Could Mary have sinned?

[anthony022071]

I have taken the liberty of putting part of your quotes in red so that you may read them.

**It seems you didn’t even read what you quoted. I have pointed out to you by emphasizing what they had to say.

As for Origen, Hilary and Basil, I have already posted quotes from all of them saying just the opposite of what you claim. Tradition that is not supported by Scripture is false. What you posted proves that!!!**

The first quote was from an Arian heretic,as you should have noticed. The other men all belonged to the Catholic Church. Clement mentions the divine tradition,and Origen says we must believe the teaching which is from the succession of the Church. Origen,Hilary and Basil all believed in what Catholics believe about Mary. They did not say that tradition which is not supported by scripture is false. See the quotes in posts 783,806,and 811.

 

[Mannyfit75]

MannyFit

Mary couldn’t have known very much about Jesus. Remember what heppened when they left Him accidentally and then had to search for Him for three days before they found Him?

Mary was troubled when they left Jesus. It was not intentional. They thought Jesus was with their kinsfolks and aquintainances. They came to seek Jesus and found him in the temple.

Luke 2:48 And when they saw him, they were amazed: and his mother said unto him, Son, why hast thou thus dealt with us? behold, thy father and I have sought thee sorrowing. 49) And he said unto them, How is it that ye sought me? wist ye not that I must be about my Father’s business?

**Jesus was twelve years old. It is apparent, at the time she did not fully understand Jesus’ mission. As we both know, Jesus went with his parents and was obedient to them, and Mary kept this all in his heart.

The problem with using this verse, you only took one account of the Luke and think this is some short of a sin. I don’t think so. Mary was seeking Jesus anxiously. You also have to keep in mind, Mary is only human. She doesn’t have an infinite mind. Her mind is finite. I do believe in due time, Mary understood the mission of her son.

On another note, compared when Jesus was crucified. The Apostles and other disciples (except John) left Jesus. Mary remained with her son, Jesus Christ. When Jesus was twelve, Mary and Joseph thought Jesus was with his kinsfolk. When they found out that Jesus was not with them, they seek him out? Why do you suppose his parents seek Jesus?

Because of love. They love Jesus. Would not a father and mother yearn to seek a lost son? When a child is left alone, they could be kidnapped, captured, or killed. That is why Mary and Joseph seek Jesus to find him. That is love my friend. That is a personal relationship. Second, what authority do you have to doubt the mother’s love for her son? Her own flesh and blood?

Tell me, Old Scholar? Did Mary abandon Jesus? Nope. Could she have sinned? She could not she didn’t. She cooperated with God’s grace and acted with his will not to sin.

Christians as a whole should respond to God’s grace and not to break his commandments and ordinances.**

 

[Mannyfit75]

Do you believe Christ and God are equals? Did not Christ say that His Father was greater than He? Didn’t Christ say that only the Father knew certain things? Does Christ sit at the right hand of the Father or are they the same being?

I believe Jesus is both God and Man. He is the Word of God, through him all things were made. Without him, nothing came into being.

Reading the Scriptures will help you understand the Trinity much better. It is all there but must be sought with faith. The church defined th relationship as a “Trinity” but the facts are all there.

**
The first recorded use of the word “Trinity” in Christian theology was in about AD 180 by Theophilus of Antioch (Catholic Bishop/ Patriarch) who used it.

The concept came to be called the “Trinity” in later years. The word comes from “Trinitas,” a Latin abstract noun that means “three-ness,” “the property of occurring three at once” or “three are one.” The Greek term used for the Christian Trinity, “Τριάς” (“Trias,” gen. “Triados”) means “a set of three” or “the number three,”[5] and has given the English word triad.

Tertullian, a Latin theologian who wrote in the early third century, is credited with using the words “Trinity” and “person” to explain that the Father, Son and Holy Spirit were “one in essence— not one in Person.”[9]

About a century later, in AD 325, the** Council of Nicea established the doctrine of the Trinity as orthodoxy and adopted the Nicene Creed** that described Christ as “God of God, Light of Light, very God of very God, begotten, not made, being of one substance (homoousios) with the Father.”

If I read Scripture for the first time, I would think Trinity is in not Biblical because it is not explicit in the Bible. However, I know the Trinity because of the Church’s teaching and Church Council, especially the documents that was stated in the Council of Nicea in 325 AD. I had to look not just in Scripture but Church Council whom defined it.**

 

[emeraldisle]

To Mannyfit,

My Question: What about Daniel, does it say in the Bible that he sinned? Can i start a new teaching that Daniel was sinless??

Your Answer: Daniel himself was not a perfect. He wasn’t call “full of grace.” Second, did Daniel gave God’s real presence in him for 9 months? I think not. There are Biblical typology as well as ECF writings comparing Mary as the New Ark of the Covenant.

My Response: Please answer my question, does the Bible say that Daniel sinned? If it doesn’t can i start a new teaching that Daniel lived a sinless life?

---

My Question: Does the Bible teach us that only the God/Man could live a sinless life?

Your Answer: Scripture shows that Zechariah and Elizabeth live righteously. For we know that in Luke 1:6 they were both righteous before God walking in all the commandments and ordinances of the Lord. To be righteous is to live without sinning. Sinning is breaking God’s commandment.

My Response: Are you now saying that Zechariah and Elizabeth were sinless like Mary?

---

My Question: Why did Jesus Christ come to earth and die on the cross if it was possible for a human to be sinless and live a sinless life?

Your Answer: Jesus came into the world to saved all mankind. The gates of heaven were closed to all humanity. Even the those who live righteously before the coming of the Messiah remain in the Abode of the Dead, or Hades. When Jesus died, he preached to the dead and open open to all the saints and prophets of old.

My Response: Please answer my question, if it is possible for people to be sinless & live a sinless life then why did Jesus Christ have to die on the cross?

---

My Question: Why didn’t God give us all this “special grace” so that we could all live a sinless life? Wouldn’t this have been better than the Lord Jesus having to die such a terrible death on the cross for us?

Your Answer: The point is. Mary’s cooperated with God’s grace. By her own free will she cooperate and lived by it. It is God’s grace that is she is saved. I think that many NCC missed that point.

My Response: But why couldn’t God give us all this “special grace” to enable us to be sinless and to “cooperate” with God and live a sinless life. Why not this instead of the Lord Jesus having to die such a terrible death on the cross?

 

[Mannyfit75]

My Response: Please answer my question, does the Bible say that Daniel sinned? If it doesn’t can i start a new teaching that Daniel lived a sinless life?

This is not about Daniel. This about Mary. If you wish to speak about Daniel make another thread. The Bible doesn’t. I do believe it is possible that he live righteously in the eyes of God. If you want to find out what a righteous man is read the Letter of St. John which I will give you.

However, you can’t go around proclaiming new doctrines.

My Response: Are you now saying that Zechariah and Elizabeth were sinless like Mary?

They lived in righteous of God. However, unlike Mary, they were not conceived without sin.

My Response: Please answer my question, if it is possible for people to be sinless & live a sinless life then why did Jesus Christ have to die on the cross?

If they cooperated in God’s grace they can live sinless lives.

St. John explains this best his letter.

1 John 3:4-10

Everyone who commits sin is guilty of lawlessness; sin is lawessness. You know that he appeared to take away sins, and in him there is no sin. Any one who abides in him does not sin; any one who sins has not seen him, nor has he known him. Little children, let no one deceive you. He who does right is righteous, he who commits sin is of the devil; for the devil has sinned from the beginning. The reason the Son of God appeared was to destroy the works of the devil. Any one born of God does not commit sin; for God’s seed abides in him, and he cannot sin because he is born of God. By this it may be seen who are the children of God, and who are the children of the devil; whoever does not do right is not of God, nor does not love his brother.

So in summary, we see if we do cooperate in God’s grace. It is possible for any Christian man not to commit sin. Of course, man needs to cooperate out of his own free will. He can decide to reject to respond to God’s grace and live in sin.

My Response: But why couldn’t God give us all this “special grace” to enable us to be sinless and to “cooperate” with God and live a sinless life. Why not this instead of the Lord Jesus having to die such a terrible death on the cross?

God has given us this grace. Mary perfected by cooperating with God’s grace. That is why she live in righteousness before God. I also like to add Jesus’ death on the cross transcends time and space. Just as we who did not exist at Jesus’ time, we are saved. Likewise, Mary who live during his lifetime, was saved because she cooperated. It was through the merits of God’s grace that she is saved.

Jesus died to save us all including his mother. Second, Jesus’ death was foretold by the prophets of the OT. It is the Father’s will, not Jesus’ will.

 

[Old_Scholar]

**So Jesus died to save His mother. I guess she needed saving after all. Isn’t that what you said? **

 

[Mannyfit75]

**So Jesus died to save His mother. I guess she needed saving after all. Isn’t that what you said? **

I wrote: Jesus died to save us all including his mother. Second, Jesus’ death was foretold by the prophets of the OT. It is the Father’s will, not Jesus’ will.

We all need to be saved. She was saved before hand because God endowed her with grace. She is full of grace just as Luke 1:28 states, which Angel Gabriel said, “Hail, full of grace.”

The Greek word for this is Kecharitomene. Some translation used “highly favored one.”

‘Highly favoured’ (kecharitomene). Perfect passive participle of charitoo and means endowed with grace (charis), enriched with grace as in Ephesians. 1:6, . . . The Vulgate gratiae plena [full of grace] "is right, if it means ‘full of grace which thou hast received’; wrong, if it means ‘full of grace which thou hast to bestow’ " (A.T. Robertson, Word Pictures in the New Testament, p. 14)

“It is permissible, on Greek grammatical and linguistic grounds, to paraphrase kecharitomene as completely, perfectly, enduringly endowed with grace.” (Blass and DeBrunner, Greek Grammar of the New Testament).

However, Luke 1:28 uses a special conjugated form of “charitoo.” It uses “kecharitomene,” while Ephesians 1:6 uses “echaritosen,” which is a different form of the verb “charitoo.” Echaritosen means “he graced” (bestowed grace). Echaritosen signifies a momentary action, an action brought to pass. (Blass and DeBrunner, Greek Grammar of the New Testament, p.166). Whereas, Kecharitomene, the perfect passive participle, shows a completeness with a permanent result. Kecharitomene denotes continuance of a completed action (H. W. Smyth, Greek Grammar [Cambridge: Harvard University Press, 1968], p. 108-109, sec 1852:b; also Blass and DeBrunner, p.175).
see members.aol.com/johnprh/conception.html

And our friend’s citation of what the term denotes:

“to bestow grace, to show favor to someone, Here it is the divine favor for a special vocation…” (Fritz Rieneker/Cleon Rogers in their Linguistic Key to the Greek New Testament)

 

[qui_est_ce]

**So Jesus died to save His mother. I guess she needed saving after all. Isn’t that what you said? **

Luke 1:46-50:

46And Mary said: "My soul proclaims the greatness of the Lord;
47
my spirit rejoices in ***God my savior. ***
48
For he has looked upon his handmaid’s lowliness; behold, from now on will all ages call me blessed.
49
The Mighty One has done great things for me, and holy is his name.
50
His mercy is from age to age to those who fear him.

Mary needed a savior. She was conceived without Original Sin. Adam and Eve needed a Saviour, they were “conceived” without original sin.

 

[qui_est_ce]

Sorry Manny, your reply came while I was composing my post

 

[Mannyfit75]

Sorry Manny, your reply came while I was composing my post

It’s ok.

 

[guanophore]

Surely you realize that there is not one epxlicit verse in the entire scriptures that says she was sinless? You bear the burden of proof to demonstrate that she was sinless and that burden has never been borne nor can it for the mere fact the scriptures never teach such a doctrine.

What would happen if you just allowed people to hold this view, even though you disagree with it, and don’t see it in the scriptures? How would it rock your world if you tolerated the differences of other believers?

 

[guanophore]

If that is necessarily the case, then why would Jesus tell us to “search the Scriptures”? (John 5:39) He did not tell us to have someone else teach it to us, but to search for ourselves.

Actually, you are misunderstanding the passage, taking it out of context, and losing the meaning. Jesus was exasperated with them. This is not in the imperative mode (something they SHOULD do). It is in the declarative mode (something they are doing). They were looking at all the passages of Messiah, proving to themselves with them that He was not the Christ. What He did tell them was to “come to me, that you might have life”.

1 John 2:27 But the anointing which ye have received of him abideth in you, and ye need not that any man teach you: but as the same anointing teacheth you of all things, and is truth, and is no lie, and even as it hath taught you, ye shall abide in him.

If you notice, he is addressing this to believers. These are members of the Church. They are in community. They are in union with the Bishop.

Ezekiel 11:19 And I will give them one heart, and I will put a new spirit within you; and I will take the stony heart out of their flesh, and will give them an heart of flesh:
20 That they may walk in my statutes, and keep mine ordinances, and do them: and they shall be my people, and I will be their God.

Yes, and He did. He created a Church, and His statute is that we all be one within that Church. When the scriptures are separated from the Church, disunity results. As well as hardness of heart.

1 John 3:24 And he that keepeth his commandments dwelleth in him, and he in him. And hereby we know that he abideth in us, by the Spirit which he hath given us.

Right, and among His commandments are to be in unity, to eat His Body, and drink His blood, otherwise we will have no life within us. He never intended us to all be separated from one another.

Therefore of Christians it is written:

1 Corinthians 2:16 For who hath known the mind of the Lord, that he may instruct him? But we have the mind of Christ.

The only Guide needed is the Holy Spirit who dwells in the hearts of every believer.

No, all these passages say “us”. It is the Church, the body of believers together in unity that is guided, not every one each unto his own way.

 

[guanophore]

There is absolutely no evidence for your assertion that “she CHOSE not to sin”. If we take your method of argumentation that she chose not to sin, i can also make all kinds of claims for others who chose not to sin either and you would not be able to refute them.

Go for it! I have been saying all along that “all have sinned” is taken out of context, and does not apply to everyone. I welcome your unrefutable claims!

I think it is inappropriate for Christians to spend their energies weeding out the “sins” of others. I don’t think that is what Christ intended that we do. He wants us to focus on the speck in our own eye instead. That is why I keep asking you, instead of pitting yourself against everyone to drag Mary down, what would happen if you just decided to tolerate people that have beliefs different than yours?

 

[sodak]

If it isn’t supported by Scripture then it can’t be true still stands…Why does anyone want to speculate about something like this. Suppositions will kill your faith. There has to be a standard!

This is really the crux of the disagreement. Catholics believe that the Bible is one of the legs of the stool of faith, Protestants believe it is the only leg. We’ll never agree on this point. What you think of as suppositions we think of as Divinely guided teachings courtesy of the Holy Spirit, as Christ promised us.

We will never accept this “Sola Scriptura” standard. It flies against 2000 years of teaching and against the Bible itself, as demonstrated in this and many other threads.

 

[justasking4]

What would happen if you just allowed people to hold this view, even though you disagree with it, and don’t see it in the scriptures? How would it rock your world if you tolerated the differences of other believers?

Your response is off topic…

 

[guanophore]

Great. i feel a lot better—
Can you define what is meant by “revelations” in this context?

Is God revealing something specifically to someone?

Yes

Eph 3:3-6
4 When you read this you can perceive my insight into the mystery of Christ, 5 which was not made known to the sons of men in other generations as** it has now been revealed to his holy apostles and prophets by the Spirit**; 6 that is, how the Gentiles are fellow heirs, members of the same body, and partakers of the promise in Christ Jesus through the gospel.

 

[guanophore]

Your response is off topic…

On the contrary, you bring this attitude of intolerance to every Marian thread you can find, and rail against us with your Sola Scriptura doctrine, trying to pursuade us to reject the Divine Revelation because you cannot find it in your bible.

Worse, you misrepresent the Catholic Church in these areas, such as you did a few posts up, where you insisted that we were saying that Mary was “prevented from sin”, which is just a baseless accusation that no one here EVER said! It was pointed out to you that this is an accusation of non-Catholics, and not a Catholic doctrine.

could Mary have sinned? Yes, she chose not to do so. Suppose you give us permission to believe this if we wish? would that be a sin for you?

 

[Jzyehoshua]

No, all these passages say “us”. It is the Church, the body of believers together in unity that is guided, not every one each unto his own way.

The promises are clearly to each individual member of the body. “The manifestation of the Spirit is given to every man”… As 1 Corinthians 12 shows, each of us is an individual member of the body and gifted by the Holy Spirit accordingly so that we can all contribute uniquely to the body.

1 Corinthians 12:7 But the manifestation of the Spirit is given to every man to profit withal.
8 For to one is given by the Spirit the word of wisdom; to another the word of knowledge by the same Spirit;
9 To another faith by the same Spirit; to another the gifts of healing by the same Spirit;
10 To another the working of miracles; to another prophecy; to another discerning of spirits; to another divers kinds of tongues; to another the interpretation of tongues:
11 But all these worketh that one and the selfsame Spirit, dividing to every man severally as he will.

1 Corinthians 12:14 For the body is not one member, but many.

1 Corinthians 12:19 And if they were all one member, where were the body?

1 Corinthians 12:27 Now ye are the body of Christ, and members in particular.

Furthermore, I ask you this: If this prophecy is of the Christian church, and you believe it is for the church as a whole that it applies, not members individually, then who are the “least” and the “greatest” that are spoken of in it?

Hebrews 8:11 And they shall not teach every man his neighbour, and every man his brother, saying, Know the Lord: for all shall know me, from the least to the greatest.

 

[savedsinner]

If that is necessarily the case, then why would Jesus tell us to “search the Scriptures”? (John 5:39) He did not tell us to have someone else teach it to us, but to search for ourselves.

Jesus is not telling us to “search the scriptures” in that passage, the KJV isn’t translating that verse very well.

Jesus is saying that you “search the scriptures”

KJV - Jhn 5:39 - Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me.
King James Version 1611, 1769

NKJV - Jhn 5:39 - "You search the Scriptures, for in them you think you have eternal life; and these are they which testify of Me.
New King James Version © 1982 Thomas Nelson

NLT - Jhn 5:39 - "You search the Scriptures because you believe they give you eternal life. But the Scriptures point to me!
New Living Translation © 1996 Tyndale Charitable Trust

NIV - Jhn 5:39 - You diligently study the Scriptures because you think that by them you possess eternal life. These are the Scriptures that testify about me,

Footnote:
Or Study diligently (the imperative)
New International Version © 1973, 1978, 1984 International Bible Society

ESV - Jhn 5:39 - “You search the Scriptures because you think that in them you have eternal life; and it is they that bear witness about me,

The Holy Bible, English Standard Version © 2001 Crossway Bibles

RVR - Jhn 5:39 - Escudriñad las Escrituras; porque a vosotros os parece que en ellas tenéis la vida eterna; y ellas son las que dan testimonio de mí;

Reina-Valera copyright © 1960 Sociedades Bíblicas en América Latina; copyright © renewed 1988 United Bible Societies.

NASB - Jhn 5:39 - "You search the Scriptures because you think that in them you have eternal life; it is these that testify about Me;
New American Standard Bible © 1995 Lockman Foundation

RSV - Jhn 5:39 - You search the scriptures, because you think that in them you have eternal life; and it is they that bear witness to me;
Revised Standard Version © 1947, 1952.

ASV - Jhn 5:39 - Ye search the scriptures, because ye think that in them ye have eternal life; and these are they which bear witness of me;
American Standard Version 1901 Info

Young - Jhn 5:39 - `Ye search the Writings, because ye think in them to have life age-during, and these are they that are testifying concerning me;
Robert Young Literal Translation 1862, 1887, 1898 Info

Darby - Jhn 5:39 - Ye search the scriptures, for ye think that in them ye have life eternal, and they it is which bear witness concerning me;
J.N.Darby Translation 1890 Info

Webster - Jhn 5:39 - Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me.
Noah Webster Version 1833 Info

HNV - Jhn 5:39 - "You search the Scriptures, because you think that in them you have eternal life; and these are they which testify about me.
Hebrew Names Version 2000 Info

Vulgate - Jhn 5:39 - scrutamini scripturas quia vos putatis in ipsis vitam aeternam habere et illae sunt quae testimonium perhibent de me
Jerome’s Latin Vulgate 405 A.D. Info

And Jesus did tell us to have someone to teach us

Matthew 28:19-20
Go therefore and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit, teaching them to observe all that I have commanded you; and lo, I am with you always, to the close of the age."

 

[Church_Militant]

**So Jesus died to save His mother. I guess she needed saving after all. Isn’t that what you said? **

Well Gee… I think that is what we have been trying to get past that rock hard preconceived prejudice and into your cranium all along OS!

Here, let me turn you on to an article that will cover this better than I can.
ARK OF THE NEW COVENANT
By PATRICK MADRID