Could God have created free beings that always choose to do the good?

[YosefYosep]

If it is logically possible that God could have created a world in which persons always freely choose the good, then he must not be all-good. For if he was, he wouldn’t subject us to the needless suffering of this world when there was clearly a better alternative. If he isn’t able to create a logically possible world then he most not be all-powerful. In other words, if a world where created beings always freely choose the good is possible, and God (all-good and all-powerful) didn’t create it, then it shows that God probably doesn’t exist.

Anyone wanna take a stab?

 

[o_mlly]

If it is logically possible that God could have created a world in which persons always freely choose the good, then he must not be all-good. For if he was, he wouldn’t subject us to the needless suffering of this world when there was clearly a better alternative. If he isn’t able to create a logically possible world then he most not be all-powerful. In other words, if a world where created beings always freely choose the good is possible, and God (all-good and all-powerful) didn’t create it, then it shows that God probably doesn’t exist.

Anyone wanna take a stab?

I believe the highlighted phrase suffers an internal contradiction: a person designed to choose only the good does not possess free will by definition.

 

[PumpkinCookie]

If it is logically possible that God could have created a world in which persons always freely choose the good, then he must not be all-good. For if he was, he wouldn’t subject us to the needless suffering of this world when there was clearly a better alternative. If he isn’t able to create a logically possible world then he most not be all-powerful. In other words, if a world where created beings always freely choose the good is possible, and God (all-good and all-powerful) didn’t create it, then it shows that God probably doesn’t exist.

Anyone wanna take a stab?

what follows is not a “Catholic” answer just FYI

I personally believe that God is creating a world in which free persons always choose the good but he isn’t done quite yet. He isn’t done yet, and we’re not done yet. We create this world together and it isn’t fully finished right now, in my opinion.

But…why so much shocking and horrifying evil? Why so much suffering? Just so we can have a hand in creation? That doesn’t seem like a good enough reason! Why couldn’t God have created us and this existence in a steady state of absolute unchanging perfection? Wouldn’t that be better? I think so…but then again I’m not sure any of us could exist in that world. We couldn’t be “us.” I think maybe God really wants each of us to exist, and unfortunately we exist here and now, just as we are, in the midst of this beautiful, good, evil, and seemingly insane mess of a universe.

And so, yes I think we can be angry with God for allowing so much evil just so each of us can exist. We can wish none of us were ever born so that the logically possible theoretical free persons could have had an existence of uninterrupted blessedness. I understand that, but what if it works out for everyone in the end? What if this evil is only temporary and some day all of us will be those free persons who always choose the good? What ifthis existence is a virtuous spiral anchored in the mud but spinning endlessly into heaven? Maybe it’s just childish nonsense, but it’s my hope.

 

[YosefYosep]

I believe the highlighted phrase suffers an internal contradiction: a person designed to choose only the good does not possess free will by definition.

I wouldn’t say so. God, as we Catholics believe, created Mary to be sinless. She chose only to do the good. We still believe, however, that she freely chose this good.

 

[JapaneseKappa]

I believe the highlighted phrase suffers an internal contradiction: a person designed to choose only the good does not possess free will by definition.

Lets say that we are God, and setting about to create a universe in which 3 decisions get made by a free-will-having person. Those decisions can either be good (G) or bad (B). Then we have exactly 2^3 = 8 possible combinations of decision-outcomes:

1: (G,G,G)
2: (G,G,B)
3: (G,B,G)
4: (G,B,B)
5: (B,G,G)
6: (B,B,G)
7: (B,G,B)
8: (B,B,B)

Now, as far as your objection goes, the (G,G,G) scenario is not unique. In other words, if we designed world 7: (B,G,B) we could make the exact same type of objection: “A person designed to choose bad, then good, then bad again does not posses free will by definition!”

And so the conclusion, it seems to me, is that either God cannot know prior to creation which world he was creating (if he did, we can raise your objection) or we do not actually have free will.

 

[DrTaffy]

I believe the highlighted phrase suffers an internal contradiction: a person designed to choose only the good does not possess free will by definition.

If there is only one good.

What of beings who only choose good, but choose ‘freely’ between good options?

 

[YosefYosep]

If there is only one good.

What of beings who only choose good, but choose ‘freely’ between good options?

Right, one who only chooses the good still has free will. Free will, for me, means that you have a capacity to carry out actions that are not causally determined by someone or something else. So for instance, if God caused us all to do good then we wouldn’t have free will–we probably wouldn’t even be considered persons at all. But what I’m trying to get at is whether God could have created a world where free agents freely choose the good all the time. If He could then why didn’t he? If there’s the possibility that such a world is a viable option for God and he didn’t take it, then God probably doesn’t exist–or at least not our classical understanding of Him as an omniscient, omnipotent, and omnibenevolent being.

 

[1Lord1Faith]

If it is logically possible that God could have created a world in which persons always freely choose the good, then he must not be all-good. For if he was, he wouldn’t subject us to the needless suffering of this world when there was clearly a better alternative. If he isn’t able to create a logically possible world then he most not be all-powerful. In other words, if a world where created beings always freely choose the good is possible, and God (all-good and all-powerful) didn’t create it, then it shows that God probably doesn’t exist.

Anyone wanna take a stab?

This argument puts forth a lot of linear logic and that does not apply to God. RC Church believes in redemptive suffering. So our idea of what is good is sometimes different from God’s.

 

[YosefYosep]

This argument puts forth a lot of linear logic and that does not apply to God. RC Church believes in redemptive suffering. So our idea of what is good is sometimes different from God’s.

Could you elaborate more on how redemptive suffering would nullify this argument?

 

[1Lord1Faith]

Could you elaborate more on how redemptive suffering would nullify this argument?

If a person chooses to offer their suffering to God, it helps to purify the soul. Hence, suffering can be good if one chooses it to be.

 

[JuanFlorencio]

If it is logically possible that God could have created a world in which persons always freely choose the good, then he must not be all-good. For if he was, he wouldn’t subject us to the needless suffering of this world when there was clearly a better alternative. If he isn’t able to create a logically possible world then he most not be all-powerful. In other words, if a world where created beings always freely choose the good is possible, and God (all-good and all-powerful) didn’t create it, then it shows that God probably doesn’t exist.

Anyone wanna take a stab?

Let me see…

1. 
   *]A world is perfect if nor evil nor suffering are possible in it
   *]If a good, omnipotent being decides to create a world, and a perfect world is logically possible, He decides to create a perfect world
   *]A perfect world is logically possible
   *]If God exists then He is good and omnipotent
   *]An omnipotent being can create a perfect world
   *]This world is not perfect
   *]Therefore, either it is false that God exists, or it is false that God is good and omnipotent, or it is false that God created this world, or it is false that a perfect world is logically possible.
   
   To get to your conclusion you would need to prove some of the antecedent statements. Otherwise you would get stuck in the last statement. Why don’t you try to prove that a perfect world, as you conceive it, is logically possible?
   
   I used to think that Catholics take for granted that God exists, and from there and others additional doctrines they try to become perfect, as God our father is perfect. Here I have come to learn that some Catholics make efforts to demonstrate that God does not exist. Does it demonstrate that this world is not perfect?

 

[YosefYosep]

If a person chooses to offer their suffering to God, it helps to purify the soul. Hence, suffering can be good if one chooses it to be.

Would it not still stand, however, that God could have created a world where people don’t endure moral evils because they always freely choose the good, and therefore they would need no purification–seeing as they always choose the good, and are always conforming to the will of God?

If this hypothetical world is logically possible and better than our world, then why didn’t God choose to create it?

 

[YosefYosep]

Let me see…

1. 
   *]A world is perfect if nor evil nor suffering are possible in it
   *]If a good, omnipotent being decides to create a world, and a perfect world is logically possible, He decides to create a perfect world
   *]A perfect world is logically possible
   *]If God exists then He is good and omnipotent
   *]An omnipotent being can create a perfect world
   *]This world is not perfect
   *]Therefore, either it is false that God exists, or it is false that God is good and omnipotent, or it is false that God created this world, or it is false that a perfect world is logically possible.
   
   To get to your conclusion you would need to prove some of the antecedent statements. Otherwise you would get stuck in the last statement. Why don’t you try to prove that a perfect world, as you conceive it, is logically possible?

1. 
   That’s what I’m trying to figure out. Is a world where everyone freely chooses the good logically possible? And if it is possible, does this logically entail that God does not exist or is at least something drastically different than we think He is?

 

[JuanFlorencio]

That’s what I’m trying to figure out. Is a world where everyone freely chooses the good logically possible? And if it is possible, does this logically entail that God does not exist or is at least something drastically different than we think He is?

Well, there are good books on Logic available. Look for one of them, and find the appropriate axioms to start solidly. What else?..

Should I wish you to be successful in your endeavor?

 

[YosefYosep]

Well, there are good books on Logic available. Look for one of them, and find the appropriate axioms to start solidly. What else?..

Should I wish you to be successful in your endeavor?

Thanks for the advice. It’s just been an issue I’ve been mulling over for the past couple of days. Very irritating.

 

[1Lord1Faith]

Would it not still stand, however, that God could have created a world where people don’t endure moral evils because they always freely choose the good, and therefore they would need no purification–seeing as they always choose the good, and are always conforming to the will of God?

If this hypothetical world is logically possible and better than our world, then why didn’t God choose to create it?

I believe your argument would defeat the purpose of the world. There is certainly something we don’t understand about why our eternal souls have to endure this world. What is that purpose, I am not sure.

There is also a argument that good and evil are so intertwined that one cannot exist without the other outside of the confines of God himself.

 

[JapaneseKappa]

That’s what I’m trying to figure out. Is a world where everyone freely chooses the good logically possible? And if it is possible, does this logically entail that God does not exist or is at least something drastically different than we think He is?

I think it is clearly logically possible. The negation of it is very troubling.

Consider the scenario where God creates a universe with the intent to end the universe at the exact instant the first free-will decision gets made.

If it were not logically possible to have a universe where everyone always chose the good, then the first decision is necessarily evil. After all, if it were good, and then God ended the world, we would have a logically impossible situation: a universe in which everyone always chose the good.

 

[YosefYosep]

I think it is clearly logically possible. The negation of it is very troubling.

Consider the scenario where God creates a universe with the intent to end the universe at the exact instant the first free-will decision gets made.

If it were not logically possible to have a universe where everyone always chose the good, then the first decision is necessarily evil. After all, if it were good, and then God ended the world, we would have a logically impossible situation: a universe in which everyone always chose the good.

Hmmm I like the scenario. However, this wouldn’t be everyone. It would be just one person, given that God destroys the universe after the first free will decision is made. My other issue is this term “always.” When we say always, what do we mean? And if we are dreaming up a world where persons always choose the good, does this imply that God has rigged it in such a way that people cannot choose the other way? In such a case, then, God would be infringing on our free will and therefore we wouldn’t be free agents.

 

[YosefYosep]

I believe your argument would defeat the purpose of the world. There is certainly something we don’t understand about why our eternal souls have to endure this world. What is that purpose, I am not sure.

There is also a argument that good and evil are so intertwined that one cannot exist without the other outside of the confines of God himself.

At least one of our purposes is to discern God. Is this not why we’re here, to freely choose our eternities?

 

[o_mlly]

what follows is not a “Catholic” answer just FYI …

What follows is the Catholic position; from the CCC:
*310 But why did God not create a world so perfect that no evil could exist in it? With infinite power God could always create something better.174 But with infinite wisdom and goodness God freely willed to create a world “in a state of journeying” towards its ultimate perfection. In God’s plan this process of becoming involves the appearance of certain beings and the disappearance of others, the existence of the more perfect alongside the less perfect, both constructive and destructive forces of nature. With physical good there exists also physical evil as long as creation has not reached perfection.175

311 Angels and men, as intelligent and free creatures, have to journey toward their ultimate destinies by their free choice and preferential love. They can therefore go astray. Indeed, they have sinned. Thus has moral evil, incommensurably more harmful than physical evil, entered the world. God is in no way, directly or indirectly, the cause of moral evil.176 He permits it, however, because he respects the freedom of his creatures and, mysteriously, knows how to derive good from it:

For almighty God. . ., because he is supremely good, would never allow any evil whatsoever to exist in his works if he were not so all-powerful and good as to cause good to emerge from evil itself.177

312 In time we can discover that God in his almighty providence can bring a good from the consequences of an evil, even a moral evil, caused by his creatures: “It was not you”, said Joseph to his brothers, "who sent me here, but God. . . You meant evil against me; but God meant it for good, to bring it about that many people should be kept alive."178 From the greatest moral evil ever committed - the rejection and murder of God’s only Son, caused by the sins of all men - God, by his grace that “abounded all the more”,179 brought the greatest of goods: the glorification of Christ and our redemption. But for all that, evil never becomes a good. *