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savedsinner
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If Mark Shea’s article confused you then you also might enjoy this article.
New Insights into Sacred Tradition
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New Insights into Sacred Tradition
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runandsew
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Sacred Tradition is the common teaching, common life, common worship and of the one, holy, catholic and apostolic Church. Like all tradition, it is a thing “handed down” from one generation to the next. The difference is that Sacred Tradition is handed down from the apostles to whom Christ said, “He who listens to you listens to me, and he who listens to me listens to him who sent me” (Luke 10:16). That is why Sacred Tradition is not the same thing as the “human tradition” which Christ elsewhere warned his disciples against treating as the word of God (Mark 7:8). For it is not human in origin, but comes from God Incarnate. This is why St. Paul writes in 2 Thessalonians 2:15 that we must “stand firm and hold to the traditions which you were taught by us, either by word of mouth or by letter” . The early Church functioned in just the way St. Paul describes. In Acts 2:42, Luke tells us the early converts to the apostolic preaching "devoted themselves to the apostles’ teaching * and fellowship , to the breaking of bread and the prayers" . Scripture therefore is the written aspect of the Sacred Tradition which comes down to us from the apostles, but not the whole of the Tradition. As just one example, Scripture does not itself tell us what books are to be included in the Bible. The only way we know this information is because the Sacred Tradition of the Church tells us.*
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wildleafblower
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The blessed Mother of our Lord Jesus Christ never sinned. I just located this beautiful APOSTOLIC PENITENTIARY DECREE according to which is granted a daily Plenary Indulgence which recently took place (December 8, 2007).
vatican.va/roman_curia/tribunals/apost_penit/documents/rc_trib_appen_doc_20071121_decreto-lourdes_en.html
http://www.vatican.va/roman_curia/t...ib_appen_doc_20071121_decreto-lourdes_en.html
I love her.
vatican.va/roman_curia/tribunals/apost_penit/documents/rc_trib_appen_doc_20071121_decreto-lourdes_en.html
http://www.vatican.va/roman_curia/t...ib_appen_doc_20071121_decreto-lourdes_en.html
I love her.
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NotWorthy
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Very good point! That’s **exactly **why I can’t be a Protestant!
Oh, no doubt God saves. But don’t you see yourself in Israel, specifically Judges? And if it is just my thinking, I don’t think there’s really anything wrong with that, as long as it doesn’t contradict Catholic Doctrine. If it helps me to understand our roles in Salvation (and yes, we do have roles, God’s plan of Salvation is not one giant “Puppet Show”), then so be it.
I wasn’t aware they are assertions. I thought that I presented them as opinions, hence I don’t need to cite any specific sources.
My reasons for these opinions are not by reading any specific document, mind you. It comes from years of living here in the Bible Belt where every Protestant believes all Catholics are going to hell (yes, I am exaggerating, just to prove my point) and they feel the need to discuss their theologies with me to prove to me why Catholicism is wrong.
If one person describes their theology uniquely, then I don’t brush entire Protestants, or even singular sects, with that opinion. But if numerous people present the same arguments in the same light, then I don’t think I’m being very biased with my opinions.
Now, mind you, my Protestants Apologist down here in Texas are mostly Baptist, Methodist, Church of Christ, Pentecostals, and non-denominational. That, admittedly, would sway my opinion on the rest of Protestantism. Guilty as charged.
But these Forums do leave room for opinion, right?
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NotWorthy
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By focusing on the Catholic Doctrine.
What about all those "past, perfect, participles, etc. etc. that comes with “Kecharitomone”.
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justasking4
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If this is the case this is reading into the text your doctrine which really warps the defintion of the word. It makes the word mean something it does not mean.
i’m not a greek scholar and the works i have who have defined the meanings of the words in the NT greek (done by greek scholars in the language itself) don’t either make mention of any sinlessness on the part of Mary.
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Truthstalker
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This works against you. Putting faith in the Church instead of in Christ is problematic, which was my point. Are you arguing your way out of being Catholic? Not intentionally.Very good point! That’s **exactly **why I can’t be a Protestant!
No, because I’ve read Hebrews. There is a New Covenant. The Old was a shadow. Now we have a great high priest. This covenant is forever.
(
I hear this too much from Catholics:
predestination = robots/puppets = no free will. Predestination is a Catholic doctrine. Reclaim your theological heritage. Learn what you believe.
In general, yes. With often admirable moderation, yes. In charity, yes.But these Forums do leave room for opinion, right?
You are packing an enormous amount of freight into a grammatical analysis. That in itself should be a warning.
Nonetheless, forensic justification is as good an explanation as the IC from the text.
Bring in the logic from the 1854 declaration. That should be the basis of a Catholic argument, not personal opinion or speculation. Expecially not personal interpretation - you should leave that to the Protestants.
Most Protestants are as ignorant of what they themselves believe as are most Catholics. There are education problems on both sides of the Tiber. I, myself, am a case in point. I know just about nothing, and the more I read, the less I seem to know.
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NotWorthy
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Who said I was putting my faith in the Church INSTEAD of Christ. Good Lord, who would do a thing like that?!? That’s impossible when you consider that the Church is the Bride of Christ and, in marriage, the Two have become One. What does Jesus say when Saul is persecuting His Church? “Saul, Saul, why are you persecuting me?”
I may have mis-interpreted what you said, but you said I should follow Christ and not some “Created thing”. I think all Protestant Churches have been created by men, for various reasons, which is why I’d never be Protestant.
The Mosaic Covenant was continuous, up until Christ’s Death and Ascension. Even when the Israelites fell into sin and Apostasy, they were still bound by the Mosaic Covenant. That’s why they were still subject to the curses under the Covenant, those of exile and death, etc.
The Old Covenant is a shadow of the New Covenant. Shadows represent the true form, although they are incomplete. That’s why I can see Israel’s cycles of sin and repenting similar to moi’.
Wow, and people think Catholics are haughty and arrogant.
I didn’t know I was talking of “Pre-destination”, which is a Catholic Doctrine. But the “puppet show” comment is directed at the common Calvinistic thought of Double Pre-Destination, which is certainly not Catholic. If I said, “Pre-Destination”, then I’m terribly sorry.
Is this a good time to bring up that “Reclaim your theological heritage. Learn what you believe” comment?
I don’t know first hand about the grammatical break down of the word, Kecharitomone - I guess you could say It’s all Greek to me! But, from what I’ve heard, the word strongly implies that the “favor” or Grace Mary has was there from the beginning. It didn’t come later in life, as evidenced with Stephen in Acts.
I wasn’t aware the Church forbade it. I thought She just forbade interpretation that contradicted with His Teachings. But I do appreciate the humor, my friend!Bring in the logic from the 1854 declaration. That should be the basis of a Catholic argument, not personal opinion or speculation. Expecially not personal interpretation - you should leave that to the Protestants.
Do you recall Thomas Aquinas words, the day he gave up writing “Summa Theologica (sic)”?
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justasking4
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i read the last article in your links. In the last paragraph it says this:
The task is to determine what constitutes authentic tradition. How can we know which traditions are apostolic and which are merely human? The answer is the same as how we know which scriptures are apostolic and which are merely human—by listening to the magisterium or teaching authority of Christ’s Church. Without the Catholic Church’s teaching authority, we would not know with certainty which purported books of Scripture are authentic. If the Church revealed to us the canon of Scripture, it can also reveal to us the “canon of Tradition” by establishing which traditions have been passed down from the apostles. After all, Christ promised that the gates of hell would not prevail against the Church (Matt. 16:18) and the New Testament itself declares the Church to be “the pillar and foundation of the truth” (1 Tim. 3:15).
How does it reveal the “canon of Tradition”?
How does you church go about “establishing which traditions have been passed down from the apostles.”?
Is this speaking of something beyond what the apostles wrote in the NT and if so what are these traditions?
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guanophore
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C’mon, ja4. Disingenuous means that you are not really sincerely seeking answers to these questions. You have already made up your mind that the Catholic Church has been penetrated by “false teachers” and that what we call Sacred Tradition is really the “speculations of men”. You have already stated that your purpose in bringing up this question over and over is to get Catholics to see that they have been taught error.
justasking4 said:
justasking4 said:
You have made it clear repeatedly that you believe Scipture is the only source. You are here to get Catholics to confront and depose their unbiblical false teachers.justasking4 said:
justasking4 said:
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Truthstalker
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MariaG, are you out there??? Ok from the storm?
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MariaG
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Hi,
Yeah, I am okay. We weathered things. Lots of storms around my area. Oregon Coast. Hurricane force winds (not the latest one), and big storms.
I have not read all the posts since, several pages worth. I miss the forums:crying: but just don’t seem to have as much time anymore:crying:
Ahh, well.
I will say the post that caught my eye was your one with this statement.
I see NotWorthy answered you but must say, this is probably one of the biggest mistakes people make about Catholics.
Catholics talk of their faith in Christ and faith in the Church interchangably. Christ is the Church. Faith in the Church is faith in Christ. Many like you seem to think it is putting faith in the Church instead of Christ and nothing is farther than the truth than that.
In fact, I have been in conversations with Cradle Catholics that when they make the statement “My faith in the Church”, I ask them to explain what they mean, because maybe as a revert, I was reading this incorrectly.
But each and every time, the cradle Catholics I speak to in person, say things like, “Christ is the Church. How can I not have complete faith in the Church when He is the the Church?” Being seriously confused to think that people would ever think that their phrase, “faith in the Church” could ever be mistaken to mean faith in an institution or building or even the men who lead the Church because while they may have faith that the Holy Spirit will lead and guide the Church as a whole, individuals will frequently fail.
And no matter how many times I explain that here in these forums, it is a matter of faith, a truth revealed by the Holy Spirit that is difficult to understand until one sees that Christ IS the Church.
The interconnectivity, Christ, His Church, the “communion of saints” is truly an awesome thing to comprehend!
If no one minds, I don’t think I will truly “catch up” but just jump in to where the discussion currently is. Or direct me to a general or specific area in the past anyone would like me to revisit
And thanks for asking
God Bless,
Maria
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NotWorthy
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The Communion of Saints is one of the most under-appreciated (by those outside the Church) of the gifts Christ left His Church. And sadly, it is one of the greatest gifts that our Protestant brothers didn’t take with them to share when they broke away.
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Good_Fella
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That is true. So we mustn’t confuse the infallibility of the Church in matters of faith and morals with the impeccabilty of the attitudes and behaviour of the men who are appointed shepherds of the Church.
“I came to you in weakness and fear, and with much trembling. My message and my preaching were not with wise and persuasive words, but with a demonstration of the Spirit’s power, so that your faith might not rest on men’s wisdom, but on God’s power. This is what we speak, not words taught us by human wisdom but in words taught by the Spirit, expressing spiritual truths in spiritual words.” {1Cor 2, 3-5, 13}
Paul would have us understand that by putting our faith in his teachings, we are essentially putting our faith in the words of the Spirit who was sent by the Lord. When we put our faith in the teachings of the Church, we put our faith in the teachings of Christ. Paul goes on to say in this text that those who reject his teachings, the doctrines of the Church, reject truths which come from God in the course of revelation. Worldy minded people cannot accept these teachings which come to us by the Spirit of God. Only the more spiritual minded are open to the teachings of the Church and can genuinely accept them, knowing they originate with the wisdom of God, not the speculations of men through their rhetorical devices.
Indeed, Paul explains that what the ministers of the Church teach is not by human wisdom, but by the Holy Spirit. And the grace of God can overpower the weakness of men so that they faithfully and reliably exercise their teaching office, in spite of their shortcomings and failures. The Spirit of truth, promised and sent by our Lord (Jn 14,16; 16, 13), enlightens and guides our shepherds to interpret the truths revealed to us by God in the Church’s deposit of faith. Jesus founded his Church on the Apostles in order to mediate more fully God’s divine revelation. Our Lord’s design can never be thwarted by occasional instances of false or corrupt behaviour on the part of the Church’s episcopates and clergy.
Pax vobiscum
Good Fella
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Brady
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I see this discussion becoming rather heated and totally in the wrong spirit.
Let me state that I am a catholic and my father is a protestant deacon, and the man I have more respect for than any other.
That being said, I am an addict on the subjects of religion and religion in history (including the acts of the protestant church against the catholic) which we dont hear about much in the USA
The sad truth is according to Paul this type of anger is in no way chritian, and we are in no way allowed to judge others for their beliefs. I promise you we are all wrong some ways.
Now, to the discussion at hand. Mary’s lack of sin. I belief Mary was a virgin until Christ’s birth-I belief she was without sin until his birth(it is possible thru Hebrew lineage to trace sin only thru the father however) Now as to if she sinned later or had other children, does this really demand heated debate. catholics depend on Dogma for these beliefs and neither is proveable or unprovable on the Bible alone. Whatever the case it does not change our joint faith in any way whatever. Surely the Lord of all the earth will do right.
The one account I would like to take issue with, was the gentleman who implyed Christ could not be tempted. Of corse he could, if not then the life we could not copy was pointless,the accomplishment reduced, and most importantly the victory not quite utter and complete. (which I assure you it was)
And we can not group Christ with any verse in the bible apart from him. He is a unique case. HE is the Lord God Almighty.
And yes the handicapped sin. I know myself and while not the worst person I know-at my very best I am a wretched example of a good christian. I am convinced we probably sin in the womb
Let me state that I am a catholic and my father is a protestant deacon, and the man I have more respect for than any other.
That being said, I am an addict on the subjects of religion and religion in history (including the acts of the protestant church against the catholic) which we dont hear about much in the USA
The sad truth is according to Paul this type of anger is in no way chritian, and we are in no way allowed to judge others for their beliefs. I promise you we are all wrong some ways.
Now, to the discussion at hand. Mary’s lack of sin. I belief Mary was a virgin until Christ’s birth-I belief she was without sin until his birth(it is possible thru Hebrew lineage to trace sin only thru the father however) Now as to if she sinned later or had other children, does this really demand heated debate. catholics depend on Dogma for these beliefs and neither is proveable or unprovable on the Bible alone. Whatever the case it does not change our joint faith in any way whatever. Surely the Lord of all the earth will do right.
The one account I would like to take issue with, was the gentleman who implyed Christ could not be tempted. Of corse he could, if not then the life we could not copy was pointless,the accomplishment reduced, and most importantly the victory not quite utter and complete. (which I assure you it was)
And we can not group Christ with any verse in the bible apart from him. He is a unique case. HE is the Lord God Almighty.
And yes the handicapped sin. I know myself and while not the worst person I know-at my very best I am a wretched example of a good christian. I am convinced we probably sin in the womb
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NotWorthy
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Brady, are you aware of the Church’s teaching on sin? What constitutes a sin?And yes the handicapped sin. I know myself and while not the worst person I know-at my very best I am a wretched example of a good christian. I am convinced we probably sin in the womb
I ask this because this statement I quoted above implies that you do not know what makes an act sinful. If you are aware of the Church’s teaching on sin, as explained in the Catechism, then tell me how the severely mentally handicapped can sin or the fetus can sin?
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Brady
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Are the mentally handicapped always handicapped? What do they understand? Have not ALL sinned and come short of the glory of GOD?
That being said my son is severly autistic and YES YES YES in his limited way he still sins. Though there is no doubt in my mind the Lord makes allowances for this, and nowhere is it said all men are judged alike. The cool thing about being God is you can do whatever you like
That being said my son is severly autistic and YES YES YES in his limited way he still sins. Though there is no doubt in my mind the Lord makes allowances for this, and nowhere is it said all men are judged alike. The cool thing about being God is you can do whatever you like
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NotWorthy
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I thought this was the crux of the matter (and it seems we’ve come full circle). Jesus was Man, and He didn’t sin. Catholics teach that His mother didn’t sin. Some of the severely handicapped could not have sinned, babies that die in infancy could not have sinned.
Sin is knowing that you are doing something that is sinful. Just because your son may be able to grasp that what he is doing is wrong (BTW, my son is PDD, a form of autism), not all the mentally handicapped are able to grasp this.That being said my son is severly autistic and YES YES YES in his limited way he still sins. Though there is no doubt in my mind the Lord makes allowances for this, and nowhere is it said all men are judged alike. The cool thing about being God is you can do whatever you like
You also said that some babies sin while within the womb. This can’t be true according to the Church’s teaching regarding the knowledge of sin in order to sin.
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Mannyfit75
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It’s so** typical for Protestants to separate the Church and Jesus Christ**… shame on them…
Anyways, since the Church declared Mary to be sinless, she is. That’s what the Church always believed for over 2,000 yrs. The belief that she wasn’t is **completely foreign **to ancient Christianity.
Anyways, since the Church declared Mary to be sinless, she is. That’s what the Church always believed for over 2,000 yrs. The belief that she wasn’t is **completely foreign **to ancient Christianity.
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Brady
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Yes Jesus was man and didnt sin,he was also God. I dont have that position. As for the church’s teaching on sin in the womb (lol) well I’d like their information.
I personally believe even a litle sin is possible for the handicapped. It follows biblical teaching. I have seen it personaly. However if I am wrong all the better. If not they are a gift from God and have a dispensation of grace like no other.
So…It’s All Good.
I personally believe even a litle sin is possible for the handicapped. It follows biblical teaching. I have seen it personaly. However if I am wrong all the better. If not they are a gift from God and have a dispensation of grace like no other.
So…It’s All Good.
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