Could Mary have sinned?

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Could God have dwelt in the womb of a sinful woman?

God set Mary aside to be used in a special way.

One of the “nicknames” we give to Mary, is “Ark of the New Covenant.”

The OT passages on the Holy of Holies, the Ark of the Covenant, the Tabernacle, all foreshadow Mary’s perfection and holiness.

If the OT commands that the “dwelling place of God” deserved such holiness and preservation, certainly the womb that bore Jesus, the “dwelling place of God,” would deserve the same.
 
After the apostles died, who claims to be an apostle after them?
Does Clement or any church father claim to be an apostle?
My understanding is that the Apostles were all chosen by Jesus. They commissioned Bishops to take their place. The Apostolic Teaching is passed on through the Bishops.

I am not sure what this has to do with the topic, perhaps you are just trying to derail another thread? The Bishops all venerated Mary from the beginning, and have designed prayers and liturgy to express their concept of her holiness. If you think this is a Roman invention, I invite you to explore the Orthodox, who are separated from Rome, but have this same teaching from Apostolic Succession.
If thats the case then why does Paul in Colossians 3:16 write these words:
Let the word of Christ richly dwell within you, with all wisdom teaching and admonishing one another with psalms and hymns and spiritual songs, singing with thankfulness in your hearts to God.
ja4, it is only your blinders that narrows “word of God” means the book in front of you. Catholics believe that the Word of God is Christ, and that He manifests His word in Holy Scripture, as well as prayer, liturgy, creed, and many other sources. The word can dwell richly in many forms. Scripture being one of the highest, of course.
How does a catholic let the words of Christ (which are found only in the Scriptures) if He never intended people to learn His way of life by a book?
Catholics know that the Word is a person, and though knowledge of Him is found in scripture, He is not limited to them. Mary sang her canticle in response to the greeting of her cousing Elizabeth. It does have some scripture in it, but some of the words come straight through her from the Holy Spirit. The Word of Christ was dwelling in her richly, long before one word of the NT had ever been penned. That is because she was the very first CAtholic! 👍
Why do the Scriptures teach so much on how we are to live the Christian life?
ja4, you just seem intent on derailing this thread, and going further and further off topic! The scriptures teach so much on how we are to live because they are, as the early fathers testify “the memoirs of the Apostles”. They represent Apostolic Teaching. Luke represents Apostolic Teaching when he parallels the story of Mary to that of the Ark of the Covenant. Apostolic teaching is not limited to scripture, but it is accurately represented there.
Or take what Scripture should be our focus in Colossians 3:1-4:
Therefore if you have been raised up with Christ, keep seeking the things above, where Christ is, seated at the right hand of God.
2 Set your mind on the things above, not on the things that are on earth.
3 For you have died and your life is hidden with Christ in God.
4 When Christ, who is our life, is revealed, then you also will be revealed with Him in glory.
Absolutely! This is why, when we reflect on Jesus’ life through the eyes of Mary in the rosary, we end up at the right hand of God!
There is no way a Christian could have known these things without a “book”.
This is not the case, ja4, as obviously, people did these things before the NT was written. Mary was doing these things when she was greeted by the angel “hail, Full of Grace”.
There is absolutely no doubt that the Scriptures, a book, does teach us how to live the Christian life. These “books” are inspired-inerrant and meant for Christians to know very very well. The sad thing is that so many don’t and believe as you do.
I do believe that scripture has much to say about living the Christian life, and that the scriptures are inspired and inerrant. I just don’t believe that they were meant to be separated from the Sacred Tradition that produced them. Mary could never have fathomed the horrible manner in which she is treated these days by so called “disciples” of her Son. When she walked the earth with them, all of the Apostles showed her the greatest respect, after her Son, who honored her according to the commandment without any fault.
 
guanophore;3301362]
Originally Posted by justasking4
After the apostles died, who claims to be an apostle after them?
Does Clement or any church father claim to be an apostle?
guanophore
My understanding is that the Apostles were all chosen by Jesus. They commissioned Bishops to take their place. The Apostolic Teaching is passed on through the Bishops.
I am not sure what this has to do with the topic, perhaps you are just trying to derail another thread? The Bishops all venerated Mary from the beginning, and have designed prayers and liturgy to express their concept of her holiness. If you think this is a Roman invention, I invite you to explore the Orthodox, who are separated from Rome, but have this same teaching from Apostolic Succession.
What writings from 2nd century bishop shows a veneration of Mary?
 
guanophore;3301362]
Originally Posted by justasking4
Or take what Scripture should be our focus in Colossians 3:1-4:
Therefore if you have been raised up with Christ, keep seeking the things above, where Christ is, seated at the right hand of God.
2 Set your mind on the things above, not on the things that are on earth.
3 For you have died and your life is hidden with Christ in God.
4 When Christ, who is our life, is revealed, then you also will be revealed with Him in glory.
guanophore
Absolutely! This is why, when we reflect on Jesus’ life through the eyes of Mary in the rosary, we end up at the right hand of God!
What did Christians do for the 1st thousand years before the rosary was invented? How did Christians know to do what Colossians exhorts us to do?
 
graceandglory;3301249]Could God have dwelt in the womb of a sinful woman?
Yes. When Christ He “emptied Himself” which allowed Him to live among humans without destroying them.
God set Mary aside to be used in a special way.
True
One of the “nicknames” we give to Mary, is “Ark of the New Covenant.”
The Scriptures never do.
The OT passages on the Holy of Holies, the Ark of the Covenant, the Tabernacle, all foreshadow Mary’s perfection and holiness.
This is not true. The Scriptures never teach this about her.
If the OT commands that the “dwelling place of God” deserved such holiness and preservation, certainly the womb that bore Jesus, the “dwelling place of God,” would deserve the same.
Mary’s womb is not God’s dwelling place and is never spoken of like this. It is far better to say this:
And the Word became flesh, and dwelt among us, and we saw His glory, glory as of the only begotten from the Father, full of grace and truth.

John 1:14

This is the way we should think about this and not Mary out to be some kind of ark.
 
Mary’s womb is not God’s dwelling place and is never spoken of like this. It is far better to say this:
And the Word became flesh, and dwelt among us, and we saw His glory, glory as of the only begotten from the Father, full of grace and truth.

John 1:14

This is the way we should think about this and not Mary out to be some kind of ark.
In your opinion, but not mine.
 
What did Christians do for the 1st thousand years before the rosary was invented? How did Christians know to do what Colossians exhorts us to do?
The Word of God dwells richly in all the prayers of the Church, especially the liturgy. For those that could not read, there was public reading of scripture, and many non-verbal aids such as frescoes, stained glass, statues, and paintings.

Before the rosary, the faithful prayed all 150 psalms every day. The Psalms are considered Jesus’ prayer book, and was used by the Essenes before the Apostles.
 
Not my opinion but its Scripture. There is no such scripture to support the idea she was some kind of ark type.
Wrong. There is nothing in scripture that denies this concept. The very Church that gave us Scripture teaches us this. I’ll take the Church’s word over yours. Any day.
 
Not my opinion but its Scripture. There is no such scripture to support the idea she was some kind of ark type.
Hey, justasking4:

There is no scripture to support the idea that Scripture is the end-all, be-all of what a Christian believes.

Robert
 
Why do the Scriptures teach so much on how we are to live the Christian life? For example, again in Colossians 3:8-9 he exhorts Christians in one aspect of how to live the Christian life when he writes these words:
8 But now you also, put them all aside: anger, wrath, malice, slander, and abusive speech from your mouth.
9 Do not lie to one another, since you laid aside the old self with its evil practices,
And that “book”, justasking4, was what we commonly call the Septuagint. Or the OT of the Christian, i.e. CATHOLIC, Church of the late 4th and early 5th centuries.:rolleyes:

St Paul is referring to Jewish writings, not to the “bible.”:yup:

It’s Biblical History 101, my friend.

Robert
 
Rbt Southwell;3303600]

Originally Posted by justasking4
Where then can i find these “teaching of the Apostles” not found in Scripture?
Do you also know which apostles taught something that is not in Scripture? What exactly are these teachings?
Rbt Southwell
Where can I find in Scripture that everything Jesus taught was collected CENTURIES after His death and resurrection for Christians to read and debate endlessly?
The teachings of Christ were not collected centuries after His resurrection. If anything the gospels were finished before the close of the 1st century.
Rbt Southwell
Do you know which views of Jesus’ teachings as reported in the Gospels is the correct one?
All 4 are the correct view.
Do we count how many Gospels quote His parables and go from there?
No. We use all the 4 gospels to get a good picture of His earthly ministry.
What exactly are His teachings??
The NT. Study the NT and you will find them.
He didn’t leave a journal.
He may not have but His disciples did. Its called the NT.
 
Rbt Southwell;3303604]
Originally Posted by justasking4
Not my opinion but its Scripture. There is no such scripture to support the idea she was some kind of ark type.
Rbt Southwell
Hey, justasking4:
There is no scripture to support the idea that Scripture is the end-all, be-all of what a Christian believes.
Where do we find the inspired-inerrant Word of God if not the Scriptures? Because of this, there is no other binding teaching on the Christian. Nothing has greater authortity than the scriptures; no man, church etc can be greater than the Scriptures.
 
Originally Posted by justasking4
Not my opinion but its Scripture. There is no such scripture to support the idea she was some kind of ark type.

sodak
Wrong. There is nothing in scripture that denies this concept. The very Church that gave us Scripture teaches us this. I’ll take the Church’s word over yours. Any day.
Is there some kind of offical church document that says Mary is some kind of ark type?
 
Luke tells us she gave a sin offering:

Luke 2:22 And when the days of her purification according to the law of Moses were accomplished, they brought him to Jerusalem, to present him to the Lord;

Mary brought two turtledoves, one for a burnt offering and one for a sin offering.

Do you forget that Jesus himself was baptized by John with the baptism of repentence? Is this proof that Jesus sinned? Mary was purified according to the law of Moses for the same reason that Jesus was cleansed by the baptism of repentence: it was fitting for all righteousness.

Mary was certainly a special person and should be called blessed but to think that she could have gone through life without sin would not be likely. There is no Scriptural basis at all for this.

There is. Genesis 3,15 and Luke 1,28.

catholic-legate.com/dialogues/ic.html

< “God could not provide Jesus with a singular, unfallen human nature and STILL have Jesus have some connection to the rest of us. However, by applying the merits of Christ to His mother “outside of time” (and so Baptizing her into Christ in advance), Jesus was able to both come from the line of Adam (through Mary) AND take on an undamaged humanity, like that of Adam (and Eve) before the Fall. And, indeed, this was clearly God’s plan from the start, per Genesis 3:15, which places “the woman” (a New Eve) in opposition to the serpent, bringing the Messiah out of that - the Seed of the woman pitted against the seed of the serpent. Otherwise, Jesus would not have taken on a sinless and uncorrupted human nature, but our fallen nature, and so He could not have been the New Adam, but a fallen son of Adam like all the rest of us. In this, one must also keep in mind that the sin which plunged humanity into darkness was that of Adam, not of Eve. Eve did sin first; but until Adam, as head of the human family, joined her in sin (instead of remaining faithful and interceding for her), humanity as a whole was not cut off from God. This is the problem which the New Adam came to repair. And, since woman was not the cause of mankind’s final break with God, God takes the creation of woman and re-builds the human race from her (a New Eve --Mary), using her to bring the New Adam (the God-man) into the world, which, in the very same dynamic, makes this New Eve’s sinlessness possible.” >

< “First of all, in Luke 1:28 (10 verses BEFORE she gives her “yes” in Luke 1:38) Mary is called “Kecharitomenae” --“Full of grace” or, more properly, “She who is perfectly graced.” This could not be possible unless Mary was already sinless prior to the angel’s arrival --that is, before her “yes” to God. Likewise, if the humanities of both Mary and Jesus Himself were “deified” (“sanctified”) at the time of Christ’s conception, then this means a) That Jesus drew His humanity from a fallen source and, even more problematically, b) that mankind, in the prototypes of Mary and Jesus, WAS NOT redeemed by the INCARNATE Son (the God-man), but by the Son INDEPENDENTLY of His Incarnation!!! And, if this is the case, then the Incarnation would not be necessary at all. Rather, the eternal Son could have remained in Heaven and “zapped” everyone on earth with sinlessness from there. 🙂 However, that’s obviously not what we believe. We do not believe that Mary became sinless via the eternal Son’s (spiritual) Presence entering her womb, nor do we believe that Jesus’ own humanity became sinless because of the eternal Son’s “taking on” of it. Rather, we believe that the God-man (the Incarnate Christ --the New Adam) redeems humanity and we believe that this happened because 1) the saving merits of the God-man were applied to His intended mother outside of time / in advance (rendering her sinless), and that Jesus took His own sinless humanity from her - that is, Jesus also “redeemed” His own humanity in advance (in redeeming His mother’s) by applying the merits of own His Incarnation to His mother, and then taking that sinless humanity from her.” >
 
Where do we find the inspired-inerrant Word of God if not the Scriptures? Because of this, there is no other binding teaching on the Christian. Nothing has greater authortity than the scriptures; no man, church etc can be greater than the Scriptures.
Do you realize that you are derailing this thread, posting off topic when you are proselytizing your Sola Scriptura? Not only are you breaking the rules about staying on topic, but you are breaking the rules against promoting your private agenda. It is a mystery how a person could come to a Catholic forum, and hope to evangelize Catholics by disrespecting them.🤷
 
Do you realize that you are derailing this thread, posting off topic when you are proselytizing your Sola Scriptura? Not only are you breaking the rules about staying on topic, but you are breaking the rules against promoting your private agenda. It is a mystery how a person could come to a Catholic forum, and hope to evangelize Catholics by disrespecting them.🤷
:dancing: 👋 :hypno:
 
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