Could Mary have said "No" at the Annunciation

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My theological opinion is that the Blessed Virgin Mary could not say “No” to God at the Annunciation because of prevenient grace. But this point is an open question. The Magisterium has no definitive teaching either way.

Prevenient grace also:
  • gives each valid Pope the gift of truth and never-failing faith
  • keeps the Church, the Pope, and the body of Bishops indefectible
  • prevents the souls and devils in Hell from continuing to sin forever
  • prevents the souls in Purgatory from sinning
  • prevents the souls and angels in Heaven from ever saying No to God
  • brings each baptized person into the state of grace
  • makes the will truly free and the mind truly able to distinguish good from evil
Mary had free will, but this does not imply that she could have said No at the Annunciation, thereby thwarting God’s plan of salvation.
 
Ron_Conte said:
My theological opinion is that the Blessed Virgin Mary could not say “No” to God at the Annunciation because of prevenient grace. But this point is an open question. The Magisterium has no definitive teaching either way. …
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“Rightly therefore the holy Fathers see her [Mary] as used by God not merely in a passive way, but as** freely** cooperating in the work of human salvation through faith and obedience (emphasis mine).”
DOGMATIC CONSTITUTION ON THE CHURCH
LUMEN GENTIUM
SOLEMNLY PROMULGATED BY HIS HOLINESS
POPE PAUL VI
ON NOVEMBER 21, 1964
 
Ron_Conte said:
My theological opinion is that the Blessed Virgin Mary could not say “No” to God at the Annunciation because of prevenient grace. But this point is an open question. The Magisterium has no definitive teaching either way.

Prevenient grace also:
  • gives each valid Pope the gift of truth and never-failing faith
  • keeps the Church, the Pope, and the body of Bishops indefectible
  • prevents the souls and devils in Hell from continuing to sin forever
  • prevents the souls in Purgatory from sinning
  • prevents the souls and angels in Heaven from ever saying No to God
  • brings each baptized person into the state of grace
  • makes the will truly free and the mind truly able to distinguish good from evil
Mary had free will, but this does not imply that she could have said No at the Annunciation, thereby thwarting God’s plan of salvation.
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Are you saying that Mary did not enjoy the freedom of Eve? How then can she be a “new Eve?”
 
Ron_Conte said:
My theological opinion is that the Blessed Virgin Mary could not say “No” to God at the Annunciation because of prevenient grace. But this point is an open question. The Magisterium has no definitive teaching either way.

Prevenient grace also:
  • gives each valid Pope the gift of truth and never-failing faith
  • keeps the Church, the Pope, and the body of Bishops indefectible
  • prevents the souls and devils in Hell from continuing to sin forever
  • prevents the souls in Purgatory from sinning
  • prevents the souls and angels in Heaven from ever saying No to God
  • brings each baptized person into the state of grace
  • makes the will truly free and the mind truly able to distinguish good from evil
Mary had free will, but this does not imply that she could have said No at the Annunciation, thereby thwarting God’s plan of salvation.
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Prevenient grace prevents a person from committing sin, but I am not aware that it necessarily stops them from imperfections that are not sins. I still don’t see how you made the case that it would stop Mary from being capable of saying “no” at the Annunciation. It wouldn’t be a sin to do so.
 
fladreamer said:
Bolded part. It’s the Adam and Eve situation in reverse. They got to die spiritually and drag the remainder of mankind down the millenia down with them. Mary was selfless, they were selfish. And if Mary had said ‘‘no’’, God would’ve likely created another immaculate conception, then another one, until one of them was going to freely give her ‘‘fiat’’. Or forget about the whole plan of salvation altogether (kind of like Genesis 6:6), or pick another way for Jesus to come into this world.
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One person posed this point to me one day which made me wonder about if Mary is the only person who had received the graces of the Immaculate Conception in human history? God could have created an infinite amount of people who received such graces and all but Mary could have said no. Mary is the one who’s story continued with the fulfillment of the Incarnation of Christ, the others (should they have existed) are unknown because there is truly nothing more to know about them as their actions did not coincide with what God Willed for them to do such as He formed them.

Frankly in consideration of this, I came to develop an even greater reverence of Our Blessed Mother the Immaculate and Ever-Virgin Mary 🙂
 
Kenny_Kamel said:
One person posed this point to me one day which made me wonder about if Mary is the only person who had received the graces of the Immaculate Conception in human history? God could have created an infinite amount of people who received such graces and all but Mary could have said no. Mary is the one who’s story continued with the fulfillment of the Incarnation of Christ, the others (should they have existed) are unknown because there is truly nothing more to know about them as their actions did not coincide with what God Willed for them to do such as He formed them.

Frankly in consideration of this, I came to develop an even greater reverence of Our Blessed Mother the Immaculate and Ever-Virgin Mary 🙂
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The angels, and Adam and Eve, and Jesus Christ.
 
Mary was human, with an intellect and a will. Therefore, she could choose. However, she was not attracted by evil, not being born with original sin. Besides, being asked to be the mother of the Messiah would have been considered a great honor. So I don’t think it would be tempting to say no.
 
Vico said:
The angels, and Adam and Eve, and Jesus Christ.
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The angle I was going for was to say that Mary’s story could have been that of another who received the grace of the Immaculate Conception though they are unknown to us because they did not say yes to God whereas Mary did. God could have given the graces of the Immaculate Conception to anyone to serve His intended purpose, even multiple people, but they like us must exercise our free will to cooperate with the intentions of God’s Holy Will or not. Mary did, perhaps others did not and we would not know this side of Heaven.
 
dshix said:
Prevenient grace prevents a person from committing sin, but I am not aware that it necessarily stops them from imperfections that are not sins. I still don’t see how you made the case that it would stop Mary from being capable of saying “no” at the Annunciation. It wouldn’t be a sin to do so.
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Not that it has been misunderstood as meaning “prevent” but just to be sure – the Latin root for our word “prevenient” is “pre” or before and “veni” to come. Prevenient grace is that grace which comes before the human act encouraging us to do God’s will. It is synonymous with actual grace – the grace that allows us to do God’s will. If Mary was not free in her act then her act was not morally good which it most certainly was.
 
If you want to get psychological and delve into mysticism, the female part of the mind is completely passive, so it cannot say “no.” Mary can be thought of a metaphor for the passive mind, but most Christians think of her as being a fully human being.
 
Kenny_Kamel said:
The angle I was going for was to say that Mary’s story could have been that of another who received the grace of the Immaculate Conception though they are unknown to us because they did not say yes to God whereas Mary did. God could have given the graces of the Immaculate Conception to anyone to serve His intended purpose, even multiple people, but they like us must exercise our free will to cooperate with the intentions of God’s Holy Will or not. Mary did, perhaps others did not and we would not know this side of Heaven.
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It is Catholic dogma that the grace of the Immaculate Conception was a “singular grace and privilege”. So no one else, conceived of parents in the fallen state, was preserved from inheriting original sin.
 
The difference between Mary And Eve and thier free will choices is not because Eve didn’t have the graves Mary had. It’s because Eve was tempted, she was lied to and her curriosity was attacked. Eve was TOLD not to do something and Mary was asked.

There was no temptation of Mary by the serpent like Eve had.

Just like everything else, God was able to take the liar, the ancient liar and protect Mary from him.

This is why Mary crushes the head of the serpent. It’s the move Eve should have made.
 
Hoosier_Daddy said:
The difference between Mary And Eve and thier free will choices is not because Eve didn’t have the graves Mary had. It’s because Eve was tempted, she was lied to and her curriosity was attacked. Eve was TOLD not to do something and Mary was asked.

There was no temptation of Mary by the serpent like Eve had.

Just like everything else, God was able to take the liar, the ancient liar and protect Mary from him.

This is why Mary crushes the head of the serpent. It’s the move Eve should have made.
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The dogma is that concupiscence was not active in Adam and Eve and they had sanctifying grace. In those respects, Adam, Eve, and Mary are alike. We do not know what temptations Mary were given, only that she did not give into any. We are aware of the seven sorrows or Our Lady, which could be temptations. Christ was tempted.
 
Ron_Conte said:
It is Catholic dogma that the grace of the Immaculate Conception was a “singular grace and privilege”. So no one else, conceived of parents in the fallen state, was preserved from inheriting original sin.
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Can you refer us to where it is defined that “singular” is to mean that Mary and Mary alone is the single person to receive such grace? See post I had quoted that referred to Adam and Eve. Could it not mean by “singular” that Mary was given this single, perhaps all-encompassing, grace?
 
Kenny_Kamel said:
Can you refer us to where it is defined that “singular” is to mean that Mary and Mary alone is the single person to receive such grace? See post I had quoted that referred to Adam and Eve. Could it not mean by “singular” that Mary was given this single, perhaps all-encompassing, grace?
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CCC 492 “entirely unique holiness”

But once you start questioning the clear meaning of simple language, nothing can be proven from Church documents. The Church does not have a dogmatic dictionary to prove the meaning of each word in her teachings.

Adam and Eve were not preserved from inheriting original sin. They committed original sin. Jesus was not preserved from inheriting original sin, as his mother had no original sin to pass on to him. So Mary’s grace was unique, i.e. singular.
 
Ron_Conte said:
CCC 492 “entirely unique holiness”

But once you start questioning the clear meaning of simple language, nothing can be proven from Church documents. The Church does not have a dogmatic dictionary to prove the meaning of each word in her teachings.

Adam and Eve were not preserved from inheriting original sin. They committed original sin. Jesus was not preserved from inheriting original sin, as his mother had no original sin to pass on to him. So Mary’s grace was unique, i.e. singular.
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Adam and Eve had the state of sanctifying grace which is what being preserved of the stain of original sin means for one born.
 
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