Could Free College work in America?

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I am not sure I see why creative writing is absolutely useless.
I didn’t mention “Creative Writing” but here is a sampling of an on line employment offer…
I am looking for a writer to create my E-book on Emergency Survival.
I would prefer a US writer with outstanding native English writhing and speaking skills that has background in outdoor preparedness and survival experience.
The book will cover the following topics below:
  1. Emergency Survival Techniques
  2. Bug out bags
  3. Equipment for Survival use
  4. Living off the land
  5. Plants for food and medicine
  6. Solar Energy (Alternative Energy) for back up use
I would like each of these explained as to how they work and how they benefit each other. I am also looking to tie these subjects to the survivalist. How would a survivalist use these techniques as well as using solar energy projects in a emergency or disaster to be self sustained.
I am willing to give the writer upwards of 2 weeks to complete the project but being early will be rewarded in additional books if the book meets or exceeds my expectations.
I am looking to have some royalty free pictures added through out the book.
A length of roughly 6000 - 8000 words. My budget on the book is set at $60.00.
Must be able to speak and write in English and absolutely no copyright infringement or plagiarism. I will run all content threw a program to make sure its legal work.
If interested in this job please send samples of previous work. If your work is in line with my qualifications I will request a copy of Table of Contents to review before hiring for the job.
Now if $60.00 for 2 weeks per “book” is worth a four year degree then that degree is not useless.

( I know welders who make $80.00 per hour.)
 
Tax doctors to cover cost of med school? Hmm…lets think about this:
  1. In order to get into med school, one must first sacrifice and get very good grades in college. College isn’t free, and many students entering med school have debt.
  2. In order to get into college one merely needs to apply to several schools of their choice, write a few essays, and pay some fees. If a person is smart about it, they might apply to one or two stretch schools, two or three schools they have a good chance at, and maybe one or two “fall backs”. Colleges accept any where from 1000 students to 15,000 students for each class (on average, depending on size of school). For med school, they only average 100 - 200 students per class, give or take. So in order to have a chance at med school, one must apply to many schools, and fly to them for interviews. This costs money…more debt!
  3. When one is in med school, you’re talking $30K per year on the low side (like Baylor in Houston) to the high side of $70-80K per year on the high side)…more debt
  4. In order to get into a particular residency…one has to apply to multiple hospitals…more interviews, more plane tickets, more money, and more debt (I know someone who spent $25K on this process)
  5. Residents are doctors, but don’t make much
  6. Finally, when done with residency, doctors start making money…like when they are 30!
  7. Then, they have to pay outrageous medical malpractice insurance rates
With all that, you want to tax them??? Why make the profession, especially after Obamacare, any less appealing?

People need doctors…tax the people who need them!

(sorry for the diatribe…my son is in medical school!)
When I graduated with a Master’s degree in theology, I had more than $100,000 in debt, financial aid. And I paid for a part of my degree.
 
Ever heard of applying for a scholarship?? Or don’t they offer that anymore? Lots of MOTIVATED kids work their way through college. It provides valuable work experience that will put them ahead on the job applicant line.
(1) The bit about “scholarships” is one of my pet peeves.

“Oh, there are all these scholarships!”

The trouble is, a small scholarship from the local women’s club is not going to even make a dent in the cost of college.

(2) And on “working your way through college,” well, maybe you could do that in the 1940s, when my uncle’s part-time job at the grocery store and the GI Bill just about covered it.
Oh…come on…Have you seen some of the absolutely useless majors some people are trying to get jobs with today?

Anthropology??? Photographic arts? Social Sciences? Graphic Design? Physical Education? Liberal Arts?

There people are going to college for fun…
The other side, though, is that if we did have free college, people who chose majors that didn’t lead to a lot of job opportunities would have to live with their decision.
 
:eek: WHAT? We pick up the tab for kids we don’t know? We are expected to educate a bunch of slackers who want to study “Buddhism”…i think not. You have to give me a better reason to “invest” my hard earned tax contribution.
Yeah, that’s what it means to be part of a society. You already pay tax dollars for a military to kill people you don’t know. You also pay for the primary and secondary public schooling of kids you don’t know.

What precisely is wrong with studying other world religions? The reason you invest in other people’s education is because a more educated society makes for a better society. It leads to more informed decisions in life and in the polls.
Government funding and student loans are the reason for high college and university tuition.

If colleges and universities had to compete for students…tuition would would be dramatically lower.
As it is currently, yes the government student loan program is part but only part of the reason why the cost is so high. However, that is only because universities are run by people who have no incentive to care if the costs are too high. They see money coming in with hardly any strings attached to them. The strings are attached solely to the student, so the university doesn’t have to care how well the student does as long as they attend for a year or so. The administrations essentially run public institutions as for-profit corporations, when public institutions should be non-profit. A ton of jobs now require a college degree, regardless if it is related to the job or not. They use it as a litmus test to see if a person is smart enough for the job.

Compete how? The only thing that the competing as done to the university system is make a joke of higher education. Campus’ now cater to students’ more baser and crude tastes of pleasure rather than the quality of the education. Because the financial position of the universities has been compromised by a leviathan administration and severe cuts of funding at the state level for almost 30 years, they are now forced to commercialize universities. They now spend more money on golf cart-like buses so the lazy don’t have to walk across campus. They now spend more money on attractions that facilitate the stereotypical party culture. And they now spend more money
Ever heard of applying for a scholarship?? Or don’t they offer that anymore? Lots of MOTIVATED kids work their way through college. It provides valuable work experience that will put them ahead on the job applicant line.
I had two scholarships for undergrad and a paid TA job with a tuition waiver for graduate school and still came out with lots of debt. What you speak of as a solution is hardly adequate at all.
Drop outs should not have been college at all. They just take up the space that the MOTIVATED need.
You’re assuming they were never intelligent or motivated to begin with. I have good friends who struggled with poverty and taking care of their relatives at home. I’ve also worked with plenty of great students in college as a TA who faced these same troubles. The financial burden is too great, and so are their full-time jobs in order to graduate. I’ve seen too many students drop out because of these exorbitant costs, and as such they are robbed of better opportunities in addition to those around them being robbed of their untapped potential as well.

Sure working might provide valuable work experience while in college, but more often than not it also causes more people to drop out. If someone wants the work experience while in college, they should only have to work solely because they desire that experience; not because college costs cuts into the money they need to feed themselves or take care of their sick relatives.
Oh…come on…Have you seen some of the absolutely useless majors some people are trying to get jobs with today?

Anthropology??? Photographic arts? Social Sciences? Graphic Design? Physical Education? Liberal Arts?

There people are going to college for fun…
Physical education people actually do well if they go on to graduate school. Anthropology majors do well to do the same and to go abroad. Photographic arts can be highly profitable with the proliferation of media we have today. The social sciences include economics, which I struggle to see how that is useless. Graphic design is also highly marketable. And liberal arts education, while a difficult path to follow, is not useless.
 
Um. If you have a lot of people who have fresh college degrees and cannot get jobs, how does it fix anything to increase the number of people with degrees (especially by taxing the people with jobs until their eyeballs fall out)? Isn’t there some kind of supply and demand thing going on? Does every worker in the McDonald’s need a degree, instead of 1 in 10 (or whatever it is)?

I don’t disagree with your ideas on reducing university administration costs, because regardless of who’s paying for it, higher education should be less expensive. But it seems like the people coming out of college who can’t get a job are a pretty strong argument against making taxpayers pay for it, which is what the thread is about.

–Jen
The unemployment rate for people without college degrees is astronomically higher than those with degrees. It is better to have one than to not. People should either go on to trade school or go to college, and both should be affordable.
 
This is such a canard. The people who are left jobless after getting a degree aren’t just people in the liberal arts, although the liberal arts have been disproportionately affected. It’s affecting the sciences too. This is hardly an argument against making college more affordable.
Canard??? I would say its math.

According to the Institute of Museum & Library Services there are just over 35,000 museums in the US. How many job openings can there be?

Compare that to 98,000 public schools (not counting private schools or colleges), which need education majors at multiple grade levels.

I’m for making college more affordable, but I am not for government money going for majors that there is either very low demand for, or worthless (like “ancient texts”)
 
What precisely is wrong with studying other world religions? The reason you invest in other people’s education is because a more educated society makes for a better society. It leads to more informed decisions in life and in the polls.
Isn’t that what libraries are for?

I’m all for finding ways to make college less expensive, but for majors not in demand, go to the library.
 
Isn’t that what libraries are for?

I’m all for finding ways to make college less expensive, but for majors not in demand, go to the library.
Have you ever thought as to who wrote those library books? They don’t just write themselves.
Canard??? I would say its math.

According to the Institute of Museum & Library Services there are just over 35,000 museums in the US. How many job openings can there be?

Compare that to 98,000 public schools (not counting private schools or colleges), which need education majors at multiple grade levels.

I’m for making college more affordable, but I am not for government money going for majors that there is either very low demand for, or worthless (like “ancient texts”)
It’s a canard to think the mass unemployment only affects the “useless” degrees. Yes, it disproportionately affects the liberal arts, etc. but it has had a serious affect on STEM too.

Education majors are essential, so we agree. I’d also like to point out that in many states students who major in lets say English or Math, and then complete certification or take some education courses during college are far superior than straight-up education majors in teaching. The difference becomes more pronounced when moving on to advanced degrees. Sadly, most states don’t allow people without degrees in Education to teach in their subjects, even if they have a Masters in Math, Science, or History. Often, alternative certification isn’t even an option.
 
Have you ever thought as to who wrote those library books? They don’t just write themselves.
Yes, they were written by a very small percentage of people, compared with the number of people who have taken classes on the subjects written about.

If a person wants to learn about world religions, go to the library. Want to write a book on the subject? Go to college on your own dime, because when it comes time to priorize how tax dollars get spent, paying for thousands of people to major in World Religions hoping that one or two might write a book is a very poor bet.
It’s a canard to think the mass unemployment only affects the “useless” degrees. Yes, it disproportionately affects the liberal arts, etc. but it has had a serious affect on STEM too.

Education majors are essential, so we agree. I’d also like to point out that in many states students who major in lets say English or Math, and then complete certification or take some education courses during college are far superior than straight-up education majors in teaching. The difference becomes more pronounced when moving on to advanced degrees.
Its only a canard when you create a strawman. I never said unemployment only impacts useless degrees. I know all majors are impacted as well, HOWEVER, certain majors provide a better chance at unemployment…that is fact.

The point was made earlier by someone else about helping motivated students pay for college…there is merit in doing that…but we should be helping them with something that will give them the best chance to make a living. Another fact, unfortunate but true, is that our country runs a deficit and has about $17-19T of debt. We have to make choices and tradeoffs. We already offer everyone a free education thru high school. Most colleges offer need based scholarships to promising students that make college virtually free for poorer students. Offering “free” college will only make it harder for an already over taxed middle class to get by.
 
Rohzek, you can disagree with me all you want, but you have nothing but you own say so that people are taking 5-6 years to complete college solely because of the astronomical cost of tuition. For example, are you prepared to demonstrate this by, say, statistics of how many people complete degrees in 5+ years; their reasons proferred; their debt compared to people who graduate in less time, etc., so if you can’t offer that, I’d be careful about saying my ideas are absurd.
 
Rohzek, you can disagree with me all you want, but you have nothing but you own say so that people are taking 5-6 years to complete college solely because of the astronomical cost of tuition. For example, are you prepared to demonstrate this by, say, statistics of how many people complete degrees in 5+ years; their reasons proferred; their debt compared to people who graduate in less time, etc., so if you can’t offer that, I’d be careful about saying my ideas are absurd.
No hard evidence, but everything I’ve read in career-oriented articles in the past few years seems to indicate that fewer people do the “traditional” four years solid full time after high school and more people go over a longer period.

I was told in the 1990s that the term “nontraditional” student is no longer appropriate for students age 25 and up; they’re now called “adult” students, because someone age 25 and up still going to college isn’t “nontraditional” any more.

Now whether that’s because of the cost of college, or partly because of other factors, I can’t be sure.
 
To answer the question posted by the OP…

Could Free College work in America?

Yes! It could work, but the degrees would be worthless. Remember the world needs ditch diggers as well as PhD’s.

While some poor schmuck is getting his free degree in plumbing, a high school drop-out could be getting four years experience WORKING as an apprentice. When the plumbing contractor has an opening for a journeyman plumber he will ask the college graduate if he can install toilets. The Grad will say: I understand the theory and I know how much time it should take…but I have never actually done it.". The drop-out can say: “Sure I’ve installed hundreds of toilets…and I have my own tools.” Who do you think will start work that day?

But more importantly…this subject seems to really be about equality. Some college degrees result in higher paying jobs due to the reputation of the college/university.
These colleges/universities are usually difficult to get into and cost a lot more than the local “State” college.

Some people think this is unfair and that a free college education will solve this inequality.

It won’t.

There will always be those want the best education, deserve it, and can afford it. They will pay for their education while others gain a free degree. Again when the jobs open up…the kid with the degree from the impressive college has the advantage. It may SEEM unfair…but that is life.
 
Rohzek, you can disagree with me all you want, but you have nothing but you own say so that people are taking 5-6 years to complete college solely because of the astronomical cost of tuition. For example, are you prepared to demonstrate this by, say, statistics of how many people complete degrees in 5+ years; their reasons proferred; their debt compared to people who graduate in less time, etc., so if you can’t offer that, I’d be careful about saying my ideas are absurd.
Sure, I’ll supply some stuff.

brockport.edu/career01/upromise.htm

usnews.com/education/best-colleges/articles/2012/09/13/consider-pros-and-cons-of-working-in-college

business.time.com/2013/01/10/the-myth-of-the-4-year-college-degree/

money.cnn.com/2004/06/21/pf/college/graduation_rates/
 
Rohzek, you can disagree with me all you want, but you have nothing but you own say so that people are taking 5-6 years to complete college solely because of the astronomical cost of tuition. For example, are you prepared to demonstrate this by, say, statistics of how many people complete degrees in 5+ years; their reasons proferred; their debt compared to people who graduate in less time, etc., so if you can’t offer that, I’d be careful about saying my ideas are absurd.
I will say one thing, I took the 5 year route, actually 5.5 years.

The reason being: Engineering Co-ops. The final ‘2’ years were set up to work a semester doing Engineering work, they back to school for the semester.

Worked out pretty well, as engineering work is relatively highly paid, even for a co-op student.

Between that, and ROTC, I came out debt free.
 
Rohzek, I read the links but they don’t really say what you claim they do. My takeaway for them is that more students are working but they don’t really correlate that to the original proposition you offer other than anecdotally. Students can work for any number of reasons; the woman who worked in the coffee shop seemed to like having a paycheck, and lots of students work campus jobs for “walking around money.” Either way, it’s a long way between that and a need for free (taxpayer funded) tuition.
 
Rohzek, I read the links but they don’t really say what you claim they do. My takeaway for them is that more students are working but they don’t really correlate that to the original proposition you offer other than anecdotally. Students can work for any number of reasons; the woman who worked in the coffee shop seemed to like having a paycheck, and lots of students work campus jobs for “walking around money.” Either way, it’s a long way between that and a need for free (taxpayer funded) tuition.
Yes, they do say what I said. What I said was that those who have to work full-time or more in order to meet the costs of college generally have higher drop out rates. They can’t meet both their financial needs and their school needs because they don’t have enough time. The woman you speak of only worked 15 hours per week part-time, something I did while in college. Part-time work hardly has any negative effect at all. In fact, it has a positive effect. But for those who are tremendously poor or want to avoid crippling debt, the only alternative usually is to work full time to meet the costs. The deck is generally stacked against the poor.

From link 1:
Full-time work, on the other hand, does appear to have negative effects on student enrollment rates and academic performance. It is therefore of particular concern that full-time work among full-time college students has risen sharply over the past 15 years. For these students, the research suggests that, if possible, it may be prudent to find other ways of financing college so they can complete their degrees, maintain their academic performance levels, and thereby reap the long-term benefits of a college education.
From link 2:
One downside to working in college, however, is the potential for students to work so much that their jobs interfere with their college goals and academic progress. UPenn’s Perna explains that “working a higher number of hours, especially when the employment is off campus, increases time to [a] degree and reduces the likelihood of completing a degree.”
Perna agrees that finding a balance between financial and academic obligations can be a challenge. “While working more than 15 hours per week may be financially necessary,” she says, “I suggest that students first be sure that they have taken full advantage of all available sources of financial aid, especially financial aid in the form of grants.”
In short, meeting financial obligations during college can be stressful. When people work full time, their chances of dropping out increase because they have to meet their financial needs. If college was therefore less or free, they would be able to work less hours.

Link 3:
At Purdue University, improving the four-year graduation rate is a priority for administrators. The school hopes to improve its four-year rate from 42% to 50% by 2014 and to 70% in the coming decade. “The biggest thing we can do to lower cost is make sure that every student who wants to finish in four years has the ability do so,” says Tim Sands, acting president of Purdue. “If we can increase our graduation rate and decrease time to degree modestly … we give more students an opportunity to get a Purdue degree.”
The president of Purdue even acknowledges that people who work a lot during college in order to meet its costs generally are not able to graduate in 4 years. Why? Because they must work full time, which cuts into school time and/or they do not have the money to take 15+ hours a semester.

Link 4:
A lack of adequate funds or a family crisis may keep a student away for a semester or more. (The six-year graduation rate of low-income students is 54 percent compared with 77 percent for high-income students, the Education Trust found.)
Econ 101: Payin’ for it anyway
Even if a student is doing well academically, there’s a cost to prolonging the bachelor’s journey. Some schools will charge you per term, rather than per credit. So whether you’re taking a full load or a light one, you still pay full fare. And for every semester you stay beyond four years, the money out of your pocket (or the increase in your loan balance) can be considerable.
If you’re only paying by tuition credit, it won’t be quite as onerous. But you can be sure those credits will cost you more in the fifth and sixth years than they would have in any of the first four, given that annual college tuition increases have outpaced inflation for the past 20 years.
And for students who rely on Pell Grants to help foot the bill, they may find themselves in a pickle if they try to play catch-up to graduate in four years by taking summer courses. That’s because Pell grants are only given for study during the traditional academic year, Boyle said.
But the cost is greatest for those who never graduate. Forget the fact that you’ll never get a refund for the credits you did take or that the debt you incurred won’t be forgiven. The hit to your lifetime earnings is dramatic.
“Half of the credits you need for a degree don’t get you half of what a college degree gets you in the job market. … It gets you very little,” Carey said.
 
LOL, the people working increasing from half to 57% is not earth shattering. This is also during a period where there has been an increase in programs specifically targeted at working professionals, hence the increase in ‘adult’ students. My MBA program was only offered weekends and evenings, for example.

The people running up the huge debts are not working full time and attending day classes at an expensive ivy league or state school.
 
LOL, the people working increasing from half to 57% is not earth shattering. This is also during a period where there has been an increase in programs specifically targeted at working professionals, hence the increase in ‘adult’ students. My MBA program was only offered weekends and evenings, for example.

The people running up the huge debts are not working full time and attending day classes at an expensive ivy league or state school.
The study is from 2000/2001. The % has only risen. Actually, if you reread the links provided, those who work full-time are less likely to pass. Furthermore, they are more likely to default on their student loans (if they took any despite working) because statistically the lack of a college degree means that they will not have access to higher pay.

The number is currently around 70-80%. 20% of those work more than double the amount of time recommended for undergraduates who attend college:

cbsnews.com/news/more-students-working-a-lot-in-college/

thinkprogress.org/economy/2013/08/07/2428351/nearly-80-of-students-are-working-while-in-school/

As for graduate programs, it varies. Most graduate programs aren’t like MBA’s where you can attend classes only on nights and weekends while working the rest of the week. Some, such as the one I was in, forbid us from working unless it was an on-campus job.
 
I’m all for more affordable college tuition, but not free college. And, like some other posters, I don’t want my tax dollars to be spent on useless degrees like Renaissance French, Creative Writing, Poetry, etc. I do have a Masters in French, but it’s modern day French, and that degree I paid for myself.

Personally, I think we need to put more emphasis on excellence in trade and technical schools. Schools that prepare a person for a job, even a highly paid job in some instances. We need to eliminate useless programs. For instance, why does a civil engineer or someone in IT have to have a certain number of psychology credits? They will never use them. We are wasting our resources. I’m not saying we should eliminate psychology. Those who want to be psychologists need those courses. But I didn’t for my degree in French, yet I had to take them, and I had to take more for my degree in theology. More concentration on the major and less on the “other stuff.” I can understand why everyone should take English. Writing clearly is necessary in almost every job, but history? It makes one a more well rounded person, educationally, but other than that, it’s a waste of time and money except for historians.
 
Just what we need. Fixing the ONLY educational institution that works in this country.

Just ask out there where do people go to get the best College education in the world?

Europe? Asia? Africa? South America?

Nope it is the USA. People flock to this country from everywhere to get the best education specially on the technical fields.
I so hope the politicians don’t screw that one too.

I think you might be right when thinking of graduate degrees, some undergraduate degrees in the US are not at the level of European Universities.

I worked with European people who thought it odd one could attend college and get a degree in film history for example.
 
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