Could Isaiah 9:6-7 be about Jesus?

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[BIBLEDRB]Isaiah 9:6-7[/BIBLEDRB]

Even though it was in the Old Testament, thousands of years before Christ ever walked the Earth, the verse seems to refer to a messiah of sorts.
 
VanSensei said:
[BIBLEDRB]Isaiah 9:6-7[/BIBLEDRB]

Even though it was in the Old Testament, thousands of years before Christ ever walked the Earth, the verse seems to refer to a messiah of sorts.
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Scripture has both a human and divine nature. It is human in the sense that the author wrote the words for a particular time and culture. It is Divine in the sense that the words have value for everyone of all generations.

The author of Isaiah 9:6 (9:5 in Jewish Scriptures) wrote a passage referring to a king. Bear in mind, that at the time of the writing, the kingdom was divided and in the process of being invaded and taken into bondage. So, to hear about a king with the qualities that are listed would be good news to the Jewish audience. According to Jewish Scriptures, the words in the first verse is “A child has been born”. Right away, that would seem to eliminate the possibility that this passage could be a prophecy about anyone since the context is in the past.

Still one cannot emphasize enough the role of the Holy Spirit in inspiring these words. Could not our Tri-une God have inspired these words as a pretense to the birth of the Messiah. I say, Why not!
 
Yes, indeed! What other child–or person for that matter–can be called “God”?
 
bsroufek said:
Yes, indeed! What other child–or person for that matter–can be called “God”?
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Yes, Brian, but look at the words found in the Jewish Scripture, (Is 9:5,6) They are quite different from those found in the KJV or the NIV or NABRE, etc. (Is 9:6,7)

5 For a child has been born to us, a son has been given us. And authority has settled on his shoulders. He has been named “The Mighty God is planning grace; The Eternal Father, a peaceable ruler”—

6 In token of abundant authority And of peace without limit Upon David’s Throne and kingdom, That it may be firmly established In justice and equity Now and evermore. The zeal of the LORD of Hosts Shall bring this to pass

Jews understand this passage to be about Hezekiah, son of Ahaz, who was an evil ruler he even worshipped Baal. Isaiah was announcing the birth of Ahaz’ son, Hezekiah. I do think it would be useful to get a translation of the dead sea scrolls since most of Isaiah was preserved. That would, at least give us a glimpse of the text of this passage at the time of Jesus.

Even at that, who can say what God wanted to share with us. Perhaps, he used Ahaz as a backdrop to announce the Good News of his coming!
 
I would be interested to see if/what any of the Church fathers wrote on this,
 
cargau said:
Yes, Brian, but look at the words found in the Jewish Scripture, (Is 9:5,6) They are quite different from those found in the KJV or the NIV or NABRE, etc. (Is 9:6,7)

5 For a child has been born to us, a son has been given us. And authority has settled on his shoulders. He has been named “The Mighty God is planning grace; The Eternal Father, a peaceable ruler”—

6 In token of abundant authority And of peace without limit Upon David’s Throne and kingdom, That it may be firmly established In justice and equity Now and evermore. The zeal of the LORD of Hosts Shall bring this to pass

Jews understand this passage to be about Hezekiah, son of Ahaz, who was an evil ruler he even worshipped Baal. Isaiah was announcing the birth of Ahaz’ son, Hezekiah. I do think it would be useful to get a translation of the dead sea scrolls since most of Isaiah was preserved. That would, at least give us a glimpse of the text of this passage at the time of Jesus.

Even at that, who can say what God wanted to share with us. Perhaps, he used Ahaz as a backdrop to announce the Good News of his coming!
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Actually this is just a matter of translating the Hebrew phrase/s pele’ yō‘ēṣ, ’ēl gibōr, ’ăḇî‘aḏ, śar-šālōm (One possible way of translating this is “wonder-counselor/one who counsels wonders, mighty God/God (is) mighty, father forever/everlasting father, ruler of peace.”) The translation you give chooses to interpret these phrases as a full sentence. Traditional Christian translations usually takes interprets the phrase as different epithets, which leads to the well-known “Wonderful, Counselor, Mighty God, Everlasting Father, Prince of Peace.”

As for whether this passage could be about Jesus, this is how the Septuagint translates this passage: “For a child is born to us, and a son is given to us, whose government is upon his shoulder: **and his name is called the Messenger **(angelos - where we get the word ‘angel’ from) of great counsel: for I will bring peace upon the princes, and health to him.” And guess what? The title “Angel of Great Counsel” is traditionally applied to Jesus!




Christ as the Angel of Great Counsel. Note the cruciform halo.
 
patrick457 said:
Actually this is just a matter of translating the Hebrew phrase/s pele’ yō‘ēṣ, ’ēl gibōr, ’ăḇî‘aḏ, śar-šālōm (One possible way of translating this is “wonder-counselor/one who counsels wonders, mighty God/God (is) mighty, father forever/everlasting father, ruler of peace.”) The translation you give chooses to interpret these phrases as a full sentence. Traditional Christian translations usually takes interprets the phrase as different epithets, which leads to the well-known “Wonderful, Counselor, Mighty God, Everlasting Father, Prince of Peace.”

As for whether this passage could be about Jesus, this is how the Septuagint translates this passage: “For a child is born to us, and a son is given to us, whose government is upon his shoulder: **and his name is called the Messenger **(angelos - where we get the word ‘angel’ from) of great counsel: for I will bring peace upon the princes, and health to him.” And guess what? The title “Angel of Great Counsel” is traditionally applied to Jesus!
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Sorry, I read your post wrong. Just the idea that this passage could not be attributed to Jesus is turning my world upside down. What’s the exact translation supposed to say? Does it have Mighty God in it?
 
dronald said:
Sorry, I read your post wrong. Just the idea that this passage could not be attributed to Jesus is turning my world upside down. What’s the exact translation supposed to say? Does it have Mighty God in it?
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It definately is atteributed to Christ. The 1609 Douay-Rheims Bible has footnotes that attributed that whole section to Christ. The Old Testament writers that wrote Messianic portions, the authors may have actually meant to be talking about someone else, but the Holy Spirit has interpreted it in a deeper way. There are plenty of times where the New Testament authors quoted the Old Testament, and the OT author may have had David, Solomon, Zerubabel, etc, in mind but the Holy Spirit has revealed that Christ is the ultimate fulfillment.
 
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