Could Mary have sinned?

[justasking4]

Eve was the mother of all mankind. Mary is the spiritual mother. Hence why Jesus calls her John’s mother despite no family relationship whatsoever.

We already know Mary is never spoken of like this in Scripture. Would you happen to know which church father did i.e. “mother of all mankind”?

 

[Deana]

Instead of praying about it or relying on luck study what the Scriptures teach about this. One thing you will not find in them is any reference to Mary being the New Eve. No writer of the NT ever says such a thing about her like that.

Babe its our religious teaching that she is and Jesus is the New Adam. Just ask God to show and tell you the Truth, please?

 

[EphelDuath]

No

Sin came to the world through a woman, and just the same, salvation came through a woman. If Jesus is the New Adam, then Mary is the New Eve. Remember Genesis 3:15? What do you think the significance of that prophecy is?

Your 3 points don’t necessarily follow especially from a scriptual view. Mary is never referred to as the mother of the church by any writer of Scripture. Its not even implied.

Luke (through Elizabeth) calls her the mother of God. From there it’s a logical following: she’s the mother of the man who built the Church, therefore, she’s the mother of the Church.

We already know Mary is never spoken of like this in Scripture. Would you happen to know which church father did i.e. “mother of all mankind”?

Ignatius was the first person to imply Mary is the New Eve.

“There is one Physician who is possessed both of flesh and spirit; both made and not made; God existing in flesh; true life in death; both of Mary and of God; first possible and then impossible, even Jesus Christ our Lord." Ignatius, To the Ephesians, 7 (c. A.D. 110).

Justin Martyr was the first person to specifically label her as such.

“He became man by the Virgin, in order that the disobedience which proceeded from the serpent might receive its destruction in the same manner in which it derived its origin. For Eve, who was a virgin and undefiled, having conceived the word of the serpent, brought forth disobedience and death. But the Virgin Mary received faith and joy, when the angel Gabriel announced the good tidings to her that the Spirit of the Lord would come upon her, and the power of the Highest would overshadow her: wherefore also the Holy Thing begotten of her is the Son of God; and she replied, ‘Be it unto me according to thy word.’ And by her has He been born, to whom we have proved so many Scriptures refer, and by whom God destroys both the serpent and those angels and men who are like him; but works deliverance from death to those who repent of their wickedness and believe upon Him.” Justin Martyr, Dialogue with Trypho, 100 (A.D. 155).

I think you can derive all of this just from scripture, though. Jesus calls her the mother of John, why do you think John would mention that? There are thousands of details he could’ve put in his Gospel instead of that one line, yet he chooses to put in Jesus’ praise of Mary. That speaks to me.

 

[Deana]

Sin came to the world through a woman, and just the same, salvation came through a woman. If Jesus is the New Adam, then Mary is the New Eve. Remember Genesis 3:15? What do you think the significance of that prophecy is?

Luke (through Elizabeth) calls her the mother of God. From there it’s a logical following: she’s the mother of the man who built the Church, therefore, she’s the mother of the Church.

Ignatius was the first person to imply Mary is the New Eve.

“There is one Physician who is possessed both of flesh and spirit; both made and not made; God existing in flesh; true life in death; both of Mary and of God; first possible and then impossible, even Jesus Christ our Lord." Ignatius, To the Ephesians, 7 (c. A.D. 110).

Justin Martyr was the first person to specifically label her as such.

“He became man by the Virgin, in order that the disobedience which proceeded from the serpent might receive its destruction in the same manner in which it derived its origin. For Eve, who was a virgin and undefiled, having conceived the word of the serpent, brought forth disobedience and death. But the Virgin Mary received faith and joy, when the angel Gabriel announced the good tidings to her that the Spirit of the Lord would come upon her, and the power of the Highest would overshadow her: wherefore also the Holy Thing begotten of her is the Son of God; and she replied, ‘Be it unto me according to thy word.’ And by her has He been born, to whom we have proved so many Scriptures refer, and by whom God destroys both the serpent and those angels and men who are like him; but works deliverance from death to those who repent of their wickedness and believe upon Him.” Justin Martyr, Dialogue with Trypho, 100 (A.D. 155).

I think you can derive all of this just from scripture, though. Jesus calls her the mother of John, why do you think John would mention that? There are thousands of details he could’ve put in his Gospel instead of that one line, yet he chooses to put in Jesus’ praise of Mary. That speaks to me.

Thank you for backing me up.

 

[Deana]

Instead of praying about it or relying on luck study what the Scriptures teach about this. One thing you will not find in them is any reference to Mary being the New Eve. No writer of the NT ever says such a thing about her like that.

St. John said, while in boiling wax and not burning, “I saw in the Heavens and Mary was crowned the Queen of Heaven and Earth.”

 

[MariaG]

Lets see here, I’ll name a few.

1. Anger, Baby’s tend to get very mad if they don’t get what they want.
2. Covet, You ever seen a baby look at someones ice cream cone, you know they wish they had it.
3. Stealing, Baby’s will steal anything they want.
4. Ever slap a baby lightly on the hand? They hit back instead of turning the other cheek.

I know that this is a reach, but it’s true. Babies are guilty off these things and many more, but we don’t hold them accountable because they obviously don’t know any better.

We? Who is the “we” and why aren’t infants held accountable for it.

Do you believe in different levels of sin?

 

[MariaG]

Yeah! All caught up at least for the next 10 minutes

I see from the reading of posts justasking4 that you believe in original sin, yes?

So do you believe that baptism is just symbollic or that it is through baptism that God cleanses us of original sin?

Secondly, does not the catholic church baptize babies because of original sin?

Yes, we do. But do you baptize infants? Do you feel it is impossible for infants to be born again into the body of Christ? Or only that it doesn’t happen through baptism?

Is baptism only symbollic or an actual miracle through which we are born again through the gift of the Holy Spirit?

My response at this point would apply to why the catholic church baptizes babies. There are sinners (even though they have not sinned in deed) because of the sin of Adam which they inherit. This would also apply to Mary since she to is a child of Adam.

And this is the teaching of the Catholic Church.

What you fail to understand, is that while we are saved after birth, Mary was saved before conception. She was under original sin too.

I know you have heard this before, but I pray you really understand it this time.

from CA Immaculate Conception and Assumption

Let’s take the second citation first**. Mary, too, required a Savior. Like all other descendants of Adam, she was subject to the necessity of contracting original sin**. But by a special intervention of God, undertaken at the instant she was conceived, she was preserved from the stain of original sin and its consequences. She was therefore redeemed by the grace of Christ, but in a special way—by anticipation.

Consider an analogy: Suppose a man falls into a deep pit, and someone reaches down to pull him out. The man has been “saved” from the pit. Now imagine a woman walking along, and she too is about to topple into the pit, but at the very moment that she is to fall in, someone holds her back and prevents her. She too has been saved from the pit, but in an even better way: She was not simply taken out of the pit, she was prevented from getting stained by the mud in the first place. This is the illustration Christians have used for a thousand years to explain how Mary was saved by Christ. By receiving Christ’s grace at her conception, she had his grace applied to her before she was able to become mired in original sin and its stain.

Mary, was saved by God miraculously preventing her from falling in the first place.

The teaching of the immaculate conception does not deny that Mary was in need of being saved from the original sin of Adam. On the contrary. It teaches that Mary was saved from original sin most completely and uniquely.

Not so. Its your doctrines that are inconsistent as we are seeing with this doctrine that Mary was sinless.

I pray you can now see that you were mistaken. There is absolutely no inconsistentcy. Mary was under original sin. She was just saved in a unique manner.

I am not asking you to suddenly say, “oh yes, I see, the Catholics are right!” But I do pray that you can see that the doctrine itself is consistent, whether you agree with it or not.

I’ll repeat it. Saying Mary was sinless in no way negates the fact that she needed to be saved from original sin.

 

[MariaG]

Where did i say infants and the mentally handicapped are exceptions? How could they be if they inherit Adams sin nature?

Okay, so you believe that Romans is referring to original sin? And if you do, do you see that Mary would be included in this if you believe that?

Most non-Catholics, at least here on these boards, think those verses mean personal sin, because they do not believe in original sin which is why you get so many arguments that I do not believe are addressing your concerns.

And IF one does not believe in original sin, and IF one believes it refers to personal sin, the question of “what sin do infants have” becomes very valid. For if infants are an exception, then there clearly are exceptions.

However, since you seem to believe Romans refers to orginal sin, I pray that you can now see more clearly that Mary was not somehow exempt from original sin, but was in fact saved from it.

These words from the Catechism state it best.
“Mary benefited first of all and uniquely from Christ’s victory over sin: she was preserved from all stain of original sin”

JA4? Why do all of your quotes of our postings ahve that weird mis-link in front of them? Just curious…

probably during the cutting and pasting process JA4 is cutting off part of the quote marks, either at the beginning or the end.

Make sure all your posts start with an

and end with

If at the end of the post, it is usually the first bracket and backslash that get deleted and cause the problem. Been there,do that

 

[guanophore]

The first in order of importance for doctrine and practice for Christians are the Scriptures. Without the foundation of the Scriptures you don’t have real Christian doctrine or practice. I remember reading somewhere in the early church fathers etc that all doctrines must be grounded in the Scriptures. Sorry i can’t remember the source.
Even catholics want to be able to claim this is true for their doctrines as of first importance.

I don’t think so, ja4. Catholics value the Scripture highly, and we believe that ignorance of them is ignorance of Christ. However, we also know that the Faith was delivered to us by Jesus, and the Apostles upon whom the Church is built. These same scriptures that you uphold are the ones that instruct believers to brin g disputes to the Church. It is the Church, founded by Christ that is empowered and ordained by Him to settle disputes between believers. The written word cannot do this because in cannot hear the case and judge between people. This is why Jesus left people in charge instead of a book.

 

[guanophore]

Here is a small passage from this article:

“Mary is addressed as “full of grace” which shows that she must be in complete favor of God to have earned the fullness of God’s grace. This particular instance is a special one, **in which God chose Mary to be conceived sinless **to make her a house for God to dwell within.”

Since Scripture is about all we know of Mary where does it say in them that “God chose Mary to be conceived sinless”?

Claims like this need to be supported or what you have here is mere speculations with evidence.

ja4 I recommend that you refrain from promulgating falsehoods on the fora. It is against the forum rules. It is also against the rules for you to proselytize here. It is an error to say “scripture is all we know about Mary”. I am not sure who this royal “we” is that you keep mentioning, but persons belonging to the Apostolic faiths have much, much more knowledge about the faith that complements the sciptures. It also gets very old for you to keep calling the Catholic faith “mere speculations”. What is your goal?

 

[guanophore]

We agree that Jesus did not sin becasue of Who He is and His nature. Mary, howerever was a sinner being a daughter of Adam in which she inherited sin through her birth through her human parents. Do you agree that everyone of age today has sinned?

No. In the light of the requirements to define sin, some people do not meet them.

Then what of Romans 5:12 that says otherwise? Why then does your church baptize babies and the mentally handicapped if they are not guilty of sin?

Because there are two kinds of sin. Original sin is not “guilt” related. It is a consequence of the fall that humankind are separated from the grace that was present at creation. People are under the penalty of original sin, but are not “guilty” of the choices made by Adam and Eve.

Personal sin is that which people choose to commit. A mortal sin can only be commited if the person understands the wrongness of the action. The library has it more succinctly than I can do:

catholic.com/library/Mortal_Sin.asp

I don’t understand what you are saying here. Can you clarify?

 

[guanophore]

When i respond to people’ comments i don’t see my comments either so i copy and paste. Is there a way to have my comments appear with other comments on the “response” mode?

When I want to put other quotes in, I open the post in another window, click “quote”, then cut and past from there into the one I am replying. It is more complicated, but it looks much neater.

Are you saying then he is perfect?

Still subject to original sin until baptism. Surely we can agree that children and disabled people are not “perfect”. However, they may lack the understanding and recalcitrance necessary to qualify as “sinners”. This term implies that the person is active themselves in a state of sin.

So we do agree that all men are fallen i.e. sinners even though they may not have actually commited a sin in word, deed or thought?

Human Beings conceived after the fall inherit the consequence of the fall. I think it is misleading to refer to persons under the penalty of original sin to call them “sinners” because they did nothing to bring this upon themselves. They are not in a state of grace. Original sin is the state of being separated from God’s grace.

Why then does a person sin to begin with? Why is there such a powerful tendency to sin at all?

It is a mystery indeed about Adam and Eve. They were created without sin, yet chose to sin. Why? Pride? Lust of the eye, lust of the flesh? They wanted to be “like God, knowing good and evil”?

Concupiscence (the tendency in humankind toward sin) is a consequence of the fall. Although baptism washes away the penalty of original sin, and allows grace to return to the soul, we struggle throughout our lives battling the world, the flesh, and the devil.

 

[justasking4]

MariaG;3132160]

Quote:
Originally Posted by justasking4
Where did i say infants and the mentally handicapped are exceptions? How could they be if they inherit Adams sin nature?
MariaG
Okay, so you believe that Romans is referring to original sin? And if you do, do you see that Mary would be included in this if you believe that?

Most non-Catholics, at least here on these boards, think those verses mean personal sin, because they do not believe in original sin which is why you get so many arguments that I do not believe are addressing your concerns.

And IF one does not believe in original sin, and IF one believes it refers to personal sin, the question of “what sin do infants have” becomes very valid. For if infants are an exception, then there clearly are exceptions.

However, since you seem to believe Romans refers to orginal sin, I pray that you can now see more clearly that Mary was not somehow exempt from original sin, but was in fact saved from it.

These words from the Catechism state it best.
“Mary benefited first of all and uniquely from Christ’s victory over sin: she was preserved from all stain of original sin”

Where is the evidence-proof that Mary was “preserved from all stain of original sin”?
No one in the entire Scripture makes such a claim nor implies it.

 

[justasking4]

Babe its our religious teaching that she is and Jesus is the New Adam. Just ask God to show and tell you the Truth, please?

I ask you to study the Scriptures for your beliefs. How can God show me something like this if the Scriptures don’t teach it?

What would you say if i did take your approach --“Just ask God to show and tell you the Truth,” and He told me it was not true?

 

[guanophore]

I ask you to study the Scriptures for your beliefs. How can God show me something like this if the Scriptures don’t teach it?

What would you say if i did take your approach --“Just ask God to show and tell you the Truth,” and He told me it was not true?

I have to go with you on this one, ja4. You made a great point on a post a while back that this advice is very similar to that of the Mormons who encourage one to look for the “burning in the bosom”. Furthermore, I think you are very passionate about your faith, and I am convinced that you have asked God many times to show and tell you the truth, and you believe He has already done so. You have made it clear that, if you cannot see it in the scriptures, then it is not God’s revealed truth.

Having said that, and knowing that you don’t find any Marian doctrines in your Bible, I am curious about why you are here on this thread. You believe the Catholic Teachings about Mary are a bunch of bunkum…so why involve yourself in it?

 

[Truthstalker]

I ask you to study the Scriptures for your beliefs. How can God show me something like this if the Scriptures don’t teach it?

What would you say if i did take your approach --“Just ask God to show and tell you the Truth,” and He told me it was not true?

Where do you find the phrase “original sin” in the Bible? It seems you accept this particular Catholic teaching but not the other. Please explain your inconsistency.

 

[NotWorthy]

Instead of praying about it or relying on luck study what the Scriptures teach about this. One thing you will not find in them is any reference to Mary being the New Eve. No writer of the NT ever says such a thing about her like that.

Do any of the NT writers bring up that Joseph (Jacob’s son) is a type of Joseph (Jesus’ father)? Does this make it false?

Besides, I thought the NT writers were trying to deal mainly with errors in the Early Church, except of course for the Gospels and Acts.

 

[justasking4]

Where do you find the phrase “original sin” in the Bible? It seems you accept this particular Catholic teaching but not the other. Please explain your inconsistency.

Whatever you want to call it i.e. original sin in catholic theology i go by Romans 5:12 and other passages in scripture that speaks of the fallness of man that still has its effects in all men and women today. We “inherit” this sin nature from Adam and this explains why all men have a bent towards sin in which on their own they powerless to stop.

Does this differ from the doctrine of orignal sin and if so how?

 

[Jerry-Jet]

Tell me something justasking4:

If we inherrit an inclination towards sin that we are powerless to stop–even though we had no part in committing Adam and Eve’s sin–

Why is it that Jesus if He were truely man would also not inherrit it?

Why do you think Jesus didn’t inherrit it?

The Immaculate Conception of Mary provides a logical answer for this question.

How do you answer it?

How can Jesus be truely man and truely God and come from that which is of sin?

 

[Deana]

I ask you to study the Scriptures for your beliefs. How can God show me something like this if the Scriptures don’t teach it?

What would you say if i did take your approach --“Just ask God to show and tell you the Truth,” and He told me it was not true?

He won’t tell you what you think He will tell you.