Could Julius Caesar be in heaven?

[TK421]

I don’t see how Julius was any more brutal (or, rather, allegedly brutal) than Judas Thaddeus, who would have been one of his contemporaries. The 21st century channels of diplomacy and the international safeguards in place didn’t exist even remotely in the ancient world; our standards of what is appropriate would have been hysterical to them. The righteous Jews didn’t seem to have a problem with the way the Romans conducted their affairs (on the whole):

1 Maccabees 8: 1-16:
Now Judas heard of the fame of the Romans, that they were very strong and were well-disposed toward all who made an alliance with them, that they pledged friendship to those who came to them, and that they were very strong. He had been told of their wars and of the brave deeds that they were doing among the Gauls, how they had defeated them and forced them to pay tribute, and what they had done in the land of Spain to get control of the silver and gold mines there, and how they had gained control of the whole region by their planning and patience, even though the place was far distant from them. They also subdued the kings who came against them from the ends of the earth, until they crushed them and inflicted great disaster on them; the rest paid them tribute every year. They had crushed in battle and conquered Philip, and King Perseus of the Macedonians, and the others who rose up against them. They also had defeated Antiochus the Great, king of Asia, who went to fight against them with one hundred twenty elephants and with cavalry and chariots and a very large army. He was crushed by them; they took him alive and decreed that he and those who would reign after him should pay a heavy tribute and give hostages and surrender some of their best provinces, the countries of India, Media, and Lydia. These they took from him and gave to King Eumenes. The Greeks planned to come and destroy them, but this became known to them, and they sent a general against the Greeks and attacked them. Many of them were wounded and fell, and the Romans took captive their wives and children; they plundered them, conquered the land, tore down their strongholds, and enslaved them to this day. The remaining kingdoms and islands, as many as ever opposed them, they destroyed and enslaved; but with their friends and those who rely on them they have kept friendship. They have subdued kings far and near, and as many as have heard of their fame have feared them. Those whom they wish to help and to make kings, they make kings, and those whom they wish they depose; and they have been greatly exalted. Yet for all this not one of them has put on a crown or worn purple as a mark of pride, but they have built for themselves a senate chamber, and every day three hundred twenty senators constantly deliberate concerning the people, to govern them well. They trust one man each year to rule over them and to control all their land; they all heed the one man, and there is no envy or jealousy among them.

Rome was a (relative) light to the world. It brought order, stability, peace, and prosperity. It essentially paralleled the many virtues that the Hellenistic pagans brought to the world, only it did it better than they did. I think Julius’ attempts to further those strides towards a better world were very admirable. I believe he was exemplary in obeying his conscious.

 

[Geeksftw]

Hilter and bin-laden could be in heaven for all we know

Surely not? Hitler commited the ultimate sin of denying Jesus Christ. Not to mention the attempted genocide of many of god’s people and considering himself “a god” himself.

I really hope that statement was a joke.

As for Bin Laden I highly doubt it as well. Both men are massively repulsive and got what they deserved.

As for Caesar is concerned though, he was pretty brutal. He’s one of my favorite men of history and I find the Roman Empire to be one of the most fascinating Empires in our great history but look at it this way. Every Roman Promoted slavery, whether you were rich or poor. Life in the roman empire was hard and difficult unless you were rich. If you were rich you lived a life of luxury and had pride (pride is a large sin). If you were a commoner you were a slave who weren’t even (as far as I know) allowed to go to temples or church. Yes, it was acceptable in the old and new testament to have and even keep slaves so this part would have been “acceptable” then.

Next issue, most of them also worshiped other gods including Caesar. Which is forbidden in both the old and the new testament and also forbidden in the ten commandments given by the lord himself. So that automatically is a strike against their favor. Yes, there were Christian Romans from what I’m told but they were riddiculed and thought crazy by the majority of the Roman Empire.

Next issue, as previously stated He slept with countless women while married to his wife Pompeia leading to their divorce somewhere around 60 BC. Adultery is forbidden in the new and old testament and the ten commandments as well. So there’s another strike against him and the Romans in general.

While he did many things that could be considered great and was pro help the poor and gave many generous gifts and was one of rome’s greatest emperors that doesn’t get you into heaven. You cannot get into heaven when your heart is so full of sin and you offend god so much.

We can hope he and his people are in heaven and nobody can say for sure but the lord but, I honestly doubt it. Try praying for his soul though it might get him somewhere.

 

[Pat_Payne]

:ehh:

Didn’t they speak Latin in Ancient Rome, not Greek? So wouldn’t it have been “Et tu, filie?”

Actually, Greek was a “lingua Franca” of the Empire, and most educated upper-class Romans would know Greek, even if for no other reason then to communicate with the Greek-speaking subjects of the Republic/Empire’s eastern holdings, where Greek was often the first language. It wouldn’t surprise me that possibly Pilate was speaking Greek to Jesus during His trial.

Rome had a fascination with Greece, whom they considered an elder brother culturally, and many cross-cultural ties existed… even more so after Rome conquered Greece. Caesar would have picked up his Greek at home, probably, but almost certainly polished it during his time studying with Apollonius of Rhodes, the legendary rhetoric teacher (and the man Caesar was going to see when he was waylaid by pirates)

 

[Pat_Payne]

There is no point in speculating. Only God knows where he is.

Regarding your comments that I highlighted you cannot possibly back up such a claim. You have no way of knowing if that is correct or not.

Caesar had a documented history of forgiving his enemies, including many of the men who fought in the Civil War against him (Cato the Younger, in fact explicitly committed suicide to avoid the humiliation of being forgiven by Caesar, whom he considered his political nemesis). Now was this true mercy? Or was it shrewd political machination – forgive and forget to get your enemies on your side for the post-war restoration of power, as well as keeping the executions, and therefore the potential vendettas, to a minimum?

Either way it cost him his life. A number of the conspirators at Pompey’s Theater, including Brutus himself, had been recipients of Caesar’s mercy.

 

[Honorius]

The man was a magnificent b****** (I read yer book!!! ), true, and as with a great many people, I’ve always had a sideways-glance admiration for him as well, but to call him a “good man” is a stretch.

While he was no angel, He should be judged in comparison to his contemporaries. Are you familiar with other Romans such as Marius and Sulla? A faint halo appears over his head when compared to them.

 

[glendab]

You are kidding aren’t you?

Which one? Weren’t they all bums?

Glenda

 

[GEddie]

It’s not accurate that every “commoner” of Caesarian times was a slave. While there was almost no middle class as we understand it, there certainly were poor freemen.

Also, remember that slavery was universal in pre-Christian times (and was accepted in the most self-righteous Christian nation of all until eight generations ago). The Greeks, Hebrews, Babylonians, etc, all practiced slavery, and the great classical philosophers supported it. As rightly hideous as the idea is to us now, it was seen equally necessary to those times as minimum-wage labor is to ours.

While moral principles do not change with time, moral responsibility can.

ICXC NIKA

 

[Della]

A great old film about Julius Caesar is “Caesar and Cleopatra” made in 1945 starring Claude Rains and Vivien Leigh. I’ve managed to catch it on TV now and then. In one scene, Cleopatra admits to killing an enemy of hers and Caesar’s whom Caesar had pardoned and set free:

CLEOPATRA [Vehemently] Listen to me, Caesar. If one man in all Alexandria can be found to say that I did wrong, I swear to have myself crucified on the door of the palace by my own slaves.

CAESAR. If one man in all the world can be found, now or forever, to know that you did wrong, that man will have either to conquer the world as I have, or be crucified by it.

That line was written by George Bernard Shaw (the film is adapted from his play) who claimed to be an atheist. If true of the mind of Caesar, it says a great deal about him.

Caesar may have shown mercy for sound political reasons alone, still he did do it whatever his motivation. He had probably never heard of the true God and lived his life according to the norms of his day, so he can’t be faulted for that. He brought prosperity to his people and good government for which they killed him–because the ethic of the day was to take what you wanted instead of getting it through peaceful means. I don’t know if he’s in heaven or hell, still I find his life inspiring. That many others do too must count for something.

 

[Geeksftw]

It’s not accurate that every “commoner” of Caesarian times was a slave. While there was almost no middle class as we understand it, there certainly were poor freemen.

Also, remember that slavery was universal in pre-Christian times (and was accepted in the most self-righteous Christian nation of all until eight generations ago). The Greeks, Hebrews, Babylonians, etc, all practiced slavery, and the great classical philosophers supported it. As rightly hideous as the idea is to us now, it was seen equally necessary to those times as minimum-wage labor is to ours.

While moral principles do not change with time, moral responsibility can.

ICXC NIKA

I was going by what I saw on tv and what was portrayed on the internet about the Roman Empire. If you were poor, you worked if you were rich, you didn’t have to lift a finger. I could be wrong about there being lots of free slaves as well though. I didn’t count this as a strike against he and his people because, it was accepted back then and the norm.

However, the fact remains though, he committed many sins in the eyes of god. He was a great man and was the greatest emperor the Roman Empire ever had don’t get me wrong. But you can’t get into heaven on goodness and greatness alone. That’s not what the old and new testament has taught us. He also committed adultery and had immoral sex with many women. And yeah, he and a majority of his people mocked the real god and prayed to other gods. Even in his time, those were a no-no. I personally doubt that he’s in purgatory. I think the sins that he commited were moral and required salvation which me might had gotten the chance to get, because he lived and died shortly before Christ came but he denied and riddiculed our religion from the beginning (At least to my knowledge) so imo, he didn’t get salvation.

I could be wrong, and we can hope and pray that I’m wrong but I think I’m right.

 

[Honorius]

However, the fact remains though, he committed many sins in the eyes of god. He was a great man and was the greatest emperor the Roman Empire ever had don’t get me wrong.

Sorry, but a slight correction. Caesar was not an emperor. His adopted son Augustus was the first emperor of the Roman Empire. I hate to sound like a know it all, but I can be a little OCD when it comes to these things.

 

[TK421]

If worshiping false gods was automatically mortal for a benighted pagan, this means the entire world was being born, grew up, had children, died, went to hell, children went to hell, grandchildren went to hell, great grandchildren went to hell, ad infinitum; which I suppose was actually the view that the Christian faithful held for a very long time (though keep in mind that there are more people alive from 20th century onward than there have been in all generations past, and so our forebears are already part of a relative shrinking minority) The conceived idea in antiquity was that benighted pagans went to a shallow level of Hell, and other people in more knowledgeable positions submerged to deeper depths of punishment. The idea of compounding degrees of culpability remains, though the teaching on there being no salvation outside the Church is something that has developed over time, and it is presently understood that each individual, insofar as what they were given in life, may be defended or accused at Judgement, and be granted that salvation through Her.

Identifying ways in which a particular person fell short of the glory of God is an extremely easy job. You will always succeed at it, but you have to keep in mind the many men in their lives who, among the moral swamp that they lived in, seemed to reach out their hand towards what was nobler. As for the perfection part: that is entrusted to God’s work to be performed within us.

 

[Pat_Payne]

While he was no angel, He should be judged in comparison to his contemporaries. Are you familiar with other Romans such as Marius and Sulla? A faint halo appears over his head when compared to them.

True… when looking at either wholesale slaughter (as under the Marius/Cinna regime) or a more methodical reign of terror (as with Sulla’s proscriptions), Caesar looks better. But that’s still a bit like saying he’s the most polite shark in the tank… And he did get into political bed with Pompey (who in his youth earned the name Carnifex Adulescens or “Young Butcher” due to his bloodthirstiness during the 90s-80s BC Civil War), so make of that what you will… Yes, I am a history … why do you ask?

 

[Honorius]

True… when looking at either wholesale slaughter (as under the Marius/Cinna regime) or a more methodical reign of terror (as with Sulla’s proscriptions), Caesar looks better. But that’s still a bit like saying he’s the most polite shark in the tank… And he did get into political bed with Pompey (who in his youth earned the name Carnifex Adulescens or “Young Butcher” due to his bloodthirstiness during the 90s-80s BC Civil War), so make of that what you will… Yes, I am a history … why do you ask?

I suppose we could say that of the many statesmen of the later Roman Republic, he is one of the better choices if someone had to go to heaven. Truthfully, I would like to say Dante put him in a just spot in The Inferno, but then again, human justice is a bit different than divine justice.

 

[Geeksftw]

If worshiping false gods was automatically mortal for a benighted pagan, this means the entire world was being born, grew up, had children, died, went to hell, children went to hell, grandchildren went to hell, great grandchildren went to hell, ad infinitum; which I suppose was actually the view that the Christian faithful held for a very long time (though keep in mind that there are more people alive from 20th century onward than there have been in all generations past, and so our forebears are already part of a relative shrinking minority) The conceived idea in antiquity was that benighted pagans went to ulpability remains, though the teaching on there being no salvation outside the Church is something that has developed over time, and it is presently understood that a shallow level of Hell, and other people in more knowledgeable positions submerged to deeper depths of punishment. The idea of compounding degrees of ceach individual, insofar as what they were given in life, may be defended or accused at Judgement, and be granted that salvation through Her.

Identifying ways in which a particular person fell short of the glory of God is an extremely easy job. You will always succeed at it, but you have to keep in mind the many men in their lives who, among the moral swamp that they lived in, seemed to reach out their hand towards what was nobler. As for the perfection part: that is entrusted to God’s work to be performed within us.

Well put it this way, there is scientific evidence that the human race has been around at LEAST 10,000 years although people argue the exact year Adam and Eve were created and that the dinosaurs existed. We know the earth is around 4.5 billion years old and god had plenty of stuff to create, it wasn’t done in a week. Each day described in the book of Genesis took god several million years to accomplish. But that view isn’t for this thread and I’m digressing.

The human race is at least 10,000 years old. The Old Testament from approximately 1400 B.C. to approximately 400 B.C. The ten commandments were given by god in approximately 1530 BC . Caesar was born in 100 BC and died in 44 BC.

That not only means that Caesar and the Romans were around when these were made, but that he/they had full knowledge of both, but he/they chose to ignore them anyway and go with their gods and do whatever they wanted. The majority of the Roman Empire mocked Christians that practiced Christianity. Don’t you think this would have made god angry with him/them? If he/they were oblivious to Christianity I would have said yeah he/they might have had a chance. But he/they had full knowledge of their actions and didn’t care.

The Romans were a fascinating part of history, but they didn’t make it into heaven. Just like the Japanese,Chinese,Koreans, …etc they all are great parts of human history but won’t make it to heaven. If everything we’re taught in Christianity is true and our god exists (It is and he does) all of these people have angered god and will not be joining Christians in the afterlife. They may go to their own afterlife or god may send them all to hell. I cannot answer for sure that is for the lord to decide but they will not be in a Christian heaven nor do I think they would want to be. They had their own gods and want the afterlife their gods could give them.

Sorry, but a slight correction. Caesar was not an emperor. His adopted son Augustus was the first emperor of the Roman Empire. I hate to sound like a know it all, but I can be a little OCD when it comes to these things.

I have nothing against you correcting me, I love to learn but what? I have to google that right now! I’ve lived my entire life thinking that he was one of Rome’s emperors. Like I said, I went off of what tv and video games portrayed and not Encyclopedia fact. I have to look that up on wikipedia right now!

 

[thistle]

Well put it this way, there is scientific evidence that the human race has been around at LEAST 10,000 years although people argue the exact year Adam and Eve were created and that the dinosaurs existed. We know the earth is around 4.5 billion years old and god had plenty of stuff to create, it wasn’t done in a week. Each day described in the book of Genesis took god several million years to accomplish. But that view isn’t for this thread and I’m digressing.

The human race is at least 10,000 years old. The Old Testament from approximately 1400 B.C. to approximately 400 B.C. The ten commandments were given by god in approximately 1530 BC . Caesar was born in 100 BC and died in 44 BC.

That not only means that Caesar and the Romans were around when these were made, but that he/they had full knowledge of both, but he/they chose to ignore them anyway and go with their gods and do whatever they wanted. The majority of the Roman Empire mocked Christians that practiced Christianity. Don’t you think this would have made god angry with him/them? If he/they were oblivious to Christianity I would have said yeah he/they might have had a chance. But he/they had full knowledge of their actions and didn’t care.

The Romans were a fascinating part of history, but they didn’t make it into heaven. Just like the Japanese,Chinese,Koreans, …etc they all are great parts of human history but won’t make it to heaven. If everything we’re taught in Christianity is true and our god exists (It is and he does) all of these people have angered god and will not be joining Christians in the afterlife. They may go to their own afterlife or god may send them all to hell. I cannot answer for sure that is for the lord to decide but they will not be in a Christian heaven nor do I think they would want to be. They had their own gods and want the afterlife their gods could give them.

I have nothing against you correcting me, I love to learn but what? I have to google that right now! I’ve lived my entire life thinking that he was one of Rome’s emperors. Like I said, I went off of what tv and video games portrayed and not Encyclopedia fact. I have to look that up on wikipedia right now!

Why would you say Caesar had knowledge of the 10 Commandments? Knowing when he was born is evidence of nothing (apart from being born!).

There are hundreds of millions of people alive today who have never heard of the 10 Commandments.

 

[Honorius]

Why would you say Caesar had knowledge of the 10 Commandments? Knowing when he was born is evidence of nothing (apart from being born!).

Well on that note, it would seem to me that there is at least a slight chance that he would at least be somewhat familiar with the Jewish religion. In First Maccabees and Josephus’ Jewish Antiquities there was a treaty concluded between Rome and Judas Maccabeus about 160 B.C./B.C.E. Add to that his expedition to Egypt, which if I remember correctly had a decent sized Jewish population, it seems within reason to say he may have known a little bit about Judaism.

 

[thistle]

Well on that note, it would seem to me that there is at least a slight chance that he would at least be somewhat familiar with the Jewish religion. In First Maccabees and Josephus’ Jewish Antiquities there was a treaty concluded between Rome and Judas Maccabeus about 160 B.C./B.C.E. Add to that his expedition to Egypt, which if I remember correctly had a decent sized Jewish population, it seems within reason to say he may have known a little bit about Judaism.

I’m not saying he didn’t but nobody can state it as a fact.

 

[QNDNNDQDCE]

Didn’t they speak Latin in Ancient Rome, not Greek? So wouldn’t it have been “Et tu, filie?”

The line “Et tu, Brute?” known in the popular culture I believe originates in the Shakespeare play. The source for the Greek phrase is Suetonius’ De Vita Caesarum.

Atque ita tribus et viginti plagis confossus est uno modo ad primum ictum gemitu sine voce edito, etsi tradiderunt quidam Marco Bruto irruenti dixisse: καὶ σὺ τέκνον. (I, 82, 2)

And the vocative of filius is fili

 

[Geeksftw]

I’m sorry if I stated my opinions as 100% fact and came across as such. I didn’t mean it that way. What I was saying was that I THOUGHT he did because many google searches said that he and his people mocked the Christianity that existed within their own people because well… they believed in Ceres,Jupiter,Venus,Mars,Mercury …etc. I know it wasn’t until several hundred years later that the Roman Empire contributed to parts of the new testament and this definitely went on within it. But it’s possible that Christianity existed in the roman empire since the beginning and the mass majority of them didn’t believe their words and thought of them well… crazy.

If this were true and the case it’s also possible that they heard parts of the old testament and heard the ten commandments since both existed during their times and throughout the history of the Roman Empire. If these events are actually true, I would think that god would be very angry with them.

If we today mocked Christianity and started worshiping other gods (even though there really isn’t many different gods to choose from these days) and did all of the things Caesar may have did do you think we would be allowed into heaven? Or would even want to be in heaven? Or that the Lord would forgive us for this if we didn’t turn to Jesus (Even though Jesus didn’t exist then the promise of his coming did)? Look at Hitler, he’s a prime example of this and was mentioned in this thread. Only he went way farther than Caesar could have ever done and thought that he WAS god and tried to kill anyone and everyone who didn’t fit his “perfect image” but… kind of the same analogy. He hated Christians too. Top this with the attempted genocide of the Jews and you get imo, an unforgivable sin in god’s eyes and I think anyone who jests and says that he’s in Heaven or will ever make it to heaven is either delusional or needs to rethink what it’s like to be a Christian . But it’s only an opinion and only the lord can say for sure. Same with Caesar, we can only guess and debate but his ultimate fate lied with the Lord.

 

[thistle]

From all your posts I still have no clue why you single out Julius Caesar for a thread discussion.
As I mentioned there are hundreds of millions of people alive today who have never heard of the 10 Commandments.