Could God know our decisions only by given circumstances?

[STT]

I really don’t understand the point of your question. It’s not God’s foreknowledge that lets him know our decisions, he knows what’s in our minds and hearts at all times. You think God can’t read our minds?

We are not talking about the fact whether God knows what is inside our mind. We are talking about whether God can know our decision only by given circumstances.

But just to play along, yes God could know our decisions only by circumstances. I have heard theologians saying that angels and demons know what we will do because they are such excellent judges of human nature. Since they are the creatures and God is the creator it stands to reason that he is at least as good at reading human nature if not better.

Doesn’t that mean that we don’t have free will? It does.

 

[STT]

It does not. Please elaborate.

Free decision is not bounded by circumstances. It is in fact the ability to decide no matter what circumstances are.

 

[Wesrock]

Free decision is not bounded by circumstances. It is in fact the ability to decide no matter what circumstances are.

Free will is simply the choosing of the will towards certain ends by the intellect and not by external forces.

God knows us fully. God knows everything fully. And this is by virtue of us being by an act of God, which He knows fully. God knows what we choose under any circumstances. We can fall into a pit if we think of God existing temporally. The term “foreknowledge” implies knowledge before something happens, but God isn’t in time, and He knows His act as it happens within his eternal, non-temporal existence.

Thomists and Molinists disagree in some respects on how free will and God’s knowledge works. An analogy to the Molinist conception would be like a computer programmer creating a program in which its agents have free will. Every possible simulation is run. Everything that could be different is run in a different simulation. The created agents within each simulation operate according to their own free will. The programmer then picks one to make actual. Again, that’s just an analogy; God doesn’t need to “run” simulations. He simply has all knowledge of every possible variation, and in His will we creates one. God knows all and all of our destinations. We have free will. Not too complicated. It’s a bit harder to come up with an analogy for a Thomist conception. I’ll have to think on that one.

But yes, God knows which way our will will move in any set of circumstances. And that will was freely directed by us and not forced.

 

[seagal]

Doesn’t that mean that we don’t have free will? It does.

How on earth did you get “no free will” from what I said? Knowing human nature and making a good guess at your responses is pretty much what so-called psychics do when they do a cold reading.

We are not talking about the fact whether God knows what is inside our mind. We are talking about whether God can know our decision only by given circumstances.

In essence your question is “If God wasn’t God could he still know stuff God knows.”

Pointless question.

 

[STT]

Free will is simply the choosing of the will towards certain ends by the intellect and not by external forces.

If that is true then external forces (and even internal forces), circumstances, cannot tell what the decision of a person would be.

God knows us fully. God knows everything fully. And this is by virtue of us being by an act of God, which He knows fully. God knows what we choose under any circumstances. We can fall into a pit if we think of God existing temporally. The term “foreknowledge” implies knowledge before something happens, but God isn’t in time, and He knows His act as it happens within his eternal, non-temporal existence.

But God can come out of His eternal now and dwells in the universe which is of course is temporal. Couldn’t He? Of course He could. So now the question is whether God can know the decision of a person before He decide just only by given circumstances.

Thomists and Molinists disagree in some respects on how free will and God’s knowledge works. An analogy to the Molinist conception would be like a computer programmer creating a program in which its agents have free will. Every possible simulation is run. Everything that could be different is run in a different simulation. The created agents within each simulation operate according to their own free will. The programmer then picks one to make actual.

A programmed being cannot be free since any program works with (name removed by moderator)uts ,circumstances, and produce output.

Again, that’s just an analogy; God doesn’t need to “run” simulations. He simply has all knowledge of every possible variation, and in His will we creates one. God knows all and all of our destinations. We have free will. Not too complicated. It’s a bit harder to come up with an analogy for a Thomist conception. I’ll have to think on that one.

So lets see.

But yes, God knows which way our will will move in any set of circumstances. And that will was freely directed by us and not forced.

That contradicts with free will as it is discussed in the first comment.

 

[STT]

How on earth did you get “no free will” from what I said? Knowing human nature and making a good guess at your responses is pretty much what so-called psychics do when they do a cold reading.

The decision as you mentioned in your comment is related to free will.

In essence your question is “If God wasn’t God could he still know stuff God knows.”

Pointless question.

That is not what I am saying. You can read my post carefully again.

 

[STT]

Ah, but that would mean that we don’t have free will, because in order for God to deduce what we’ll do under a given set of circumstances, the outcome must be deterministic.

Therefore you only have two choices, either God can’t deduce what we’d do, or we don’t have free will.

If not how God could create us?

 

[dshix]

Ah, but that would mean that we don’t have free will, because in order for God to deduce what we’ll do under a given set of circumstances, the outcome must be deterministic.

Therefore you only have two choices, either God can’t deduce what we’d do, or we don’t have free will.

This is actually incorrect. Since God is our creator, is outside of time, and has complete knowledge of us, free will is not compromised.

Foreknowledge does NOT equal predetermination. God doesn’t decide what we will do, but simply knows it. He is outside of time. Though from our vantage points our future free will choices have not yet been made, God, seeing all things as in His present, can see all our actions, and so, from our reference point, knows our “future”.