Could Jesus have committed evil by accident?

[N0X3x]

This thread has two components.

First, It is generally accepted that Jesus was perfect and committed no sins, but there are (or at least, there seem to be) differences between sins and mistakes. For example, if I cheat on a test, I’ve sinned, but if I stub my toe, I’ve merely made a mistake. I would think that, although Jesus never sinned, as a true man he made mistakes as commonly as the rest of us, though if you disagree, I’d like to hear why.

The main focus of this thread though, is whether or not Jesus could have done evil by accident. Assuming that Jesus could make mistakes, could he also have made mistakes that harmed other people, as long as he was not sinning? For example, could Jesus have stolen things or lied as a very young child before learning that these things offended other people and his father?

 

[Linusthe2nd]

This thread has two components.

First, It is generally accepted that Jesus was perfect and committed no sins, but there are (or at least, there seem to be) differences between sins and mistakes. For example, if I cheat on a test, I’ve sinned, but if I stub my toe, I’ve merely made a mistake. I would think that, although Jesus never sinned, as a true man he made mistakes as commonly as the rest of us, though if you disagree, I’d like to hear why.

The main focus of this thread though, is whether or not Jesus could have done evil by accident. Assuming that Jesus could make mistakes, could he also have made mistakes that harmed other people, as long as he was not sinning? For example, could Jesus have stolen things or lied as a very young child before learning that these things offended other people and his father?

I think not. It would be incapatible with His Divinity that He might have caused scandal or harm to another through invincible ignorance.

Linus2nd

 

[JRKH]

Interesting question.

One thing in the Gospels that always kind of bothered me was this…From Mark 11
12 On the next day, when they had left Bethany, He became hungry. 13Seeing at a distance a fig tree in leaf, He went to see if perhaps He would find anything on it; and when He came to it, He found nothing but leaves, for it was not the season for figs. 14He said to it, “May no one ever eat fruit from you again!” And His disciples were listening. 15Then they came to Jerusalem…

19When evening came, they would go out of the city. 20As they were passing by in the morning, they saw the fig tree withered from the roots up. 21Being reminded, Peter said to Him, “Rabbi, look, the fig tree which You cursed has withered.”…
Why should Jesus choose to curse (and thus destroy) the tree which was only acting in accord with the way He (as God) designed it?

Peace
James

 

[Linusthe2nd]

Interesting question.

One thing in the Gospels that always kind of bothered me was this…From Mark 11
12 On the next day, when they had left Bethany, He became hungry. 13Seeing at a distance a fig tree in leaf, He went to see if perhaps He would find anything on it; and when He came to it, He found nothing but leaves, for it was not the season for figs. 14He said to it, “May no one ever eat fruit from you again!” And His disciples were listening. 15Then they came to Jerusalem…

19When evening came, they would go out of the city. 20As they were passing by in the morning, they saw the fig tree withered from the roots up. 21Being reminded, Peter said to Him, “Rabbi, look, the fig tree which You cursed has withered.”…
Why should Jesus choose to curse (and thus destroy) the tree which was only acting in accord with the way He (as God) designed it?

Peace
James

He wanted to illustrate what would happen to us if we were unproductive servants.

Linus2nd

 

[4love2God]

NOX3x asks an intriguing question : "The main focus of this thread though, is whether or not Jesus could have done evil by accident.
Assuming that Jesus could make mistakes, could He also have made mistakes that harmed other people, as long as He was not sinning?"

To answer this question, we must know what EVIL is, in your definition.

I will assume that Evil is doing something for a Bad reason.
In that instance, Jesus probably (even as a child) did NOT cause Evil.

Now, assume that Evil is making a mistake that somehow harmed another Human Being.
A scenario : Jesus walked up to 2 people who had been attacked and robbed, and who are both bleeding.
Jesus approaches the first man, and begins tending to his wounds.
Meanwhile, the other man unexpected dies.

In this case, Jesus made a mistake. He should have began treating the other man.
But, Jesus did not know the other man would die without being treated first.

I am sure that this kind of error (mistake) could have happened.
But, I doubt God would have put His only begotten Son through a situation like that.

 

[JRKH]

He wanted to illustrate what would happen to us if we were unproductive servants.

Linus2nd

Jesus DID teach such, but not in this place.

Matthew and Mark both tell version of this incident. In each case the lesson Jesus teaches is about having faith and not doubting…nothing at all about being unproductive servants.

Even if it were about being productive, there is nothing wrong in the fig tree not having fruit on it if it is not the season for fruit.

Matthew’s version of the story does not mention season - and in this version one might assume that figs should have been in season and the curse might be seen as justified as a lesson in not bearing fruit. But Mark specifies that it was not the season…so why should Jesus curse the fig tree for doing precisely what the fig tree should be doing at that time of the season.

But more troubling is this…Since Jesus uses this incident as a lesson in faith and how anything asked for in true faith will be granted - - then why were their no figs? Jesus approached the tree in perfect faith - never doubting that there would be fruit.
So why was there no fruit???

Peace
James

 

[Linusthe2nd]

Jesus DID teach such, but not in this place.

Matthew and Mark both tell version of this incident. In each case the lesson Jesus teaches is about having faith and not doubting…nothing at all about being unproductive servants.

{Even if it were about being productive, there is nothing wrong in the fig tree not having fruit on it if it is not the season for fruit.

He meant it to be an example to us, that we should be fruitful. He wasn’t concerned about the tree’s fruit. Besides, we are told it was not the season for the tree to have fruit. So perhaps Christ meant we should be fruitful at all times - whether it was convenient for us or not, whether we were in the mood or not.

Matthew’s version of the story does not mention season - and in this version one might assume that figs should have been in season and the curse might be seen as justified as a lesson in not bearing fruit. But Mark specifies that it was not the season…so why should Jesus curse the fig tree for doing precisely what the fig tree should be doing at that time of the season.

As a warning to us. He wants us to be fruitful " in season and out, " as I mentioned above.

But more troubling is this…Since Jesus uses this incident as a lesson in faith and how anything asked for in true faith will be granted - - then why were their no figs? Jesus approached the tree in perfect faith - never doubting that there would be fruit.
So why was there no fruit???

No, he had no intention of obtaining fruit, he was looking for a concrete example to illustrate that we should be fruitful always. But there may be other valid interpretations.

Linus2nd

 

[JRKH]

He meant it to be an example to us, that we should be fruitful. He wasn’t concerned about the tree’s fruit. Besides, we are told it was not the season for the tree to have fruit. So perhaps Christ meant we should be fruitful at all times - whether it was convenient for us or not, whether we were in the mood or not.

As a warning to us. He wants us to be fruitful " in season and out, " as I mentioned above.

No, he had no intention of obtaining fruit, he was looking for a concrete example to illustrate that we should be fruitful always. But there may be other valid interpretations.

Linus2nd

This is all fine and good and certainly a sound lesson.
But…
Could you show me in the text of the passage (either in Mt or Mark) where Jesus taught this?

Peace
James

 

[Charlemagne_III]

The main focus of this thread though, is whether or not Jesus could have done evil by accident. Assuming that Jesus could make mistakes, could he also have made mistakes that harmed other people, as long as he was not sinning? For example, could Jesus have stolen things or lied as a very young child before learning that these things offended other people and his father?

Do you even know the difference between a mistake and a sin?

 

[Linusthe2nd]

This is all fine and good and certainly a sound lesson.
But…
Could you show me in the text of the passage (either in Mt or Mark) where Jesus taught this?

Peace
James

No, it just seems a logical interpretation that others have made.

Linus2nd

 

[JRKH]

No, it just seems a logical interpretation that others have made.

Linus2nd

Agreed…But it goes beyond the text to do so…and this is my problem with it.
I don’t really see a need to go beyond the text.
What did the evangelist want to convey here? What is the lesson? It seems to me that the evangelist recorded the lesson.
The lesson here is about prayer, not being fruitful. Being fruitful is taught elsewhere.
Here I see two lessons.

1. Pray with faith and confidence.
2. Be careful what you ask for.

Of course, the subject of this thread is could Jesus do something “evil”…“by accident”.
This passage seemed a good one to consider in this light since there are various questions that can be asked in connection with it.

Why did Jesus curse the tree for not having fruit out of season?
Why did the tree not have fruit (out of season) if Jesus had faith that it would?
did Jesus intend to kill this tree for not having fruit out of season?

It’s not as though my faith depends on the answers…but I do find it interesting…

Peace
James

 

[N0X3x]

I think not. It would be incapatible with His Divinity that He might have caused scandal or harm to another through invincible ignorance.

Linus2nd

pretty straightforward answer. That’s pretty much the way I’m leaning myself.

Follow-up question: Could Mary, not being divine, have done evil through invincible ignorance?

I’d guess that she could.

 

[N0X3x]

Do you even know the difference between a mistake and a sin?

I think so… I’m not really sure what you mean by this. Do you understand the difference? If a person commits an action that they do not know is evil, they have committed no sin.

 

[4love2God]

NOX3x makes a claim :** “If a person commits an action that they do not know is evil, they have committed no sin.”**

I think that is a little too restricting on the definition of a Sin.
Jesus said : If you Lust after someone, it’s the same as if you just had sex with her (or him) : a BIG Sin
And, He analogized other situations likewise.

So, does the average person think that it is Evil to spend a few seconds ogling a “fine” body as it walks by?
Does this person know that he has just Fornicated? and thus has Sinned?
Well, some people are actually aware of that Fact.
The rest of us men and women just don’t see it that way.

If a person knows that some panhandlers are drug-addicts, and tells every panhandler to back off, he may Truly believe that is doing a Good Thing.
But, wrongfully mis-Judging most of those panhandlers seems like a Sin to me.

So, since a lot of Sinning is caused by emotions … Jealousy, Envy, Spite, and Hatred . . . many people will “miss” that connection with being Evil.
A good argument could be made that : It’s just stuff swirling around in my Mind. I can’t actually control my mind completely.
I guess that is why we are all Sinners … our pesky minds spend too much time preparing us to Sin.

 

[tonyrey]

This thread is based on confusion between natural evil and moral evil. Life is so complex that misfortunes are inevitable in spite of all the love and good will in the world. The words of Jesus have often been misinterpreted by well-meaning Christians who have committed or permitted crimes in His name. Even the precept to turn the other cheek and the prayer to forgive us as we forgive those who trespass against us have frequently resulted in further injustice. When Jesus drove the traders and money changers out of the Temple He demonstrated that His teaching should not be followed blindly.

 

[david_patrick]

I think that i present a flow of logic in this post-but do not use the word ‘evil’…just to remind-it is “…to free us from evil…” in best context…" this means that i would be suspect on any faith that is led by evil…’ and threads have actually addressed the same…

To add, there is a curiosity in the hypothetical underlying of the OP…
Perhaps, the force of it should be to learn to pray best, if only to combine the greatest irony in the greatest ‘man’ who ever lived, to mix human and divine/ then the gained gift of prayer, could be either, neither, both, or percents of: to pray best means to love best…or take another choice, “If gold rusts, what then can iron do?” ― Geoffrey Chaucer …
There is a strange but curious modern cult leader, on youtube, a Siberian ‘jesus.’ (little j-there); who makes claims……

youtube.com/watch?v=W2Cv5hZfOmk

He is filmed walking down a path; followers gather; a seemingly impartial reporter interviews this cult leader of whom looks and dresses as a Russian icon…He seems holy enough/ the documentary interviews many followers, in the cult/ who seem happy almost Amish like…I would get the impression that he cares and interacts with nature (although-odd –he seems to live high on a hill-isolated from others-you think it would get lonely at the top)
Without argument , as a cult being the example-considering the human self proclaimed ‘jesus’ can only speak to answer in vague terms of the “Divine”…the same leader, of course, must add to the gospel with a third book/
(I would be suspect of persons/ when my gift is of prayer, used to full affect-to filter words)
I make this post to review the qualities of prayer-that the words of the real Jesus…must be interpreted to make prayer best… firstly, just the act of only ‘reading’ is quite different , secondly, from spiritual reading with prayer…without the call to prayer the first is not a good path; because then you risk sharing what you ‘think” is discovered/ No-rather, holiness is a humble path…not act, nor mask, not false drama to produce…

The Rime of the Ancient Mariner/From Samuel Taylor Coleridge’s famous poem:
“He prayeth well, who loveth well
Both man and bird and beast.
He prayeth best, who loveth best
All things both great and small;
For the dear God who loveth us,
He made and loveth all.”