Could Mary have said "No" at the Annunciation

[wllmjoseph]

Recently there was a post on the subject of Free Will and why God allows the “weeds” to be planted along with the “wheat”. The discussion on that thread reminded me of when I was in the Novitiate of the Little Brothers of the Good Shepherd.

 The novice master thought us in class that Mary was the Immaculate Conception.  She was conceived without the stain of Original Sin on her soul.  She was not able to "willingly" commit a sin.  In turn when the Arch Angel Gabriel came to Mary and announced God's plan in her live to be the mother of Jesus that it would not be possible for her to say "No".  For Blessed Mother to say "No" to the Arch Angel Gabriel would be a rejection of God's will in her life and that would constitute sin.  Mary's choices were good, better or best and that Blessed Mary choose the best response to God's request.  

 A couple of years ago I attended a prayer service at St. Thomas Aquinas of Charlotte, NC.  At that time a Litany was prayer and one of the petitions indicated that Mary choose to say Yes at the Annunciation.  I asked the priest who was a Capuchin Franciscan on this matter explaining what I had been thought at the Little Brothers of the Good Shepherd Novitiate.  He advised me that the novice master was wrong and that Mary could have choosen to say "No".

I am asking to be advised if Mary did have a choice at the Annunciation or if due to being conceived without the stain of Original Sin it was not possible to her to say "No’ to God’s request. I am requesting answers that are in line with the doctrines and teachings of Holy Mother Church. Thank you.

 

[1ke]

Yes. Mary had free will like every other.

Perhaps you misunderstood your teacher regarding the Immaculate Conception vis-à-vis free will, because one does not negate the other.

In fact, the idea that Mary **could not **commit a sin is incompatible with Church teaching. She **did not **commit a sin. She, like Adam and Eve, had free will and could have committed sin.

 

[wllmjoseph]

Yes. Mary had free will like every other.

Perhaps you misunderstood your teacher regarding the Immaculate Conception vis-à-vis free will, because one does not negate the other.

In fact, the idea that Mary **could not **commit a sin is incompatible with Church teaching. She **did not **commit a sin. She, like Adam and Eve, had free will and could have committed sin.

I did not misunderstand the novice master. I made the very point that you made in you post at which point he was adamant that I was wrong and that it was not possible for Mary to say “No” for she was conceived with sin. I had difficulty in understanding his explanation that is why I asked my question.

 

[dshix]

I did not misunderstand the novice master. I made the very point that you made in you post at which point he was adamant that I was wrong and that it was not possible for Mary to say “No” for she was conceived with sin. I had difficulty in understanding his explanation that is why I asked my question.

Your novice master is incorrect, then. Perhaps you may want to ask the pastor at your parish what he thinks of this.

 

[wllmjoseph]

Your novice master is incorrect, then. Perhaps you may want to ask the pastor at your parish what he thinks of this.

Thank you! I will ask my pastor for we no longer have the Capuchin Franciscans but Diocesan priests instead. Like the Capuchin Franciscans they are orthodox or strong on Church doctrine.

As far as the Novice Master was concerned I am not surprised he was incorrect. To make his point he went so far as to explain that at the Annunciation Mary’s choices could only have bee good, better or best. The novice master had many personal issues that he had never processed processed. There was a lot of emotional baggage from his past. He had a tendency to get upset easily if his reasoning was questioned. I am grateful to have this answered.

 

[dshix]

Thank you! I will ask my pastor for we no longer have the Capuchin Franciscans but Diocesan priests instead. Like the Capuchin Franciscans they are orthodox or strong on Church doctrine.

As far as the Novice Master was concerned I am not surprised he was incorrect. To make his point he went so far as to explain that at the Annunciation Mary’s choices could only have bee good, better or best. The novice master had many personal issues that he had never processed processed. There was a lot of emotional baggage from his past. He had a tendency to get upset easily if his reasoning was questioned. I am grateful to have this answered.

Ok, just be sure to speak very respectfully about the Novice Master. Whatever bad opinions you may have of him, there is no profit (and much risk) in bad-mouthing him to the pastor. Be careful to list the facts only, stating what he said, what you responded, and what his reaction was. Don’t try to explain WHY the Novice Master acted the way he did, or try to guess at his motivations.

Just inform the pastor of what transpired and leave it to him to act.

 

[Hoosier_Daddy]

Recently there was a post on the subject of Free Will and why God allows the “weeds” to be planted along with the “wheat”. The discussion on that thread reminded me of when I was in the Novitiate of the Little Brothers of the Good Shepherd.

 The novice master thought us in class that Mary was the Immaculate Conception.  She was conceived without the stain of Original Sin on her soul.  She was not able to "willingly" commit a sin.  In turn when the Arch Angel Gabriel came to Mary and announced God's plan in her live to be the mother of Jesus that it would not be possible for her to say "No".  For Blessed Mother to say "No" to the Arch Angel Gabriel would be a rejection of God's will in her life and that would constitute sin.  Mary's choices were good, better or best and that Blessed Mary choose the best response to God's request.  

 A couple of years ago I attended a prayer service at St. Thomas Aquinas of Charlotte, NC.  At that time a Litany was prayer and one of the petitions indicated that Mary choose to say Yes at the Annunciation.  I asked the priest who was a Capuchin Franciscan on this matter explaining what I had been thought at the Little Brothers of the Good Shepherd Novitiate.  He advised me that the novice master was wrong and that Mary could have choosen to say "No".

I am asking to be advised if Mary did have a choice at the Annunciation or if due to being conceived without the stain of Original Sin it was not possible to her to say "No’ to God’s request. I am requesting answers that are in line with the doctrines and teachings of Holy Mother Church. Thank you.

4 people were created without original sin. Two chose to sin, one was God and the other was Mary. Mary could excercise free will much like Adam and Eve had the free will to not choose God’s will.
If Mary COULDNT say no or couldn’t sin then t would be odd for God to use her as a vessel. Why not just make Jesus “appear”. No. God needed an ark for the new covenant. And it was built well and worthy for God.

 

[wllmjoseph]

4 people were created without original sin. Two chose to sin, one was God and the other was Mary. Mary could excercise free will much like Adam and Eve had the free will to not choose God’s will.
If Mary COULDNT say no or couldn’t sin then t would be odd for God to use her as a vessel. Why not just make Jesus “appear”. No. God needed an ark for the new covenant. And it was built well and worthy for God.

Awesome explanation! Thank you!!

 

[wllmjoseph]

Ok, just be sure to speak very respectfully about the Novice Master. Whatever bad opinions you may have of him, there is no profit (and much risk) in bad-mouthing him to the pastor. Be careful to list the facts only, stating what he said, what you responded, and what his reaction was. Don’t try to explain WHY the Novice Master acted the way he did, or try to guess at his motivations.

Just inform the pastor of what transpired and leave it to him to act.

I am aware that my personal feelings have not bearing in this discussion with the pastor. As far as the novice master is concerned I do love him. He went home to be with Jesus several years ago. I merely provided that information to provide the background and that it was not a matter of me misunderstanding but what I was told.

 

[powerofk]

Recently there was a post on the subject of Free Will and why God allows the “weeds” to be planted along with the “wheat”. The discussion on that thread reminded me of when I was in the Novitiate of the Little Brothers of the Good Shepherd.

 The novice master thought us in class that Mary was the Immaculate Conception.  She was conceived without the stain of Original Sin on her soul.  She was not able to "willingly" commit a sin.  In turn when the Arch Angel Gabriel came to Mary and announced God's plan in her live to be the mother of Jesus that it would not be possible for her to say "No".  For Blessed Mother to say "No" to the Arch Angel Gabriel would be a rejection of God's will in her life and that would constitute sin.  Mary's choices were good, better or best and that Blessed Mary choose the best response to God's request.  

 A couple of years ago I attended a prayer service at St. Thomas Aquinas of Charlotte, NC.  At that time a Litany was prayer and one of the petitions indicated that Mary choose to say Yes at the Annunciation.  I asked the priest who was a Capuchin Franciscan on this matter explaining what I had been thought at the Little Brothers of the Good Shepherd Novitiate.  He advised me that the novice master was wrong and that Mary could have choosen to say "No".

I am asking to be advised if Mary did have a choice at the Annunciation or if due to being conceived without the stain of Original Sin it was not possible to her to say "No’ to God’s request. I am requesting answers that are in line with the doctrines and teachings of Holy Mother Church. Thank you.

Mary did have the choice to say “no”. But, since she was conceived without sin, it allowed her to fully accept the will of God.

By the way, talking about the LBGS (which was recently brought back into the Hospitaller order), we should pray that the cause for sainthood be opened for Brother Matthias. In Albuquerque alone under his leadership, the Little Brothers opened an emergency homeless shelter and a home for retired religious. IIRC, Br. Matthias was also one of the earliest “sidewalk advocates” for the pro-life cause and personally trained one of our oldest current sidewalk advocates here in Albuquerque.

 

[thistle]

I did not misunderstand the novice master. I made the very point that you made in you post at which point he was adamant that I was wrong and that it was not possible for Mary to say “No” for she was conceived with sin. I had difficulty in understanding his explanation that is why I asked my question.

That would mean he denies the dogma of the Immaculate Conception.

 

[o_mlly]

… I am requesting answers that are in line with the doctrines and teachings of Holy Mother Church. Thank you.

CCC#490 … In fact, in order for Mary to be able to give the free assent of her faith to the announcement of her vocation, it was necessary that she be wholly borne by God’s grace (emphasis mine).

 

[wllmjoseph]

That would mean he denies the dogma of the Immaculate Conception.

I do agree with you. The Novice Master did not view it that way. For him it was a rejection of the Immaculate Conception to say that Blessed Mother could have said “No” at the Annunciation. For him it was clear cut. Mary was conceived without the stain of Original Sin on her soul and as such would not be able to reject a request from God or God’s will in her life for that matter. I do realized that his reasoning was incorrect. Especially since the Catechism # 490 makes it clear that “in order for Mary to be able to give the free assent of her faith to the announcement of her vocation, it was necessary that she be wholly borne by God’s grace” (emphasis mine).

I was disheartened when I was told that Mary had no choice but to say “Yes” at the Annunciation. That her only choices were to respond to God’s will with a good, better or best response. Knowing that Blessed Mother did have free will and that she freely choose to accept God’s will in her life makes me all the more devoted to her. Ave Maria!

 

[Hoosier_Daddy]

I was disheartened when I was told that Mary had no choice but to say “Yes” at the Annunciation. That her only choices were to respond to God’s will with a good, better or best response. Knowing that Blessed Mother did have free will and that she freely choose to accept God’s will in her life makes me all the more devoted to her. Ave Maria!

No need to be disheartened. He was wrong. It happens in theology. Perhaps more than you might think. Even popes can be wrong. Pretty much everybody except me.

 

[Vico]

Recently there was a post on the subject of Free Will and why God allows the “weeds” to be planted along with the “wheat”. The discussion on that thread reminded me of when I was in the Novitiate of the Little Brothers of the Good Shepherd.

 The novice master thought us in class that Mary was the Immaculate Conception.  She was conceived without the stain of Original Sin on her soul.  She was not able to "willingly" commit a sin.  In turn when the Arch Angel Gabriel came to Mary and announced God's plan in her live to be the mother of Jesus that it would not be possible for her to say "No".  For Blessed Mother to say "No" to the Arch Angel Gabriel would be a rejection of God's will in her life and that would constitute sin.  Mary's choices were good, better or best and that Blessed Mary choose the best response to God's request.  

 A couple of years ago I attended a prayer service at St. Thomas Aquinas of Charlotte, NC.  At that time a Litany was prayer and one of the petitions indicated that Mary choose to say Yes at the Annunciation.  I asked the priest who was a Capuchin Franciscan on this matter explaining what I had been thought at the Little Brothers of the Good Shepherd Novitiate.  He advised me that the novice master was wrong and that Mary could have choosen to say "No".

I am asking to be advised if Mary did have a choice at the Annunciation or if due to being conceived without the stain of Original Sin it was not possible to her to say "No’ to God’s request. I am requesting answers that are in line with the doctrines and teachings of Holy Mother Church. Thank you.

Adam and Eve also had sanctifying grace from the start, it was one of their gifts from God. God gave all angels and all mankind free will.

 

[Lea101]

I’m personally confused by this too.

God would have known if she would say no, so wouldn’t there be another mother who would bear him? Why would God just shrug and be like “oh well, no saviour for mankind then”. Especially when she was born without original sin. I don’t know how to explain myself with words here lol

Or if an angel tell you that you are going to be pregnant right now and say that your baby is going to save mankind, is it even possible to say no?

I like Mary because she went through so much and remained faithful, I just don’t understand when people say that if not for her, we won’t ever have a Saviour. I always assume God will stick to his words and give us Jesus even if Mary was afraid of being pregnant and refused.

I don’t think Mary would be punished or whatever if she said no, she was not forced to submit, but it would be impossible to say no. Which is why I get confused whenever people praise her for saying yes. I always praise her for the hardships she went through after that?

 

[Vico]

I’m personally confused by this too.

God would have known if she would say no, so wouldn’t there be another mother who would bear him? Why would God just shrug and be like “oh well, no saviour for mankind then”. Especially when she was born without original sin. I don’t know how to explain myself with words here lol

Or if an angel tell you that you are going to be pregnant right now and say that your baby is going to save mankind, is it even possible to say no?

I like Mary because she went through so much and remained faithful, I just don’t understand when people say that if not for her, we won’t ever have a Saviour. I always assume God will stick to his words and give us Jesus even if Mary was afraid of being pregnant and refused.

I don’t think Mary would be punished or whatever if she said no, she was not forced to submit, but it would be impossible to say no. Which is why I get confused whenever people praise her for saying yes. I always praise her for the hardships she went through after that?

The Catechism says it was free co-operation:

488 “God sent forth his Son”, but to prepare a body for him,125 he wanted the free co-operation of a creature. For this, from all eternity God chose for the mother of his Son a daughter of Israel, a young Jewish woman of Nazareth in Galilee, “a virgin betrothed to a man whose name was Joseph, of the house of David; and the virgin’s name was Mary”:126

The Father of mercies willed that the Incarnation should be preceded by assent on the part of the predestined mother, so that just as a woman had a share in the coming of death, so also should a woman contribute to the coming of life.127​

125 Gal 4:4; Heb 10:5.
126 Lk 1:26-27.
127 LG 56; cf. LG 61.

 

[fladreamer]

I’m personally confused by this too.

God would have known if she would say no, so wouldn’t there be another mother who would bear him? Why would God just shrug and be like “oh well, no saviour for mankind then”. Especially when she was born without original sin. I don’t know how to explain myself with words here lol

Or if an angel tell you that you are going to be pregnant**** right now and say that your baby is going to save mankind, is it even possible to say no?

---

I like Mary because she went through so much and remained faithful, I just don’t understand when people say that if not for her, we won’t ever have a Saviour. I always assume God will stick to his words and give us Jesus even if Mary was afraid of being pregnant and refused.

I don’t think Mary would be punished or whatever if she said no, she was not forced to submit, but it would be impossible to say no. Which is why I get confused whenever people praise her for saying yes. I always praise her for the hardships she went through after that?

Bolded part. It’s the Adam and Eve situation in reverse. They got to die spiritually and drag the remainder of mankind down the millenia down with them. Mary was selfless, they were selfish. And if Mary had said ‘‘no’’, God would’ve likely created another immaculate conception, then another one, until one of them was going to freely give her ‘‘fiat’’. Or forget about the whole plan of salvation altogether (kind of like Genesis 6:6), or pick another way for Jesus to come into this world.

 

[BornInMarch]

I’m personally confused by this too.

God would have known if she would say no, so wouldn’t there be another mother who would bear him? Why would God just shrug and be like “oh well, no saviour for mankind then”. Especially when she was born without original sin. I don’t know how to explain myself with words here lol

Or if an angel tell you that you are going to be pregnant right now and say that your baby is going to save mankind, is it even possible to say no?

I like Mary because she went through so much and remained faithful, I just don’t understand when people say that if not for her, we won’t ever have a Saviour. I always assume God will stick to his words and give us Jesus even if Mary was afraid of being pregnant and refused.

I don’t think Mary would be punished or whatever if she said no, she was not forced to submit, but it would be impossible to say no. Which is why I get confused whenever people praise her for saying yes. I always praise her for the hardships she went through after that?

Yes. One way is by being overly modest/humble.

But the key thing is that God has omniscience; meaning he knows exactly what is going to happen an eternity in advance. Meaning he had the Resurrection planned out even before Genesis 1:1. He knew how he was going to save humanity before humanity even existed.

So I’m sure that if Mary said “I can’t bare this burden” he would have picked someone else (perhaps Jesus would have arrived a bit later). But it was a non-issue from the start because God knew Mary would agree to bare Christ.

 

[thistle]

I do agree with you. The Novice Master did not view it that way. For him it was a rejection of the Immaculate Conception to say that Blessed Mother could have said “No” at the Annunciation. For him it was clear cut. Mary was conceived without the stain of Original Sin on her soul and as such would not be able to reject a request from God or God’s will in her life for that matter. I do realized that his reasoning was incorrect. Especially since the Catechism # 490 makes it clear that “in order for Mary to be able to give the free assent of her faith to the announcement of her vocation, it was necessary that she be wholly borne by God’s grace” (emphasis mine).

I was disheartened when I was told that Mary had no choice but to say “Yes” at the Annunciation. That her only choices were to respond to God’s will with a good, better or best response. Knowing that Blessed Mother did have free will and that she freely choose to accept God’s will in her life makes me all the more devoted to her. Ave Maria!

What he said does not make sense. Adam and Eve were born free from original sin but they made the choice to disobey God.
Mary chose not to say no to God but she certainly had the freewill to do so.