Could Mary have sinned?

[NotWorthy]

Hi CM
Show me in Scripture where it says *specifically *that Mary never sinned. As for the mentally deficient or infants, they have sinned, they just don’t have capability to know that it’s wrong or understand what they are doing.

How can you sin without knowing you are sinning?

There was a case here where I live when a mentally handicap young man accidentally killed a baby, he was hugging it and suffocated the baby to death. It was very sad but I don’t think God will judge that man the same way he will you or I.

I don’t think God would judge ANYONE for accidentally killing someone the same way He would judge if they did it willfully. This example has nothing to do with being handicapped.

Also, I ask you again, Did Jesus sin? We all know that of course He did not.

But the follow up question is, “Was Jesus fully Man”? If yes, then He would apply under “All have sinned”. If not, then we have a whole different thread to cover that heresy.

 

[Mannyfit75]

Hi CM
Show me in Scripture where it says *specifically *that Mary never sinned. As for the mentally deficient or infants, they have sinned, they just don’t have capability to know that it’s wrong or understand what they are doing. I have 4 children and my mother works with the mentally handicapped and they have on occasion gotten very angry (which is a sin) they just don’t understand. God will not hold them accountable. There was a case here where I live when a mentally handicap young man accidentally killed a baby, he was hugging it and suffocated the baby to death. It was very sad but I don’t think God will judge that man the same way he will you or I.

Mary said the following:

“I am the Handmaid of the Lord. Be it done unto me according to your word.”

“My soul magnify the greatest of the Lord, and my spirit rejoices in God, my savior.”

Elizabeth said unto Mary, “Blessed you are amongst woman and blessed is the fruit of your womb.”

Gabriel said unto Mary, “Hail, full of grace.”

Jesus said concerning a woman who keep the word of God.

“Blessed is she who hears the word of God, and keep it.”

At Cana Mary said to the servant. “Do whatever He tell you.”

These are but a few Scriptural text that refer directly to Mary. For one Mary heard the Word of God and keep it. She keep it through her life. Mary never sinned.

Now it is is your turn to show me where Mary committed personal sin. You can’t find one because for one. She never sinned.

 

[Huiou_Theou]

Hi CM
Show me in Scripture where it says specifically that Mary never sinned. As for the mentally deficient or infants, they have sinned, they just don’t have capability to know that it’s wrong or understand what they are doing. I have 4 children and my mother works with the mentally handicapped and they have on occasion gotten very angry (which is a sin) they just don’t understand. God will not hold them accountable. There was a case here where I live when a mentally handicap young man accidentally killed a baby, he was hugging it and suffocated the baby to death. It was very sad but I don’t think God will judge that man the same way he will you or I.
Reply With Quote

Hi non-denom, I was driving by a non-denominational christian church, and read the billboard, and thought the whole quote would be valuable. Peace.

Ephes 4:24 And that ye put on the new man, which after God is created in righteousness and true holiness.
Ephes 4:25 Wherefore putting away lying, speak every man truth with his neighbour: for we are members one of another.
Ephes 4:26 Be ye angry, and sin not: let not the sun go down upon your wrath:
Ephes 4:27 Neither give place to the devil.

So, it isn’t anger as such – because we can all be angry without sinning – it is just the anger which is malicious anger, hatred which bears malice – which simmers in the heart and eventually kills love if that is all that is in the heart.

BUT Even the son will be angry in justice, say the psalms – kiss the son lest he be angry.

Hope that helps. I do appreciate much of your post – but I don’t think it appropriate to accuse Jesus’ mother of sin without proof.
Remember the pharisee and the tax collector? The tax collector went away justified – but can you convict the Pharisee of being worse than the tax collector – what sins did he ACTUALLY commit that scripture shows? If not, I humbly suggest that in this matter, it is better to err on the side which causes the least damage on Judgment day – Mary is, after all, one of the mothers who enjoy the commandment “you shall honor your Father and Mother.”

 

[justasking4]

Originally Posted by NonDenom
Mary did sin, maybe only a few times, but she most certainly did sin. All have sinned except God.

Where does it say this in Scripture?

Where does it say James, Stephen or Andrew sinned?
Since specific sins are not mentioned about many people in the Scripures should we assume they never sinned?

 

[Mannyfit75]

Where does it say James, Stephen or Andrew sinned?
Since specific sins are not mentioned about many people in the Scripures should we assume they never sinned?

The difference between Mary and the Apostles is that none of the disciples had Jesus in their womb. She gave birth to Jesus, the disciples did not. God hate sins, and does not want his son to be defiled by a sinful woman. Tell me where in Scripture, God love sin? Well, you can find it. God hate sin. God is insulted by sin.

Since Jesus’ flesh comes from his mother. His flesh had to be pure.

Second, Luke 1:28, Gabriel’s greeting indictate that Mary was already favored and full of grace. Saved by God from the moment of her conception… That is the difference.

The other disciples did not.

 

[MariaG]

Where does it say James, Stephen or Andrew sinned?
Since specific sins are not mentioned about many people in the Scripures should we assume they never sinned?

What sin does an infant who dies shortly after birth commit? If all have sinned means what you imply, what sin does an infant have

 

[justasking4]

What sin does an infant who dies shortly after birth commit? If all have sinned means what you imply, what sin does an infant have

According the catechism of the catholic church they to are sinners or born into sin. Here is what it says:
1250 Born with a fallen human nature and tainted by original sin, children also have need of the new birth in Baptism to be freed from the power of darkness and brought into the realm of the freedom of the children of God, to which all men are called. The sheer gratuitousness of the grace of salvation is particularly manifest in infant Baptism. The Church and the parents would deny a child the priceless grace of becoming a child of God were they not to confer Baptism shortly after birth.

 

[justasking4]

Originally Posted by justasking4
Where does it say James, Stephen or Andrew sinned?
Since specific sins are not mentioned about many people in the Scripures should we assume they never sinned?
Mannyfit75
The difference between Mary and the Apostles is that none of the disciples had Jesus in their womb. She gave birth to Jesus, the disciples did not. God hate sins, and does not want his son to be defiled by a sinful woman. Tell me where in Scripture, God love sin? Well, you can find it. God hate sin. God is insulted by sin.

Since Jesus’ flesh comes from his mother. His flesh had to be pure.

Second, Luke 1:28, Gabriel’s greeting indictate that Mary was already favored and full of grace. Saved by God from the moment of her conception… That is the difference.

The other disciples did not.

If what you say is true how was Mary “protected” from sin in her birth since her parents were fallen human beings themselves?

 

[GandalfTheWhite]

If what you say is true how was Mary “protected” from sin in her birth since her parents were fallen human beings themselves?

He waved a magical wand and said: let Mary be concieved without the Original Sin! And so Mary was concieved without the Original Sin.

For more iformation call: 1-816-GOD-KNOWS

 

[Mannyfit75]

If what you say is true how was Mary “protected” from sin in her birth since her parents were fallen human beings themselves?

God preserved Mary from sin. Sin would be like a mud pit. Before she step into the pit, God warned her and didn’t step into the mud. She was saved by God. Mary’s parents were not. Mary’s preservation was to prepare for the coming of the Word of God made flesh.

God’s power preserved Mary from all sin, original sin and personal sin.

 

[justasking4]

God preserved Mary from sin. Sin would be like a mud pit. Before she step into the pit, God warned her and didn’t step into the mud. She was saved by God. Mary’s parents were not. Mary’s preservation was to prepare for the coming of the Word of God made flesh.

God’s power preserved Mary from all sin, original sin and personal sin.

What you say here sounds reasonable but where is the evidence that this indeed did happen?
Its one thing to make a claim and another to show that its true.

 

[Mannyfit75]

What you say here sounds reasonable but where is the evidence that this indeed did happen?
Its one thing to make a claim and another to show that its true.

Let me put this way, justasking4. In the OT, God hate sin. When the Jews did not live up to the precepts and statues of God, they were punished by their sins. Those who remain righteous in the eyes of God were rewarded and praised.

Mary accepted the Word of God, and she was one of the consecrated temple virgin. She was kept this vow to God since she was 12 yrs old. In 2 yrs, Mary became bethroth to Joseph. God highly favored Mary since she is the virgin mention in Issiah 7:14. God see fit that Mary had to be preserved from sin in order to bring Word of God to us. God dwelling amongst men came because of Mary’s FIAT.

She was the type of Ark, the Ark of the New Covenant (Jesus Christ). Like the Ark, Jesus is the High Priest, Living Bread, and Word of God. In the Old Testament Ark, the Ark carried manna, Aaron’s rod (symbolicism of Aaron’s priesthood), and the Tablets of the Ten Commandments.

Mary is more holier than the Old Ark of the Covenant because in her womb, she carried Word of God who was from the beginning all things were made. In the beginning, this Word did not have flesh. He was spirit, hidden and unrevealed by the Father. Throughout the fullness of time, God would send forth his only beloved son to redeem us from our sins.

Mary carried the Word Incarnate, Jesus, who is True God and True Man. She is literally the Mother of God, because Jesus is God. She is not the Mother of the Trinity. She is the Mother of the Second Person of the Trinity made flesh.

Put yourself in her situation for once. You know from Scripture, Jesus did not start his ministry until he was 30 yrs old. His ministry was 3 yrs and he died at age of 33, and was raised from the dead.

Now suppose you were the Mary and Jesus is your son. You know Jesus is God. Would you consider for once to sin and break the God’s commandment in the very presence of God? It would be very difficult especially you are living with Emmanuel in your midst. Second, God’s presence is much stronger than it is then than now.

In fact, Jesus mere presence gave the Apostle to do many things. His presence made Peter walk on water, though when Peter doubt, he lost his faith and required Jesus to save him. Mary is different than the Apostle.

For one, Mary was God’s dwelling place for the first 9 months. Jesus lived inside Mary for 9 months. Jesus receive nutrition from Mary. She breast feed the infant Jesus. If you done any research on the connection between the mother and child is very intimate.

We also know that throughout Jesus’ childhood, he was obedient to his parents. Even when Joseph died, he remain obedient and even take over Joseph’s job as a carpenter. Would you sin in the presence of God, if you were his mother? I wouldn’t. He knows your heart and read your thoughts like an open book. Second, Jesus’ mere presence brings unlimited graces. I believe Jesus presence only strengthen the grace Mary already received from the Holy Spirit. So what is am getting at? It would be impossible for Mary to sin because Jesus is God. Second, she would be lying to herself and become a hyprocrite. Mary was no hyprocrite, my friend.

Mary said, "I am the handmaid of the Lord…“My soul proclaim the greatness of the Lord and My spirit rejoices in God, my savior. All generation will call me blessed.” We also know Mary could not have sin because Jesus even said, “Blessed is she who hears the word of God and keep it.”

Mary keep the Word of God. We know this because as the other Apostles and disciple abandon Jesus at the foot of the cross, Mary remain loyal. She was there along with John and other holy woman. Mary remain faithful. Mary did not abandon her son! Jesus is the flesh of Her flesh, and the Bone of her bone. There is nothing more intimate than the love between the mother and child.

Mary cannot sin. If she did, I believe Jesus would strike her dead for commit a serious sin, much like those men who touch the Ark of the Covenant.

 

[justasking4]

Part 1

Mannyfit75;3116421]
Originally Posted by justasking4
What you say here sounds reasonable but where is the evidence that this indeed did happen?
Its one thing to make a claim and another to show that its true.

Mannyfit75
Let me put this way, justasking4. In the OT, God hate sin. When the Jews did not live up to the precepts and statues of God, they were punished by their sins. Those who remain righteous in the eyes of God were rewarded and praised.

Are you saying that even though there were some who may have been righteous that means they never sinned?

Mary accepted the Word of God, and she was one of the consecrated temple virgin. She was kept this vow to God since she was 12 yrs old.

This is not in any of the gospels. Where do you get this from?

In 2 yrs, Mary became bethroth to Joseph. God highly favored Mary since she is the virgin mention in Issiah 7:14. God see fit that Mary had to be preserved from sin in order to bring Word of God to us. God dwelling amongst men came because of Mary’s FIAT.

She was the type of Ark, the Ark of the New Covenant (Jesus Christ). Like the Ark, Jesus is the High Priest, Living Bread, and Word of God. In the Old Testament Ark, the Ark carried manna, Aaron’s rod (symbolicism of Aaron’s priesthood), and the Tablets of the Ten Commandments.

Is this the offical teaching of the catholic church or how you look at this?

Mary is more holier than the Old Ark of the Covenant because in her womb, she carried Word of God who was from the beginning all things were made. In the beginning, this Word did not have flesh. He was spirit, hidden and unrevealed by the Father. Throughout the fullness of time, God would send forth his only beloved son to redeem us from our sins.

Why did people die if they touched the Ark of the Covenant? I agree that it was “holy” but why did they die?

Mary carried the Word Incarnate, Jesus, who is True God and True Man. She is literally the Mother of God, because Jesus is God. She is not the Mother of the Trinity. She is the Mother of the Second Person of the Trinity made flesh.

Put yourself in her situation for once. You know from Scripture, Jesus did not start his ministry until he was 30 yrs old. His ministry was 3 yrs and he died at age of 33, and was raised from the dead.

Now suppose you were the Mary and Jesus is your son. You know Jesus is God. Would you consider for once to sin and break the God’s commandment in the very presence of God? It would be very difficult especially you are living with Emmanuel in your midst. Second, God’s presence is much stronger than it is then than now.

If a person is “in Christ” he has the Spirit of Christ in him and yet we still sin. I don’t think that when Christ was a baby He overwhelmed people with the power of deity since He “emptied” Himself. See Philippians 2:6-7

In fact, Jesus mere presence gave the Apostle to do many things. His presence made Peter walk on water, though when Peter doubt, he lost his faith and required Jesus to save him. Mary is different than the Apostle.

Mary is different than the aposltes in one sense but in another she is identical in that she shares the same humanity and weakness.

For one, Mary was God’s dwelling place for the first 9 months. Jesus lived inside Mary for 9 months. Jesus receive nutrition from Mary. She breast feed the infant Jesus. If you done any research on the connection between the mother and child is very intimate.

True

We also know that throughout Jesus’ childhood, he was obedient to his parents. Even when Joseph died, he remain obedient and even take over Joseph’s job as a carpenter. Would you sin in the presence of God, if you were his mother? I wouldn’t. He knows your heart and read your thoughts like an open book.

We all live in the presence of God right now and yet we still sin. I can’t stop sinning knowing what i know. Paul also alludes to this in Romans 7.

Second, Jesus’ mere presence brings unlimited graces. I believe Jesus presence only strengthen the grace Mary already received from the Holy Spirit.

You are making some incredible claims here. I wonder if other catholics would concur.

So what is am getting at? It would be impossible for Mary to sin because Jesus is God. Second, she would be lying to herself and become a hyprocrite. Mary was no hyprocrite, my friend.

The only way i could agree with you here is if Mary was some kind of angel. Being part of the human race of which scripture tells she was makes this assertion not possible.

 

[justasking4]

Part 2

Mary said, "I am the handmaid of the Lord…“My soul proclaim the greatness of the Lord and My spirit rejoices in God, my savior. All generation will call me blessed.” We also know Mary could not have sin because Jesus even said, “Blessed is she who hears the word of God and keep it.”

You have to assume she always kept the word of God and yet we know no human being born of Adam can do so.

Mary keep the Word of God. We know this because as the other Apostles and disciple abandon Jesus at the foot of the cross, Mary remain loyal. She was there along with John and other holy woman. Mary remain faithful. Mary did not abandon her son! Jesus is the flesh of Her flesh, and the Bone of her bone. There is nothing more intimate than the love between the mother and child.

Mary cannot sin. If she did, I believe Jesus would strike her dead for commit a serious sin, much like those men who touch the Ark of the Covenant.

Is what you write here offical catholic teachings on Mary?

 

[Mannyfit75]

Part 1

Are you saying that even though there were some who may have been righteous that means they never sinned?

Someone who never break the ten commandments never sinned period. Two, infants who cannot decide right and from wrong are incapable of sin, nor do those who are mentally handicap.

This is not in any of the gospels. Where do you get this from?

From Protoevangelium of James, and from our Eastern Christian tradition which is ancient.

Is this the offical teaching of the catholic church or how you look at this?

That is what Most of the Early Church Fathers believed, and this is the view of most Catholic theology. The Church believe that just as the Ark was pure, so too is Mary. The Church believes Mary remain sinless just like Jesus. Her sinlessness was due do God’s handy work, not of her own.

Why did people die if they touched the Ark of the Covenant? I agree that it was “holy” but why did they die?

Because the Ark of the Covenant is God’s dwelling. Because no one can see the face of God and live. It was also instructed by God himself through Moses.

If a person is “in Christ” he has the Spirit of Christ in him and yet we still sin. I don’t think that when Christ was a baby He overwhelmed people with the power of deity since He “emptied” Himself. See Philippians 2:6-7

Jesus emptied himself indeed. I read Philippians. Jesus humble himself, and he remain obedient to God. Likewise, Mary remain obedient to God as well.

Mary is different than the aposltes in one sense but in another she is identical in that she shares the same humanity and weakness.

Mary was closer to Jesus more than the Apostle.

True

No argument there.

We all live in the presence of God right now and yet we still sin. I can’t stop sinning knowing what i know. Paul also alludes to this in Romans 7.

You are correct, but back then Jesus walk with men and eat and drink with his disciples. His mere presence must have been unbelieveable, especially after his glorious resurrection.

You are making some incredible claims here. I wonder if other catholics would concur.

Let me put it this way, in heaven, no one sins because of God’s presence. Likewise, since Jesus lived with Mary the majority of his lifetime, I believe his presence preserved Mary from commiting any personal sin.

The only way i could agree with you here is if Mary was some kind of angel. Being part of the human race of which scripture tells she was makes this assertion not possible.

Mary was created being. She was the highly favored daughter of God the Father. Gabriel called her full of grace same as highly favored, but in the strict sense, Mary, being full of grace implies that God saved her already. The Greek kecharitome means “one who is been filled with grace.” Not the past tense. So sometime in her past, God already saved her. We believe this to be the Immaculate Conception. Mary was preserved from original sin and personal sin from the moment of her conception.

 

[Mannyfit75]

Part 2

You have to assume she always kept the word of God and yet we know no human being born of Adam can do so.

Really. Consider this fact. God also created Adam and Eve without sin before the fall. I believe that sin was already present at the moment of the creation of Man. The serpeant is a prime example. Though the sin which I speak of is the sin of the angels, not of men. Since Adam’s sin the world fell with him.

It is true no human being born of can do so. However, God can intervene and he created Mary, the most perfect created human being preserved her from sin. Mary herself cannot save herself.

Most artist would relate to this because if could create your ideal woman, you would want her to perfect. God is a perfectionist when he created Mary. To select an ideal mother of His only begotten son, God preserved Mary from sin, so that from her flesh, Jesus, the Messiah, the Word of God, the Lamb of God would be born.

Is what you write here offical catholic teachings on Mary?

If you are asking me if Jesus would strike his mother dead if she sin. No that is not official Church teaching. I am going by assumptions. I believe the fear of breaking God’s will only reinforce Mary’s commitment not to sin. She grow up in a tradition Jewish family would are well verse in Hebrew Scriptures. She would know the Mosaic Law in and out. Any devout female Jew, especially the one who has been chosen by God to be the mother of the Messiah have to live up by keeping the precepts of the Lord.

 

[Ceil-1]

I find it amazing that people born only decades ago think they know more about what happened 2000 years ago than the holy fathers who sat at the feet of the apostles themselves.

These men and women with more education, discipline, and holiness in their pinkies than several of us put together didn’t know what they were talking about?

These people who suffered for their faith and in more cases than not, were martyred, know less than you, barely-schooled, self-indulgent johnny-come-latelies. These people who spent the time you spend watching TV and playing on the computer in prayer, penance and fasting, just to get closer to God. (Not to mention walking on foot to spread the Gospel).

And you base your judgments on a remote translation of a document that gives a select few series of events, while denying that these people, who sat at the foot of the apostles themselves, lived in the approximate location, and sat in company with Jesus’ relatives and friends,could possibly have more of a clue about it all than you.

You explain yourselves. Where do yout get all this infused wisdom from on high that you deny these people were given?

Well, I’m waiting. The truth is, you are disrespectful of these men of the Church which makes you disrespectful of God by extension.
God is supposed to fit your notion of how things ought to go, which is naturally superior, rather than you forming your consciences around what has been passed on.

If I didn’t see it for myself, I wouldn’t believe it.

These things are Sacred Tradition. If you don’t like it, there is something wrong with your attitude, not the Church.

 

[justasking4]

Originally Posted by justasking4
Part 1

 

[Mannyfit75]

Who could do such a thing except the Lord Jesus? Since all men are from Adam and we all inherit the “sin nature” from him (see Romans 5:12) how could any man ever live a perfect life before God? Not even in OT times would this be possible.

 

[guanophore]

Old Scholar;3060120:

** If you want to say Scripture is not correct, then you destroy traditiion because you are saying Scripture gives you tradition. **

I have not read the remainder of the thread, so maybe someone has corrected this already? Tradition does not come from scripture, it is the other way around. Both are part of the one Divine Deposit of Faith
Old Scholar;3060120:

You can’t have it both ways.

Why not?
Old Scholar;3060120:

** From where does it get that authority?**

From Jesus
Old Scholar;3060120:

** You say Scripture is not true…**

Nobody said that, what was said is that you interpretation is not consistent with Apostolic teaching.
Old Scholar;3060120:

**
Would you be so kind as to give us the Scripture that says Jesus gave the authority to the Catholic Church to interpret Scripture???**

John 16:13-15
13 When the Spirit of truth comes, he will guide you into all the truth; for he will not speak on his own authority, but whatever he hears he will speak, and he will declare to you the things that are to come. 14 He will glorify me, for he will take what is mine and declare it to you. 15 All that the Father has is mine; therefore I said that he will take what is mine and declare it to you.