Could Jesus have had actual brothers and sisters?

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Why are there none who will come and respond to what the Reformer’s taught regarding the perpetual virginity of Mary?

What is it that you do not want to face about their understanding of the scriptures and the Christian faith?

If it is not fear of their teachings; is it that you clearly feel that you are more intelligent regarding biblical exegesis, Christian “Truth”, more learned, more sophisticated? What is it about the teachings of Calvin, Luther and Zwingli about the Blessed Mother of God that you don’t want to face?
 
Why are there none who will come and respond to what the Reformer’s taught regarding the perpetual virginity of Mary?
Simple: We do not go ahead and rely on what people say, but on what the Word of God in the Bible teaches us.
 
Why are you so angry with the church Christ founded? - you must have been very hurt by someone …
I am not angry with the Church Christ founded. I just disagree with the statement that this Church is synonymous with the Catholic Church.
You are very correct about Truth but your inteprettion of scripture does not equal Truth …
I don’t interpret… I read. God’s Word is truth.
Truth is not a feeling. Truth is not an idea. The truth is found in the Bible.
Why does modern protestantism feel the need to change its understanding regarding Mary?
There is no change in understanding regarding Mary. There is just a truthful look at what scripture tells us about her and following God’s command. I will not bow down to anything or anybody, but God. I will not show any favoritism to a pope or anyone who has lived before me disregarding their life or faith. I will accept that some people have or had a strong faith and a deep relationship with the Lord, but I also know that they are or were as fallible as I am. I will only yield to God and strive to be more like Jesus Christ.
Can you tell me what Calvin wrote regarding the Perpetual Virginity of Mary and why that was important in Salvation history?
No, I can’t. Why? If it is not scripturally based it is wrong and then it does not matter who wrote it. Neither popes nor reformers can change that with their statements of beliefs.
What about Luther and Zwingli … What did they beleive?
Why the change and how does this change increase your faith?
Change? God is a jealous God and I will focus on Him alone and I will bow down and worship Him alone and no other. (Oh did you know that Zwingli was personally responsible for the execution of Anabaptists like Felix Manz?)
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GOD:
6 I am the LORD thy God, which brought thee out of the land of Egypt, from the house of bondage.
7 Thou shalt have none other gods before me.
8 Thou shalt not make thee any graven image, or any likeness of any thing that is in heaven above, or that is in the earth beneath, or that is in the waters beneath the earth:
9 Thou shalt not bow down thyself unto them, nor serve them: for I the LORD thy God am a jealous God, visiting the iniquity of the fathers upon the children unto the third and fourth generation of them that hate me,
10 And shewing mercy unto thousands of them that love me and keep my commandments.
Deuteronomy 5:6-10
 
I don’t interpret… I read. God’s Word is truth.
Truth is not a feeling. Truth is not an idea. The truth is found in the Bible.
Well I too read scriptures - yet what I find revealed there differs from what you find written there. Truth cannot mean one thing for you and your local Baptist Church, one Truth for me and another Truth for the Church of Christ down the street…

Also your “I do not interpret … I read” is not honest … you do read into the passages your personal 'beliefs" that Janet is exactly “interpretation” … look back at you owm posts … your interpretations are clearly indicated

And Yes, Calvin and the others reformers read the same scriptures and taught that Mary was “ever Virgin:” …I would have to say that they were equally as astute at reading the scriptures as you or I … as were the Christians that populated the 15 centuries before the reformation …

Do you think that these references to the ‘supposed siblings’ of Jesus was unknown and undiscussed either theologically or scriptureally before the 1800’s … You have no curiosity to read the discussions of these earlier Christians?

What about the Trinity and the Dual Nature of Jesus … neither concpet clearly found in scripture … how do you accept those theological dogmas?

And exactly where did you find this list of Infallable New Testament Scriptures that you read and accepted? By what authority was it written doen for you?
 
I guess in theory he could have and it clearly doesn’t say that he didn’t. However we believe as Catholics he didn’t with good reason. At least from what I know, I have read that it is believed that “brothers and sisters” used in the language at that time didn’t necessarily always refer to direct blood relatives like we refer to in families today but maybe 2nd cousins or related family.

I also read/heard that Joseph may have had children from another marriage prior to his marriage to Mary perhaps his prior wife died in child birth…who knows it doesn’t say. I think it is clear at least from what scholars had said that Joseph was significantly older than Mary and it would make sense if he had children from a previous marriage. That would then be cousins of Jesus although they probably didn’t have a word for “cousin” and just used brothers and sisters.

I don’t have any support of this other than what I have heard but that is how I understand it.
 
To the Lutheran,
The Catholic Church follows the example of the Early Church Fathers, and the rendering and interpretations they left are most identical to both the Catholic and Orthodox Churches.

Scripture has mentioned the “brethern” of the Lord, but has also mentioned who their parents were. Simon, James, and Jude were sons of Mary Cleopas; while, the other James and John were sons of Zebedee. Another way to account for the “brethern” of the Lord is the Orthodox rendering as “step brothers.” They assert the belief that St. Joseph was a widower and had had children with his previous wife, as such, his children would be considered as “brethern” of Our Lord.

What must be understood is that the word “brethern” is used to describe close relatives, such as aunts and uncle or cousins or step brothers and sisters. Brethern can also designate a national or ethnic relation, so you cannot take the literal meaning of brethern fully.

This is a matter of Doctrine as it attacks the Virginity of Our Blessed Mother, Mary. While protestants dissent, the sanctity of Mary is direct proof of Jesus power over sin, and His ability to make us transcedent to sexuality. Remember that in heaven there will be no giving and taking in marriage and Our Lady is his first fruit. She was “saved” by means of preservation from sin on His merrit, and as she was fully endowed with grace (at one point she held Him within her). This is a matter of faith as well, as it directly links us to the grace of Christ and is evidence of what He does for us, that is, He redeems, preserves, sanctifies, and exalts us through His grace and mercy. Blessed be God, Blessed be Jesus, Blessed be the Holy Spirit, Blessed be the great Theotokos, Blessed be God in his angels and saints!
👍

“Now to him who is able to keep you from falling and to present you without blemish before the presence of his glory with rejoicing, to the only God, our Savior through Jesus Christ our Lord, be glory, majesty, dominion, and authority, before all time and now and for ever”. [Jude 24-25]
 
“Scripture has mentioned the “brethern” of the Lord, but has also mentioned who their parents were. Simon, James, and Jude were sons of Mary Cleopas; while, the other James and John were sons of Zebedee.”

These three “Brethren”, as well as being His first cousins, were also His Apostles, of the Twelve: Simon, James (who later became known as Saint James the Less and James the Just), and Jude. Also the fourth brother, Joseph or Joses, who came to be known as Saint Joseph of Barsabas. These four were the sons of Saint Mary of Cleophas, whose husband was Saint Cleophas, aka Alphaeus, aka Clopas. Saint Cleophas was one of the brothers of Saint Joseph, our Lady’s husband, so these four brothers were Jesus’s first cousins by marriage. The fifth sibling, from this marriage, Saint Mary Salome, was married to Zebedee, and there are numerous passages throughout the Bible documenting their sons, second cousins of Our Lord, who were also His Apostles, of the Twelve: Saint John, the Beloved Disciple, aka Saint John the Evangelist, aka The Gospel of John, and Saint James the Greater. These two, in particular, were among Jesus’s favorites, closer in age to him, and were present with Him for many miracles and at significant times in His Ministry, along with Saint Peter, who was originally a fishing partner of these two brothers, sons of Zebedee and Mary Salome. You must read through the thread, “Jesus Had Siblings”, for many of these events and relationships, where we tie it all back for you. Really fascinating reading.

For those of you who claim to read the Scriptures, be sure to read ALL of them, not just certain passages that you try to pervert to new meanings. For in many, many places in Scriptures, the identities of “The Brethren” are revealed by inspired writers in the New Testament, and we go to those in great detail in the thread “Jesus Had Siblings?”, links given earlier on this same thread. Virtually eliminating any speculation or postulating about who ALL of these first and second cousins of Jesus were descended from. And eliminating any stories about their being sons of Joseph from a previous marriage, as the four “Brethren” (truly brothers to each other) were documented in fact to be his nephews, and include the two sons of his niece (James and John), hence great nephews, as related to you in the above paragraph. Not only Scriptures, but other historical documents and writers of the times as well, for those of you who try to make the Bible into fairytale stories who could have been imagined by just anyone.

In the thread are many links to the Church’s teaching on the Perpetual Virginity of Mary over the centuries, and the positions of Doctors of the Church and others relating to the virginity of Joseph, as well; though only the Perpetual Virginity of Mary is Church Dogma.

Happy reading! 😉
 
To the Lutheran,
The Catholic Church follows the example of the Early Church Fathers, and the rendering and interpretations they left are most identical to both the Catholic and Orthodox Churches.

Scripture has mentioned the “brethern” of the Lord, but has also mentioned who their parents were. Simon, James, and Jude were sons of Mary Cleopas; while, the other James and John were sons of Zebedee.

What is your text for Mary Cleopas?

If I say I did not go to school until 8:00 would you assume then I never went to school? “he know her not until after she gave birth.”
 
To the Lutheran,
The Catholic Church follows the example of the Early Church Fathers, and the rendering and interpretations they left are most identical to both the Catholic and Orthodox Churches.

Scripture has mentioned the “brethern” of the Lord, but has also mentioned who their parents were. Simon, James, and Jude were sons of Mary Cleopas; while, the other James and John were sons of Zebedee.
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ephes:
What is your text for Mary Cleopas?
he may have used the following
http://www.catholic.com/library/Brethren_of_the_Lord.asp
http://www.catholic.com/library/Bad_Aramaic_Made_Easy.asp
e:
If I say I did not go to school until 8:00 would you assume then I never went to school? “he know her not until after she gave birth.”
keeping this example within the scriptural context, there is no gurantee that using *until *… means anything absolutely changed. Look at the examples given in the link (post #42) provided below. By using *until *doesn’t automatically change Mary’s and Joseph’s status between them after Jesus was born. Mary was a virgin before Jesus was born, and there is no evidence in scripture that changed after Jesus was born by merely adding the word until.

Here are examples where until is used in scripture and nothing changed. Therefore, When you have exceptions to the meaning of until, you can’t absolutize the understanding of until. in only one way.

http://forums.catholic-questions.org/showpost.php?p=5507219&postcount=42

Also

http://www.ccel.org/ccel/schaff/npnf206.vi.v.html Jerome’s response to Helvidius. As an aside, all commentary and footnotes are from schaffe who is a Protestant.

http://www.totustuus.com/virgin.htm

http://www.catholic.com/thisrock/2000/0007sbs.asp

http://www.catholic.com/library/Mary_Ever_Virgin.asp

http://www.newadvent.org/fathers/3007.htm

http://www.cuf.org/faithfacts/details_view.asp?ffID=102
 
“Scripture has mentioned the “brethern” of the Lord, but has also mentioned who their parents were. Simon, James, and Jude were sons of Mary Cleopas; while, the other James and John were sons of Zebedee.”
Maybe you could enlighten us a little… where does it say that the brethren of Jesus Christ mentioned in Scripture were sons of some other Mary?

Matthew 1:24-25 said:
Then Joseph being raised from sleep did as the angel of the Lord had bidden him, and took unto him his wife: And knew her not till she had brought forth her firstborn son: and he called his name JESUS.

Matthew 12:46-47 said:
While he yet talked to the people, behold, his mother and his brethren stood without, desiring to speak with him. Then one said unto him, Behold, thy mother and thy brethren stand without, desiring to speak with thee.

Matthew 13:55 said:
Is not this the carpenter’s son? is not his mother called Mary? and his brethren, James, and Joses, and Simon, and Judas?

Mark 6:2-3 said:
And when the sabbath day was come, he began to teach in the synagogue: and many hearing him were astonished, saying, From whence hath this man these things? and what wisdom is this which is given unto him, that even such mighty works are wrought by his hands? Is not this the carpenter, the son of Mary, the brother of James, and Joses, and of Juda, and Simon? and are not his sisters here with us? And they were offended at him.

John 2:12 said:
After this he went down to Capernaum, he, and his mother, and his brethren, and his disciples: and they continued there not many days.

Acts 1:14 said:
These all continued with one accord in prayer and supplication, with the women, and Mary the mother of Jesus, and with his brethren.

1 Cor. 9:4-5 said:
Have we not power to eat and to drink? Have we not power to lead about a sister, a wife, as well as other apostles, and as the brethren of the Lord, and Cephas?

Gal. 1:19 said:
But other of the apostles saw I none, save James the Lord’s brother.
 
Hello Janet1983:

As much as I’d like to take those quotes one by one, I do not have the time. We covered every one of them in the thread, “Jesus Had Siblings?” on this forum. It goes into extensive details on your questions, as I mentioned in Post 66 on this thread, and as someone else also mentioned in Post 65, which quotation you attributed to me.

I wish I had time to repost it all, but I don’t. I have taken a new full-time job plus other obligations, but didn’t want you to be without answers. Please find them there! We go into many details, as I write on Post 66 and earlier in this thread, as to all of the relationships of the “brethren”, four of whom are brothers to each other, first cousins of Jesus by Saint Cleophas and Saint Mary of Cleophas (and three of these who were also Apostles); and two more brothers who were His second cousins (and also known as the Apostles James (the Greater) and John, the Beloved Disciple, and Gospel writer), by His other cousin, Saint Mary Salome, married to Zebedee, and who was also the sister of the four brothers. We cover in detail all of the relatives of Jesus, as well as the Apostles who were also His relatives. It is such an interesting thread, and at this posting has been read nearly 7,000 times, with almost 400 posts which explain all of their relationships for you. So, you see why I’m not going to take the time to repost it!

Someone gave the link earlier on this thread. (Thank you.)

Enjoy! 😉
 
Hello Janet1983:

As much as I’d like to take those quotes one by one, I do not have the time. We covered every one of them in the thread, “Jesus Had Siblings?” on this forum. It goes into extensive details on your questions, as I mentioned in Post 66 on this thread, and as someone else also mentioned in Post 65, which quotation you attributed to me.

I wish I had time to repost it all, but I don’t. I have taken a new full-time job plus other obligations, but didn’t want you to be without answers. Please find them there! We go into many details, as I write on Post 66 and earlier in this thread, as to all of the relationships of the “brethren”, four of whom are brothers to each other, first cousins of Jesus by Saint Cleophas and Saint Mary of Cleophas (and three of these who were also Apostles); and two more brothers who were His second cousins (and also known as the Apostles James (the Greater) and John, the Beloved Disciple, and Gospel writer), by His other cousin, Saint Mary Salome, married to Zebedee, and who was also the sister of the four brothers. We cover in detail all of the relatives of Jesus, as well as the Apostles who were also His relatives. It is such an interesting thread, and at this posting has been read nearly 7,000 times, with almost 400 posts which explain all of their relationships for you. So, you see why I’m not going to take the time to repost it!

Someone gave the link earlier on this thread. (Thank you.)

Enjoy! 😉
Well that’s quite a bit you wrote here… all I am looking for is a few Bible verses…
Should be easily given if it is that obvious… is it?
 
Not just myself, but many talented researchers, posted many, many quotes on the thread. As I said, too many to repost. Nor do I have the time, as I wrote, to search through all of them to select just “a few”. The evidence is overwhelming. Read it, and you will begin to understand! It is a very good read, and will take you days to get through, especially if you truly choose to understand it, and follow back ALL of the links.

Enjoy! 🙂
 
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