and a strengthening of our Bishops in their exhortation of Christ’s message to the ages. AMDG

Whilst I agree that it is a bit of a stretch to call the UK a Catholic country (there are around 5 million Catholics which is one in 6 of the population) there are a few inaccuracies in your post. BBC2 does not beam out the Muslim call to prayer - it was actually Channel 4 who did this during Ramadan - and they were cristicised by muslims and non-muslims alike. The Archbishop of Canterbury did not say that Sharia law should be introduced - this is what he actually said:
rowanwilliams.archbishopofcanterbury.org/articles.php/1135/sharia-law-what-did-the-archbishop-actually-say.

Mass attendance has fallen - as indeed it has in almost all the western world - but Catholic mass attendance in the UK at 22% is higher than average in Europe and only slightly lower than the USA (23%), and higher than Australia at 12.2%. We just did our October mass count and the figures are the highest since 1976! As for your description of Anglican church attendance - it is growing in London. Our local churches of different traditions are packed out. It is a different picture though in the country where there is one church per village. For every one Catholic church there are 6 Anglican ones.

To go back to the opening question, I agree with those posters who say that you cannot turn the clock back - you have to live in the present reality and pray that the decline in Christianity across the west will subside.

 

[losh14]

That’s a really interesting question (the OP’s). I honestly don’t know - Great Britain was less a homogenous state but more a collection of warring kingdoms and chiefdoms under the thumb of a powerful military and considerable political weight. Great Britain still isn’t, when you consider that until the past 20 years, marches, shootings and bombings were fairly common as an act of political revolt.

I think the Anglican church was quite often used as a method of power projection. Certainly at first (think of St. Thomas Moore’s history) but also in later years, when civil wars were fought very strongly along religious lines. The Roundheads (Calvinist), Jacobites (Scottish Catholics), IRA (Irish Catholics), etc, all warred against the royal faction which held to and were reinforced by the Anglican church. I honestly wonder, had Henry VIII not instituted a national church, would Scotland have embraced the Reformation sooner than it did?

All of this political and religious turmoil, commingled, certainly had a large role in founding the US. The pilgrims sought religious freedom (for themselves, anyway), and the Thirteen Colonies often at one time exclusive to one faith or another (Georgia to the Catholics, New York to Dutch Reform). Perhaps it was the realization that a religion can be used for suppression and power promotion that led the Founding Fathers to insist upon true freedom of religion - which includes association, membership, and profession of faith, as well as form and function of worship. Could it be that they even recognized how a strong religious community to behave as a rallying point against abuses of political power? Or did they see religion as important for its own sake, that the fulfillment of the individual’s spiritual needs must be independent of the faith of the local magistrate or governor?

 

[Charlemagne_II]

England could have remained Catholic if Henry had been a true Defender of the Faith.
Unfortunately, that was all a sham pretense on his behalf.

England could be much more Catholic than Anglican today if the separation of Church and State became effective. I understand the Church of England is tax supported. Without the tax, it might completely collapse in a hurry.

Follow the money trail.

 

[liturgyluver]

. I understand the Church of England is tax supported. Without the tax, it might completely collapse in a hurry

Your understanding is incorrect. The Church of England doesn’t receive any financial support from central government or taxation. All churches - regardless of denomination - can claim charitable status through the Gift Aid scheme which adds 20% to the donation. streathamhillcatholic.co.uk/supportgiftaid.php

 

[HardRockGTR]

What I’m more concerned about is; what is it with the English and vehement hatred of religion?

I don’t get it. It seems that England is an extremely atheistic country, and most atheists from there seem to vehemently oppose religion on top of it (most atheists I know from other countries don’t actively oppose religion or theistic belief). Every time I hear about someone not just denying, but* condemning* religion or theism, it’s an English person. From Bertrand Russell, to Brian Eno, to Richard Dawkins.

Of course, this isn’t a criticism about the English community or England in itself, I just find it extremely suspicious.

 

[adawgj]

If Henry VIII didn’t ask for a divorce it could’ve been possible.

 

[runningdude]

What I’m more concerned about is; what is it with the English and vehement hatred of religion?

I don’t get it. It seems that England is an extremely atheistic country, …

Of course, this isn’t a criticism about the English community or England in itself, I just find it extremely suspicious.

It’s not that England has more Atheists than any other country, its just that England is more prominent than most countries (so we stuck hearing their Atheists).

The media wouldn’t bother broadcasting French atheists*, or Russian atheists, or Chinese atheists; we simply wouldn’t understand their message…

*Maybe up in Canada for you!

 

[Paddy_Walker]

From wiki;
“The Roman Catholic Relief Act 1829 passed by the Parliament in 1829, was the culmination of the process of Catholic Emancipation throughout Britain. In Ireland it repealed the Test Act 1673 and the remaining Penal Laws which had been in force since the passing of the Disenfranchising Act of the Irish Parliament of 1728. Its passage followed a vigorous campaign on the issue by Irish lawyer Daniel O’Connell. O’Connell had firm support from the Prime Minister, the Duke of Wellington, as well as from the Whigs and liberal Tories.
The Act permitted members of the Catholic Church to sit in the parliament at Westminster. O’Connell had won a seat in a by-election for Clare in 1828 against an Anglican. Under the then extant penal law, O’Connell as a Roman Catholic, was forbidden to take his seat in Westminster. Sir Robert Peel, the Home Secretary, who had until then always opposed emancipation (and had, in 1815, challenged O’Connell to a duel) concluded: “though emancipation was a great danger, civil strife was a greater danger.” Fearing a revolution in Ireland, Peel drew up the Catholic Relief Bill and guided it through the House of Commons. To overcome the vehement opposition of both the House of Lords and King George IV, the Duke of Wellington worked tirelessly to ensure passage in the House of Lords, and threatened to resign as Prime Minister if the King did not give Royal Assent. …”

Since 1829 and Catholic Emancipation Britain must have continued to move back to Catholicism. Hopefully it will continue to recover.