Could God punish our nation for its declining morality?

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US of A doesn’t hold a monopoly in the declining morality stakes…good old Mother Ireland is about to betray itself in the abortion scandal. One of the last countries in the world where abortion is illegal is on the verge of making it legal. We hang our heads in shame. We have allowed the Satanists to grip our politicians and persuaded them that it is OK to dilute God’s commandments…gay marriage has crept in too! Alas, we must not despair, we must never betray the Holy Spirit with the sin of despair. Our prayers are many and will continue to bombard Heaven…this coming Saturday there is a massive prayer / rosary gathering in Dublin against abortion…Your mighty country USA could come to our rescue by saying all your rosaries for Mother Ireland this weekend…and who knows?..you might even appease God and lessen what punishment might be coming your way.
GOD BLESS AMERICA
 
it entirely depends on your point of view.

1920 sounds great, but mostly if you (collectively) were a white protestant male.

not so good in general because of gems like the Sedition Act of 1918, the* Espionage Act of 1917*, or if you (collective you) were a philippine or puerto rican who wasn’t a fan of living in a US colony; a Haitian or citizen of the Dominican Republic who didn’t like US military occupation and US installed puppet governments, or a native american, black (including blacks who like to vote) or catholic from the wrong country of origin. still in office: Woodrow Wilson, probably the worst civil rights president ever. still in the future: Brown v Board (separate but equal and Jim Crow were still going strong), as well as the KKK; the *Miranda * case (police could and did beat confessions out of the right kind of suspects).

1920? I’d love it, if I were the right kind of person.
I don’t understand the 1920 proposal, either. Racism, anti-Semitism, sexism, homophobia were all comparatively greater problems in America then, than they are today.

Even the issues of divorce, contraception, abortion, and gay marriage may be – at the very least – a reaction against very real repressive elements in the culture in prior decades, for example:

–divorce: women in unhappy marriages with no literally no way out, as they had no financial independence.

–gay marriage: in past decades, homosexuals were practically as “hunted” a class of citizens as Catholics are today in some Islamic societies; they had no legal protections against discrimination and were mostly intimidated into silence and secrecy (keep in mind that a repressive Islamic society can use the argument that comparisons between religion and race are invalid, because religion is a lifestyle choice and a behavior, a behavior that can be changed; this is the double-edged sword in arguing, along similar lines, that comparisons between race and sexual orientation are invalid)

–contraception: it was women who stood the most to gain from this; for a woman to decide how many children to have was an assertion of autonomy and independence, and goes hand-in-hand with women in the workforce (including married women in the workforce)

–abortion: again, an assertion of female autonomy; if this was an overcompensation, then it was an overcompensation fueled by decades, if not centuries, of sexism and lack of female autonomy (it wasn’t too long ago, after all, that there was a certain limited number of “female professions” like teacher, nurse, flight attendant, secretary; one could practically count them on one’s fingers); rightly or wrongly, a woman had – for the first time – the same benefit that a man always had, namely the right to separate the procreative element of sex from the pleasurable element (man have always had this right, and always will, not morally but in reality)

As regards women, sexual harrassment in the workplace was once considered a working woman’s “lot in life.”

The demise of censorship laws, and the introduction of violence in movies, and pornography, went hand-in-hand with greater liberty of expression, of which religious liberty is itself a manifestation. A society that enforced strict standards of decency was also, not surprisingly, a society that enforced standards of decency regarding such things as race-mixing (when television was more “decent”, people of color were conspicuously absent from television screens), religious belief (practicing Jews were all but invisible, in the years when television was “clean and decent”, and Jews were often as closeted as homosexuals), and the proper role of a woman vis-a-vis a man (either housewife or teacher of young children).
 
@Holly3278 - The Texas abortion bill that bans abortions after 20 weeks has just been voted on by the committee and will go to the House Floor. Don’t count us out yet! PRAY PRAY PRAY!!
 
I am beginning to think that Russia may play a large part in re-Christianizing the West. I don’t know about Africa though as I really don’t know much about Christianity in Africa. Why do you think it would be African missionaries that would re-Christianize the West?
I spend a few weeks each year in Tanzania, working with the local bishop there to get computers (and electricity) into his schools.

What really amazes me is how on fire the people are there for the Faith. I regularly encounter people who will walk for 4-6 miles with their small children on their backs to go to Mass.

If the homily is less that 2 hours (3 hours if the bishop is speaking) they complain, they feel they are somehow getting ‘gypped’ by receiving a short homily.

The seminaries are full and could be even larger if the bishops had the resources to educate more.

A continent that once received missionaries from elsewhere is now sending priests in large numbers to the US and Europe. A neighboring parish just got a new associate pastor from Kenya ( and I finally got someone to practice my very poor Kiswahili with 👍)
 
So… sexual morality is declining but everything else is getting better?

Since 1973 over 50 million unborn children have been killed—an entire generation, missing. Since the sexual revolution, contraception has de-linked marriage from children, making things worse for children. Divorce and cohabitation have the same effect—making adults happy at the expense of children. Widespread fornication means that we do not even notice the link between sex and procreation, and abortion is an easy out. Fifty percent of marriages end in divorce. Children are the losers.

Sure, it’s only sexual immorality. Has it made things better? Has it made things better for children with no fathers, children who are shuffled from parent to parent, children in foster care, children who are killed in the womb?

Now, same sex marriage will destroy even the most basic aspect of marriage, that of sexual complementarity. Family depends on marriage. Can a society exist without marriage? Can it exist without families?
👍
 
I completely disagree that our morality is declining.

Now, same sex marriage is legal.

50 years ago we made black people sit on the backs of buses and use their own bathrooms.

150 years ago slavery was legal.

I think the problem is many Catholics get “sexual morality” confused with “morality”. Our sexual morality may be going down, but we are advancing in many other forms of morality. I think God would have been much more disappointed in slavery than in same sex marriage.
Same sex marriage and slavery are both immoral.Correcting the evil of slavery was a huge human rights issue.Same sex marriage is not.It is a blatant offense against natural order.Comparing the two is an apples to oranges comparison.God cannot be happy with slippery slope of legalizing homosexual unions.
 
look at the thread topic. moral decline in “our nation”. my point: its bad everywhere, slightly better here.

you think there were good ol’ days? when were they?

this is not a rhetorical question.
When people believed in an absolute truth, goodness, and also in virtue.
 
“everything is fine” is a strawman.

I think things have been more or less rotten all along with a slight trend towards less rotten.

I’ll match the current moral panic du jour (gays infiltrating the boy scouts) with … where should I start? let’s cherrypick, one for one.

what would a east european Jew, circa 1940, think about western cultural decay?

ProTip: she wouldn’t be saying something like, “they might be shoveling us into ovens but at least Scouting Poland isn’t overun with gays”.
Well written.

One observation about the National Socialists. Before they built the concentration camps, they disbanded the Boy Scouts and started the Hitler Jugend.

So I hope our present “little thing” is not just the canary in the coalmine … still living but starting to sway. 😦
 
Well, what do you mean by “punish us”?

Give us hurricanes and tsunamis and plane crashes and genocides and elementary school massacres and wars and cancers and starvation that tortures and kills innocent people and makes one child die every five minutes??

We already have that, and more.
And it happens even when we are “good” and “moral”.

I also don’t think that we are declining in morality.
Each generation has different issues we address and something things get better and other things get worse, but it all averages out the same as always.

In fact, I think we are a bit better than in the past. I agree with Fairwinds and all that he/she says.

I disagree on several points.We are in fact declining in morality.Since you mentioned abortion ,I will touch on that issue,although this is just one of many immoral behaviors we face as a society.The assumption that abortion is no more frequent and is more safe than in the past is a fallacy.By the very nature of abortion being legal,that alone will lead more women,who in the past,may have chosen another path,to choose abortion. As far as it being safer,that has been shown not to be the case in many,many cases.Gosnell,Carthart,come to mind.Not only are babies being ripped from their mothers’ wombs at later gestational age,many woman are dying as well. My hope is that,through theses heinous stories being exposed,even the most ardent supportor of abortion,will have a conversion of heart.

As for the two examples many bring up here:

Women have been having abortions for thousands of years whether it was legal or not…using coat hangers or knives or poison, and they often died doing it. The main difference now is it’s done more safely and fewer women die.

We’ve had homosexual unions for centuries…the only difference now is it’s being done in a legal, structured, family way that is more up front and honest rather than being hidden.

Some–many–might look at the two issues above as showing improvement.

.
 
let’s try this again. I’ll help:

18xx
19xx
20xx

something like that.
It’s like asking for a date when slavery became reprehensible. Or when the Nazi behavior became intolerable.

You see in a population > 1, not all people are in lock step on topic, but saying that doesn’t deny trends are underway.

I thought such matters were self evident to all. I guess we have some not in the boat with such concepts.
 
Jesus talked about self-esteem.
The bible contains dozens and dozens of phrases about self-esteem.
Are the gospel writers and psalm writers and other book writers…psychobableists?

.
Please provide the “dozens and dozens” of such direct references.
 
Well, what do you mean by “punish us”?

Give us hurricanes and tsunamis and plane crashes and genocides and elementary school massacres and wars and cancers and starvation that tortures and kills innocent people and makes one child die every five minutes??

We already have that, and more.
And it happens even when we are “good” and “moral”.

I also don’t think that we are declining in morality.
Each generation has different issues we address and something things get better and other things get worse, but it all averages out the same as always.

Women have been having abortions for thousands of years whether it was legal or not…using coat hangers or knives or poison, and they often died doing it. The main

difference now is it’s done more safely and fewer women

.
I beg to differ.We have devolved morally to the extent that life holds little to no value
for many,especially life in the womb.You mention abortion being safer than in the past.think Gosnell and Carthart.They were ripping babies from their mothers’ womb,when they were over 33 weeks in many cases.Additionally,many women lost their lives as well.Lastly,these dangerous abortions aren’t an exception,much of this has gone on in PP clinic as well:(
 
Jesus talked about self-esteem.
The bible contains dozens and dozens of phrases about self-esteem.
Are the gospel writers and psalm writers and other book writers…psychobableists?

.
Our esteem doesn’t come from our self…we are nothing but jars of clay…that IS in the Bible unlike your fantasy ideas.

Any esteem we have comes by being adopted children of a loving Father God. Divine filiation. We only have divine esteem…or various levels of pride.

This isn’t what the psychobabbleists spew into the heads of so many people.
 
Hey everyone. I am really enjoying this thread but it seems like its starting to go off topic. So can we please keep this thread on topic? I think perhaps a separate thread for the self esteem issue would be best.
 
It’s like asking for a date when slavery became reprehensible. Or when the Nazi behavior became intolerable.

You see in a population > 1, not all people are in lock step on topic, but saying that doesn’t deny trends are underway.

I thought such matters were self evident to all. I guess we have some not in the boat with such concepts.
give me a 50 year range.

you can’t make sloppy assertions without someone calling you on it.
 
give me a 50 year range.

you can’t make sloppy assertions without someone calling you on it.
1943, with Maslow’s classic article on motivations, introducing the nonsense about self actualization.

The error was, of course, laid much earlier with Descartes’ famous but misunderstood by most “cogito ergo sum”…the beginning of relativism…where we…the self…become the criterion…we become the source of truth. More nonsense.
 
1943, with Maslow’s classic article on motivations, introducing the nonsense about self actualization.

The error was, of course, laid much earlier with Descartes’ famous but misunderstood by most “cogito ergo sum”…the beginning of relativism…where we…the self…become the criterion…we become the source of truth. More nonsense.
1943 … as what? a year for psychobabble or a watershed year in declining morality (the thread topic)? the high water mark of morality?
 
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