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Benedict_777
Guest
Wierd question. But has lots of importance!
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saskatoon
Guest
No. She was conceived and preserved from the stain of original sin. Because of that she had no desire or thoughts of sin, no hatred or distain for others. She was free from everything that would be connected to the fall of Adam and Eve. I remember Bishop Sheen saying God had the opportunity to make His mother and He made her as perfect and nice as He possibly could.
:manvspc:
:manvspc:
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kennewickmike
Guest
Mary was “full of grace” She could not be a sinner and be full of grace. Do a search on the the Immaculate Conception and it should answer all your questions
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tee_eff_em
Guest
What is the difference between Mary’s sinless state and Adam’s and Eve’s (pre-fall) sinless state? Why is it they were able to sin (patently true) but you say Mary could not have done so?
tee
tee
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maurin
Guest
I’m not sure how other Traditionalists feel about questions of this nature appearing in the Traditional Catholic Forum, but it seems to me that this type of question is more of a challenge to the Traditional Catholic Dogma of Our Lady’s Immaculate Conception.
Of course all understand that the OP meant no harm, but please take this question elsewhere. Or, maybe rephrase it in such a way which is instructive, instead of a way that comes off as a challenge to Our Lady’s Immaculate Conception, such as: How do we explain the Dogma of Mary’s Immaculate Heart.
I hope I’m not pushing the envelope, but it seems this is more appropriate for the Apologetics Forum.
Of course all understand that the OP meant no harm, but please take this question elsewhere. Or, maybe rephrase it in such a way which is instructive, instead of a way that comes off as a challenge to Our Lady’s Immaculate Conception, such as: How do we explain the Dogma of Mary’s Immaculate Heart.
I hope I’m not pushing the envelope, but it seems this is more appropriate for the Apologetics Forum.
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wolfgang
Guest
No. There is no way. :nope:
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mardukm
Guest
As an Oriental Catholic, I believe Mary COULD have sinned. But she had more grace than any other creature in order to resist sin or choose not to sin.
Blessings,
Marduk
Blessings,
Marduk
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Yours_Truly
Guest
If Mary had a free she obviously could have sinned. If she didn’t have a free will she would not have been capable of merit. Therefore, it seems certain that Mary could have sinned.
You could say that sin was a potency that was never acuated.
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kennewickmike
Guest
This is what the Catechism of the Catholic Church has to say:
[CCC 491] Through the centuries the Church has become ever more aware that Mary, “full of grace” through God,134 was redeemed from the moment of her conception. That is what the dogma of the Immaculate Conception confesses, as Pope Pius IX proclaimed in 1854:
[CCC 492] The “splendor of an entirely unique holiness” by which Mary is “enriched from the first instant of her conception” comes wholly from Christ: she is “redeemed, in a more exalted fashion, by reason of the merits of her Son”.136 The Father blessed Mary more than any other created person “in Christ with every spiritual blessing in the heavenly places” and chose her “in Christ before the foundation of the world, to be holy and blameless before him in love”
[CCC 491] Through the centuries the Church has become ever more aware that Mary, “full of grace” through God,134 was redeemed from the moment of her conception. That is what the dogma of the Immaculate Conception confesses, as Pope Pius IX proclaimed in 1854:
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The most Blessed Virgin Mary was, from the first moment of her conception, by a singular grace and privilege of almighty God and by virtue of the merits of Jesus Christ, Savior of the human race, preserved immune from all stain of original sin.135
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FightingFat
Guest
I think we struggle with this idea because we see sin as so prevalent, temptation as unavoidable. Original Sin is the tug to do things that contradict our conscience, which knows what is right and what is not. I think the best way to understand the ideas of original sin is by looking at the Son, who reveals the Father, in order to try to understand what the Father wants us to know about this.
Many people today consider that in claiming Jesus was sinless, we are in some way depriving Him of a quintessentially human characteristic, however, this error results from an incorrect understanding of what sin and indeed freedom actually are.
The account of the fall in Genesis explains how man and woman chose to realise their human existence in conscious independence from and, in opposition to God. The constant accumulation of personal sins from then on has created a universal sinful environment. Something I think we are all able to observe and attest to.
When I sin, I consciously and freely oppose my better judgement. I attempt to rationalise my decision and set up my rationalising judgement against my will to do what is right. Think about it, you can spot yourself doing it. You know that you shouldn’t but you figure out a way to rationalise it. You still feel guilty afterwards, but the rationalisation gives you the excuse to do it in the first place. The implication of this action on our part constitutes a conflict with God because we are aware (but deny) the absolute obligation to do right, which in itself, comprises an encounter with the true, Absolute God Himself.
And yet, despite this, we knowingly, willingly turn away from that obligation and serve our own, selfish, often destructive purposes…eating that one bit of cake too many that will ultimately only serve to make us feel sick.
Jesus’ sinlessness arises from a proper understanding of the nature of His mission. Msgr Romano Guardini, goes as far as to suggest that:
“In the measure we comprehend sin, we comprehend Christ; and we comprehend our own sin only in the measure that we experience what he experienced when he sweated blood in the night”.
Here Msgr Guardini is saying that we can only truly understand sin when we consider it in the light of the Passion of our Lord and saviour, Jesus Christ. It is powerful to reflect on that. In Gethsemane, Jesus sweats blood. It’s like His body is already breaking down and little wonder if you really stop to think about it—He is under the weight of the sin of all the world.
So, Our Lady was free from the pull of that concupiscence and so was much more aware of the will of the Father and therefore able to align her will with His. His will for us is all that is good and best and right for our human dignity so not sinning is not missing out on something very human, but it is being more human, fully human, properly human the way that God wants us to be.
Many people today consider that in claiming Jesus was sinless, we are in some way depriving Him of a quintessentially human characteristic, however, this error results from an incorrect understanding of what sin and indeed freedom actually are.
The account of the fall in Genesis explains how man and woman chose to realise their human existence in conscious independence from and, in opposition to God. The constant accumulation of personal sins from then on has created a universal sinful environment. Something I think we are all able to observe and attest to.
When I sin, I consciously and freely oppose my better judgement. I attempt to rationalise my decision and set up my rationalising judgement against my will to do what is right. Think about it, you can spot yourself doing it. You know that you shouldn’t but you figure out a way to rationalise it. You still feel guilty afterwards, but the rationalisation gives you the excuse to do it in the first place. The implication of this action on our part constitutes a conflict with God because we are aware (but deny) the absolute obligation to do right, which in itself, comprises an encounter with the true, Absolute God Himself.
And yet, despite this, we knowingly, willingly turn away from that obligation and serve our own, selfish, often destructive purposes…eating that one bit of cake too many that will ultimately only serve to make us feel sick.
Jesus’ sinlessness arises from a proper understanding of the nature of His mission. Msgr Romano Guardini, goes as far as to suggest that:
“In the measure we comprehend sin, we comprehend Christ; and we comprehend our own sin only in the measure that we experience what he experienced when he sweated blood in the night”.
Here Msgr Guardini is saying that we can only truly understand sin when we consider it in the light of the Passion of our Lord and saviour, Jesus Christ. It is powerful to reflect on that. In Gethsemane, Jesus sweats blood. It’s like His body is already breaking down and little wonder if you really stop to think about it—He is under the weight of the sin of all the world.
So, Our Lady was free from the pull of that concupiscence and so was much more aware of the will of the Father and therefore able to align her will with His. His will for us is all that is good and best and right for our human dignity so not sinning is not missing out on something very human, but it is being more human, fully human, properly human the way that God wants us to be.
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DavidPalm
Guest
But we will have free wills in heaven, yet be unable to sin. That is a mystery, but unless I’m mistaken I believe the trajectory of human redemption goes:
Pre-Fall Adam/Eve - Able not to sin
Fallen human nature - Not able not to sin
The glorified in heaven - Not able to sin
By anticipation Our Lady received graces such that her whole life she lived out that final state of glorified human nature, not able to sin.
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PaulinVA
Guest
David, at the moment of the fall, Adam and Eve sinned. So, they were able to sin Pre Fall.
I don’t know. I always thought that the fact that Mary said ‘yes’ was such a big deal because she could have said no. Predestination is Calvinism; yeah I know it has to do with salvation, but you get the point.
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Catholic_Dude
Guest
That’s because our intellects will be fully enlightened, in the Beatific Vision there will be no doubt what the best choice is, and we will continually and freely choose it. On earth our intellects are not fully enlightened, so our perception of what is the best path to choose is limited, and so we sometimes get allured to sin because we think it will make us happy. And this is where walking by faith comes in, because we have to act according to our trust in God and not just according to the ‘material world’ we see in front of us.
Concupiscience doesn’t help because it is the constant urge to appeal to our carnal appetites, which due to the fall have been pushed out of ‘balance’ with our spiritual appetites.
Sin is never automatic or forced, it is always freely chosen. A fallen human can do objectively good or objectively evil works, but without grace he cannot perform supernaturally good works (ie objectively good works raised by grace).
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mardukm
Guest
Dear brother DavidPalm,
That the Theotokos was NOT ABLE to sin is a theologoumenon at best, a doctrinal error at most. To say that she “lived out that final state of glorified human nature” is, IMHO, an exaggeration of the dogmas on the Theotokos. Brother PaulinVA expressed it well - her “yes” was so much more momentous because she COULD have said “no.”
Blessings,
Marduk
This goes beyond what the dogma of the IC states. Brother Kennewickmike quoted the accepted teaching of the Church on the matter from the CCC.
That the Theotokos was NOT ABLE to sin is a theologoumenon at best, a doctrinal error at most. To say that she “lived out that final state of glorified human nature” is, IMHO, an exaggeration of the dogmas on the Theotokos. Brother PaulinVA expressed it well - her “yes” was so much more momentous because she COULD have said “no.”
Blessings,
Marduk
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DavidPalm
Guest
And you may very well be right. I would have to peruse my library to remember again where I got the idea.
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redrosetea
Guest
Mary was created sinless, but she also had free will just like anyone else does…She could have sinned ,but chose not to
She was Christs best disciple…and his most faithful servant
She was Christs best disciple…and his most faithful servant
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Geor9e
Guest
Well, even if she did commit a sin, she was born without original sin so I don’t think she would have been seperated from God anyways. If she did sin, I could only imagine it being small things like, getting irritated at someone.
However imho, I think that if God wanted her to be free of sin, he’d enforce that pretty well… so she probably didn’t sin.
However imho, I think that if God wanted her to be free of sin, he’d enforce that pretty well… so she probably didn’t sin.
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Benedict_777
Guest
Well…We know Mary definitly didnt sin. The question comes down to free will it seems. My brothers and I have been dialoging about this for quite some time. She was conceived without original sin. And the Catechism says she was preserved immune to original sin. Well if she could have sinned would that not have been her original sin (first sin). So it seems to me she could not have sinned because the Catechism also stresses that she was pre destined by the fruits of Jesus’ death and ressurection. Now they will say that means she didnt have free will but as one of my Catechist fiends puts it free will is the choice to do this or to do that, not necassarily the choice to do good and evil. Mary could have hugged Elizabeth or shake her hand neither is evil but she was still free to do either or. Adam and eve did not have original sin either but they were not preserved immune as Mary was and they were not given the fruits of Jesus’ deatha and ressurection at conception as Mary was. But its a tough question. Ive heard Fr. John Hardon was the one to state this question in his program for learning the Catechism, which was strengthened by Mother Teresa and Pope John Paul II. And supposedly he said she could not have sinned.
And to clear things up, when i posted this question it was not to question Mary’s purity from sin but to delve deeper into the mystery of the Immaculate Conception.
And to clear things up, when i posted this question it was not to question Mary’s purity from sin but to delve deeper into the mystery of the Immaculate Conception.
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Benedict_777
Guest
new title for this thread just to restate my question a little clearer.
Was Mary capable of commiting sin.
Was Mary capable of commiting sin.
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Yours_Truly
Guest
That’s because we will have the beatific vision. In order to sin we would first have to will something contrary to the will of God. One who possesses the beatific vision could never will anything more. The possession of the beatific vision will prevent us from willing anything less, which is what sin would be.
Let’s take a poor example. Let’s say that a person loved money more than anything else. This person was given 1000 pounds of gold and billions of dollars. He was then presented with a nickel and asked to trade the former for the later. He wouldn’t do it. Why? Because the later is far less than the former.
When one is in heaven, he has a perfect love of God, and possesses the beatific vision. Anything less (such as sin) would be less than the nickel in the example above. Therefore the motive for sin would be lacking.
I would need to see a quote for this. The Blessed Mother had a free will, and did not possess the beatific vision. Therefore, in my opinion, she was certainly capable of sinning.
Our Lord, on the other hand, did possess the beatific vision while on earth, which is why Jesus, as man, did not have the theological virtues of faith and hope. He did have a human human free will, but He also possessed the beatific vision during his earthly life.
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